New Stargazer looking for equipment advice!

[Geospacial]

Hi All!

I am new to all this and have been recently inspired by the excellent BBC series Stagazing Live.

I am doing some research into buying my first telescope but am a little unsure what I should get. I am trying to stay clear of the go-to computerised stsyems as I think it is important to know how to do it myself. The only things in the sky I know are the Sun, the Moon and the Plough!! I think I probably have a budget of up to around £200 which seems to be putting me in the realms of the Starwatcher 130's; I am particulary interested in the 130P. This comes with an equitorial mount. I have also been considering the 150P Dobsonian. I understand that the 150 will produce better images due to its wider aperture, but I am a little unsure of how much better. I would like to try and see as much as i can, particularly the planets, such as Saturn and its rings, galaxies etc. I have seen hubble type photos of such objects and I realise i won't be seeing those sort of images. Will the image of Saturn be quite clear or will it just be a white smudge in the optics? Again, i realise this could depend on the quality of the eyepiece etc.

One thing that is pushing me more to the 130P is that I would be interested in doing some astro photography in the future and I have read the the EQ mount is more suitable for this as it is easier to track the object once set up correctly. I think it is also easier to add upgrades to this setup such as a tracking motor.

Is it worth the extra £100 to upgrade to the 150P on EQ mount? I would rather have the best telescope I can get now that will last for a while, rather than getting a more basic one and wishing I had something else 6 months later!!

I may pop down to a local astro club in Rickmansworth and also into my local astronomy shop in Tring over the weekend to have a look.

Any advice would be most welcome, and my apologies if this is all a bit repetitive!!

Alistair

[esxste]

Hi Alistair, 

I'd advise having a look at http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/205175-astronomy-telescopes-for-beginners/ might be a decent deal there for you.

Read through the sticky threads at the top of the forum that give plenty advice to new astronomers looking to buy their first scope. If after that you're sure you want to buy; you do seem to have a good grasp of the basic concepts. 

If it were me, I'd try get the best telescope first, learn the ropes of visual astronomy, then look at upgrading the mount to support astrophotography.

As an aside; the 130p comes with an EQ2 mount I believe, while an EQ2 mount, it's quite light and does tend to wobble a bit in the wind. I've found a heavy weight like a bag of sand sitting on the accessory tray helps stabalise it, but the long shot is for long exposure AP, you'll want a better mount. 

[AndyWB]

Hi ya, and welcome!

There's a very good thread on here that gives you a good idea of the sorts of things you can see: http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/196278-what-can-i-expect-to-see/

It seems pretty close to my experience. I find that with Saturn, well, it's obviously Saturn - the rings are very visible, and I can sometimes see banding on the surface - but it is small. It's pretty close to what's shown in that thread. I prefer Jupiter though (which is really good at the moment!)

I would say that visual astronomy and astrophotography are nearly different activities - and the photography end can need some very deep pockets. It might be worth trying visual for a while to start with, and looking at photography later. They've also got quite different priorities - I gather photography is about having a rock-solid mount, and aperture is less important, for example.

"rather than getting a more basic one and wishing I had something else 6 months later!!" - Don't think of it so much as wanting something 'better' in 6 months - I can guarantee you'll want something different - but try and plan it for something 'complementary'. Many people have multiple scopes - such as a 'grab and go scope' (normally something smaller, quick to set up) and a larger scope too.

[Geospacial]

Thanks for the advice to both of you. I shall have a read of the suggested threads.

One further question - If I were to get a Dobsonian such as the skyliner 200P, is it possible to mount that tube on an EQ mount later down the line that would be more suitable for photography?

[AndyWB]

As long as it isn't a FlexTube one, I believe so, yes. Though it'd be quite big, and I get the impression that refractors are more popular for photography. Not that I've ever done that - photography, or mounting large Newtonians on an EQ mount.

[Blazar]

Hi Alistair,

Have you considered Binoculars? lots to see in a large field of view (FoV). I started with Bins, and a copy of Turn left at Orion...and of course the Stellarium free software product. not all people use these, but for people not used to how a telescope works, and targets to use then they are ideal companions. 

I have to agree that the thread by Qualia over setting expectations is superb, and might help you understand exactly what you are likely to see, and as he states, its about time at the eyepiece, not a fleeting 10 minute view, but a few hours sometimes following the object to tease the best views out of it, and of course our turbulent atmosphere.

