Proffessional astronomers?

[Azure]

Hey all, this is just a general query directed towards people who have done, or still do, some form of astronomy that's career related. To anyone that has or still does, how did you get into professional astronomy, and what do you do in it? I ask because I am at that stage where I still have some time to decide which path I should take when it comes to careers, and am looking into taking astronomy beyond just a hobby and pursuing it further academically.

Any advice/accounts would be appreciated(:

- AZ

[Bizibilder]

I'm not an expert in higher education but as far as I know its Maths primarily with a little physics thrown in (and maybe some Chemistry). But I suspect for a career, a degree in Maths and/or Physics would be essential.

[George Jones]

I am not a professional astronomer, but I have worked with professional astronomers. All of the professional astronomers with whom I have worked are/were professors of physics, but there may be other paths into professional astronomy.

For a year, I had an office across the hall from a professional astronomer with whom I was very friendly. His advice: "Get a B.Sc. in physics, and then do a Ph.D. in Astronomy/Astrophysics." He had professional observing sessions at telescopes in various parts of the world.

My experience is in North America and strictly within the academic world. Others here may have advice on other paths.

[Marine Bio]

Although I can't add anything about Astronomy directly I just wanted to add something about academia and careers. Firstly it is increasingly common in this day and age for people to have multiple careers and not be stuck for a job for life. This notion of running out of time is in essence non-sensical when it comes to academia. As long as your mind is working well you can be any age. To add to this the most succesful PhD students in my department at work are those in their 30's and 40's. I think that having life experience gives them a great advantage when it comes to dealing with people and very importantly - having some perspective! For example, I share an office with a PhD student who is in his early 40's and has for over 15 years been a train driver. He then took night school and got some A levels, re-mortgaged the house and got his BSc. and is now in his final PhD year. Just goes to show its never too late. Not ment to put you off in anyway, just saying there is no rush! Good luck with whatever degree route you choose to take.

[Capricorn]

"Get a B.Sc. in physics, and then do a Ph.D. in Astronomy/Astrophysics."

Guess George is exactly right, that is the obvious path.

Next Astronomy is NOT looking through a scope.

Many times it is constructing mathematical models on a computer., recently had a talk by a research PhD and that was what they were doing, generating mathematical models on a computer from the data supplied by one of the ESA satellites.

If you want to "use" or "work with" scopes become an engineer in something like low temperature cooling of sensors. Just not many opening will occur.

I would go as far as saying that to be a professional astronomer you do not need to use a scope, look through a scope or have any idea about the stars.

Find a university with an astronomy school and if possible pay them a visit on an open day.

[Caldwell 14]

I'm not an expert in higher education but as far as I know its Maths primarily with a little physics thrown in (and maybe some Chemistry). But I suspect for a career, a degree in Maths and/or Physics would be essential.

I'm not an expert in higher education either but as far as I know professional is spelt with only one f.

[Azure]

Thanks for all the help guys!

I have been doing my own research, and you guys have been a great help in confirming some of what I've found - for example, the need of maths and physics, and the emphasis of modern astronomy on maths and models rather than actual stargazing. My A level choices are the three sciences and maths, so there's no worry for me there. I think looking around at universities etc. is a great idea (especially since I live near Cambridge ) so I will look around for local astronomer openings/groups at schools/unis etc.

Any further advice or stories are welcome!

N.B - Sorry about the typo - I meant to say *professional (with one f not two)

- AZ

[SFlowers]

I teach maths to A level - if you ever get stuck give me a shout

[Chris]

For years I wanted to be a Professional Astronomer, so at the age of 22 after doing my engineering apprentership I did a degree in Astronomy at Hert's Uni. I quickly learnt as mentioned above that the Accademic side of Astronomy was all about the math, Physics and IT, although once a month or so we spent a few hours at the bayfordbury observatory where we collected data via their 16" Meade LX200's for analysis, and if the weather was bad we'd sit in the control centre and analyse data given to us. So I didn't get to do much hands on Astronomy until my final year when I decided to undertake a practical final year project which was to site test the equipment at the observatory using photometric analysis of variable stars and the newly discovered (at the time) exoplanet HD209458b. I've always been quite practical and good at working with my hands rather than particularly accademic therefore I did well in my final year practical project recieving a 1st for my project and a Uni prize, however I struggled with the higher level maths thus only managed a 2:1 (non Hons) overall in the end due to failing a maths module, thus my dream of being a professional astronomer was over:(

based on my above experiences I would recommend doing an Astronomy/Astrophysics/physics course if you are very good at maths and physics, I particularly recommend getting good at Calculus which is basically a language for working out the area and gradient of curves, particurly 3D space. Get a good head start on calculus before you start a course and it will stand you in good stead:). If you are more a practical hands on astronomer like myself then you might end up torturing youself trying to keep your head above water with the math. By the end of my degree I had forgotten most of the constellations and replaced them with numerous equations and derivations:D

To become a pro you need a 2:1 hons degree then do an MSc, then Phd and post Doc placement so its a long road and only a few make it. I met my wife on my course and she was bright enough to go on to get an MSc in Habital zones around K-M type stars after which she was very lucky to bag a job as Editorial staff at the Royal Astronomical Society so it is possible to work in an astronomy related job without a post doc:) most of my peers ended going down the route of Physics teacher, MOD, banking, accounting etc.