The time with binoculars will help you learn the night sky (along with TLaO), whilst saving up for that important next step (of first scope). thats all it is...another step....and more will follow as you find what you really enjoy looking at and hunting for in the heavens. The first telescope question pops up a lot, and its a pleasure to try and help new people into the hobby, but the biggest advice we can offer is to have patience with all aspects of it, including that initial purchase ;-)

if you want to take photos through your scope you can do that straight away via a small compact camera (Afocal) at the eyepiece. its a lot of fun and is quite addictive. If you want to see what a small 4" refractor can do, have a look at my gallery....not great but a lot of fun.

I wish you all the best and clear skies ahead.

Regards

[CodnorPaul]

You can quite easily mount a 200P on an NEQ6 and it is quite stable for visual (not sure on a HEQ5 - mount would handle payload but wind etc.), and from there do basic AP if you so wish but ideally look with the eyes first, it is amazing how much you can see.

I would definitely advise going for the 200P as a minimum starting point - less than that I fear would lead to aperture fever fairly quickly, but 8" aperture will keep you going for some time.

[Geospacial]

Thanks for the reply's!

Understood about the binoculars. My father-in-law has a goodish set so I think i may borrow his over the weekend (hopefully clear skies!!) and get a copy of turn right at orion.

I think that a Dobsonian would be the best bet for me. Something I can just take outside, set up and go (after cooling!!). I didn't actually mean the 200P, but the 150P. I may see if I can stretch to the 200 as I think that would keep me happy for a good while and it seems to have had very good reviews.

Blazer, I had a look at your photos taken through your 4" and I am pretty impressed, so hopefully I can do something similar whichever Dob i decide to get. I have a DSLR, but I think the point and shoot option would be more up my street at the moment.

[Paulo83]

If you can stretch your budget, go for the 200P. The extra aperture will make quite a bit of difference visually. You certainly won't want to change your scope then for a long time.

If I were you, I would invest in upgrading eyepieces to get better visuals out of your scope, rather than spending on astrophotography. Get used to the sky and your scope first. You can always consider upgrading/modifying for astrophotography use in the future.

Some good advice above about binoculars. A great way to learn the basics of the sky, especially with a copy of Turn Left At Orion at hand.

Good luck with your choice!

[Geospacial]

Thanks Paulo

I think this is the route I am going to go down.

Thanks for everyone's advice.

[Avocette]

If you can stretch your budget, go for the 200P. The extra aperture will make quite a bit of difference visually. You certainly won't want to change your scope then for a long time.

I'd just like to issue a stargazers health warning - this last statement may well not apply if you are gripped by aperture fever!

But seriously the 200p Dob is a great scope - just make sure you know how physically big it is when it comes to storage.

[brantuk]

Hi Alistair. A visit to Tring is a great idea in the first instance, followed by a visit to your local astro soc so you can see how different telescopes perfom.

In terms of your budget I would recommend a good look at the second hand market where good savings can be had. You should be able to get a 150P on EQ3-2 mount for around £200 up to two years old and in excellent condition. At a later date you can add an RA (right ascension) tracking motor for some elementary imaging (when budget allows). The mount suffers minor vibration so "damping" measures will be needed for imaging.

Alternatively, for observing only, a 200P dob should come in at a similar price, and makes a great imaging scope further down the line when you have around £1k to spend on a suitable mount. You're entirely correct - a good solid, equatorial, tracking mount is pretty much essential for imaging, so do familiarise yourself with both types of mount (dob and eq) before buying.

Either scope will show Saturn and Jupiter and a host of deep sky objects, but they will be small and there are limits to magnification that depend not only on the scope, but also on the viewing conditions on the night (or the "seeing"). As a rough guide - most people view planets at around 180x to 200x on a "good seeing" night in the UK. Dso's (galaxies, nebulae, etc) are normally viewed at lower powers under 100x and can be as low as 30x or 40x depending on the object.

For observing - the larger the aperture, the deeper into space you can see and - for imaging, the f-ratio is important - the lower the better for dso's (f-5 or less). The exception is planets that will demand a higher f-ratio of f-10 or above, and they can additionally be imaged or viewed with a motorised alt/az mount.

You'll save a third to a half buying second hand and may get extras thrown in with the right deal - and you'll find most astronomers keep their gear in very good or excellent condition. Hth

[PlanetGazer]

If you are really considering this as a hobby, than take it from a person who was exactly in your position. You will quickly grow out of the 130 scope. I have the 130M , same as 130p , you get an extra RDF and a motor with it. I wish I was less stubborn and bought what the majority recommended which is the 200p Dob. not sure if Dobs are good for astro photography, but I think this would be the good choice if you won't take astro photography seriously. price wise it's not to far from the 130. 

you can see Jupiter just fine with the four moons with the 130p, but pleasingly better with the 200p as I observed them using both scopes. But don't expect much, check the pics in this topic: http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/196278-what-can-i-expect-to-see/ 

[PlanetGazer]

Not to mention that the EQ2 that comes with the 130 is not as stable as I thought it would be, it's average to be honest. 

[lethbridgeryan]

Hi There

I was in the same boat as you are a couple of weeks ago and until I saw first hand how big the 200P Dob was I was dead set on purchasing one. I went for a SkyMax 127 MAK GoTo in the end from a specialist who gave me it for £290 (£70 off) because the box was damaged in transit over Xmas.

I think in the end once I get into the hobby more I will purchase a Dob for home but at the min I found the 127 MAK a good size and allround scope to start my Astro fix.

[Geospacial]

Thanks for the further advice guys!

I will be going to Tring Astronomy shop tomorrow and will certainly be looking at the size of the 200p Dob. I need to see if the dob base can fit under the spare bed - the tube will!

Its all very confusing but i am sure once I have seen them in the flesh and maybe visited the local astro club in Rickmansworth, it should all become clear!

Thanks again for the advice and hope everyone has a great weekend!

Alistair

[esxste]

Not to mention that the EQ2 that comes with the 130 is not as stable as I thought it would be, it's average to be honest. 

As tip, try adding some weight to it... I use a bag of sand on the accessory tray

[PlanetGazer]

Thanks for the further advice guys!

I will be going to Tring Astronomy shop tomorrow and will certainly be looking at the size of the 200p Dob. I need to see if the dob base can fit under the spare bed - the tube will!

Its all very confusing but i am sure once I have seen them in the flesh and maybe visited the local astro club in Rickmansworth, it should all become clear!

Thanks again for the advice and hope everyone has a great weekend!

Alistair

 Good decision, would be nice if you can try them, it'll help ya decide. 

As tip, try adding some weight to it... I use a bag of sand on the accessory tray

 Simple yet a great idea! I shall try that. 

[esxste]

 Simple yet a great idea! I shall try that. 

I'd like to take credit for it, but it was something I picked up from SGL. It doesn't fix the wobble completely, but it does help alot!

[Jeff Laurents]

Hello Alistair,

Like you I am getting into Astronomy, and researching to decide what equipment to buy for a budget of under £300. Also, like you I was fascinated by the recent Stargazing Live series, and recorded them.

I am in Ramsgate and hope to join in a local Starwatching group. So I look forward to what I guess will be a steep learning curve, as I am a total beginner, and will need to start looking at the night sky and star maps to begin to identify the stars.

I forsee the need to spend lots of time on this and only hope that my partner will understand my new interest and not feel neglected. I guess I will hope that she can share my interest and join with me in some of the Stargazing activities.

[Geospacial]

Hi Jeff

I am really looking forward to getting my first scope too.....whatever it may be! It's all very confusing learning all this new vocabulary and what does what.

I am hoping that it is something that I can mainly do from my back garden. There is a little light pollution, but not loads and hopefully my wife will join me outside to look at what I find. I am slightly concerned though, as she seems to think she will see hublble-esque views........which she won't.!!

I am looking forward to my trip to the local astronomy shop in Tring, and you never know, I might come away with a brand spanking new 'scope!!

I wish you all the best with the hobby and hope you get that telescope and start learning the sky's soon!!

Alistair

[Charic]

Thanks for the further advice guys!

I will be going to Tring Astronomy shop tomorrow and will certainly be looking at the size of the 200p Dob. I need to see if the dob base can fit under the spare bed - the tube will!

Its all very confusing but i am sure once I have seen them in the flesh and maybe visited the local astro club in Rickmansworth, it should all become clear!

Thanks again for the advice and hope everyone has a great weekend!

Alistair

Geospacial.....Hi,  @  52x76cm for the base alone. Assembled the telescope stands about 132cm, and floor space required is about 53cm. My 200P sits covered, fully assembled, ready to lift into garden when required.

[carastro]

I would strongly recommend that you try to get along to Astrofest on 7 or 8th February in Kensington in London, where you can take a look at telescopes first hand and chat to the traders who will know all about how they work.  However you must also remember that they will be wanting to recommend their own product, but generally most traders will also give you good advice. 

http://europeanastrofest.com/

I have been down the same route firstly as a visual astronomer and then into astro-imaging.  I admire the fact that you want to find your way around the sky and for this reason and economy a Dobsonian would suit you very well.  I have never owned own but seen them in action.  I think trying to use a manual set up from an Equatorial mount is quite tricky as it never seems to go the way you want it to (I have done that one). 

However Astro-photography really needs an EQ tracking and GOTO mount capable of guiding as you've already summised and you can put a large Newtonian onto an NEQ6 Mount (around £900 - £1000) but I believe getting focus with a camera can be an issue.

I have been through several set ups and re-sold items as I progressed (there is a good second hand market in Astro imaging) This forum's own classified (when you have been here for a while) and UKAstrobuysell, if you look after your stuff you can normally get 2/3 of the price back when you want to move on.

http://www.astrobuysell.com/uk/index.php

My journey and comments:

Newtonian telescope on a manual EQ mount (fabulous views but difficult to navigate)

ETX105 (GOTO tracking maksutov cassegrain).  Great for visual and planetary imaging, but no good for deep sky imaging as it is an Alt/Az mount without guiding capability.

CG5 GT EQ mount and Small Wiliam Optics refractor (started imaging, worked well)

NEQ6 and various refractors plus Newtonian Skywatcher 200PDS (PDS is designed for imaging to overcome focus problems)

I don't regret any of the scopes I bought and managed to re-sell everything.

As stated above, if you want to get into imaging it is very costly, a big learning  curve but oh so very rewarding when you start producing those images.

You don't necessarily need a really powerful scope for imaging as many of the objects are huge and you'd only get a small bit in the field of view (FOV) such as the Andromeda Galaxy, Rosette nebula, Orion nebula, Heart Nebula etc etc, most people have more than one imaging scope so they can get the small objects and the large objects and a different one again for planetary imaging.

Best of luck, will be interested to hear how you get on.

Carole

[swag72]

Visually, a dob is the way to go as I understand it. Going to a local astro group and also a real bricks and mortar shop is a good place to start - So I applaud your willpower in waiting and doing it all the right way round!!

If you are wanting to look at AP further down the line, then I'd suggest looking into keeping the dob for visual and getting a dedicated AP rig. Visual and imaging are not compatible as far as scopes go generally and compromises will have to be made along the way in either discipline if you only want one setup.

As am imager myself, I wish you well in AP - whatever you decide to do

[Geospacial]

A quick update.......

Firstly thanks to all of you for your advice. It has been very helpful to me. I have now bought a scope. It may not be what you would have bought but it suits me well and I got a nice little deal on it from Tring.

After seeing the skyline dob in the flesh I felt it was a bit too big for storing....mainly due to the base. I (and my wife!!) have a baby due in June so having it stood up in a corner is not ideal and it would be difficult to store the base in a cupboard etc. Therefore, I bought a Skywatcher 150p on an eq3-2 mount. I was a little unsure of the mount, but after having a good familiarisation session, I find it quite intuitive. May be its due to my day job being a Geospatial Engineer and using theodolites all day!!

I have just had first light with it viewing Jupiter and it's moons. I am totally amazed and chuffed to bits with what I have bough! I could see loads of detail through the 25mm and then the 10 and then more when I put the x2 Barlow on. This is just from my back garden with a fair amount of orange glow and people's house lights on. I can't wait to take it out to ashridge or the Dunstable Downs on a clear night!!! I am assuming that the eye pieces are relatively standard so I may look into upgrading those once I am a bit more experienced.

Again thanks for your help

Alistair