In a nutshell if you want to go for it learn lots of Calculus basically:D!!

I wish you luck in whatever you decide to do:)

[dph1nm]

You can still do 'real' observing as a professional, but much stuff now comes either from satellites or from public surveys, so there isn't as much as there used to be (to the extent that we - Durham Univ that is - now send some of our phd students on special observing courses just to gain some experience!).

I did a physics degree (you would need a good 2.1 or 1st these days by the way), then a phd in astronomy, which consisted of several weeks sitting at a telescope - but that was 30 years ago. Having said that, you do get unrivalled resources at your finger-tips. I currently have access to CCD imaging from the VST-ATLAS and Pan-STARRS surveys - plenty of opportunity for a producing a few RGB colour pictures on the side!

I would probably say go for a physics degree with some astronomy in it, rather than doing an dedicated astro degree. Keeps your options open that way.

NigelM (who is a professional)

[onesmallstep]

Hi

Would it be possible to achieve your ambitions via the Pro-Am route? By this I mean can you gain experience at the amateur level and then build on it in a semi-professional way such as astroimaging, science communication and public outreach rather than the more traditional academic route which no longer guarantees professional success. This way you would also bypass the scary levels of debt most students leave uni with.

[Azure]

Appreciate the info guys! Some interesting stories up there^

Definitely learned a lot of useful stuff from this, and I'll be sure to pursue astronomy with all the necessary (and maybe extra) qualifications, while keeping my options open. Still got a long way to go, but I'm in no hurry!

Thanks again all!

- AZ

[assasincz]

I don't know if this has been posted, but there you go:

Ep. 67: Building a Career in Astronomy | Astronomy Cast

[x6gas]

I have a degree in Physics and Astronomy (from Southampton University) and that involved a field trip working at Izana Observatory on Tenerife with professional astronomers sat at telescopes - actually looking at monitors in the control room but still pretty cool. There was a lot of solar astronomy at that observatory, but still plenty of people staying up all night (and playing cards if conditions were too humid / dusty / cloudy - sound familiar!)

As said above you'll need a physics degree and that means being pretty adept at maths but professional astronomy isn't all mathematical modelling!

Like starfox's wife I ended up in academic publishing, initially in physics but then in science more widely (and I love it!)

[Caldwell 14]

I teach maths to A level - if you ever get stuck give me a shout

I teach Health and Social Care, if you ever fancy working in a care home, give me a shout

[che guevara]

If hes doing an Astronomy Degree he probably will !

[Folkert]

Hi guys, interesting reading, and though I realize this post has been going for a while, I still add my 5 cents:

I was in the same position 40 years ago: I was crazy about astronomy, and i selected my high school subjects accordingly: Math, more math, physics, programming (new in that that time), chemistry.... But then, just before I was to start, I realized that I was OK in math, but not brilliant, like my buddy. So I went for a different direction, that got me into business, no regrets.

Now, after I turned 50, I got myself (again) a nice telescope, and wow! has the range of available astro-toys increased! Also I started reading again more on astronomy, cosmology and particle physics. And all the time when it started to get interesting the author would state: "Now it would take a lot of math to explain this, and I will spare you that cruelty." At a certain moment (some 18 months ago) I could not bear that anymore, and signed up for the UK Open University: First course was an intro in mathematics (just to check that the grey cells still work) and I got 100% on that one. I am now studying hard for the Astronomy course, after that we will have "Exploring Science". I expect the complete BSc to take some 5 - 6 years (and a lot of cash!). After that I plan to apply for the MSc study here at Turku University (SW Finland) which is in English (my Finnish is not very good!). I could be ready with that when I go in pension, which should then give me plenty of time to spend on.... yet another PhD! I know, big dreams, but don't we all have big dreams, us astro-freaks?

On another note, some comments regarding doing true research and enjoying the stars, working with telescopes etc. If you look at the work that is done by amateurs in e.g. the AAVSO, that is very close to professional. We have close to where I live an amateur astronomy club with 2 16" Meade scopes (one of which is fully automated), top-of-the-bill SBIG CCD cameras, a radio telescope, and an impressive list of discoveries and publications. What I am saying is that you don't need to become a professional to do some very serious astronomy work!

So: let us know what your choice will be, and keep us posted on your experiences and progress if the choice is astronomy (or math, or physics) as an academic study.

Success and enjoy!

* Folkert/

[Beulah]

Although I can't add anything about Astronomy directly I just wanted to add something about academia and careers. Firstly it is increasingly common in this day and age for people to have multiple careers and not be stuck for a job for life. This notion of running out of time is in essence non-sensical when it comes to academia. As long as your mind is working well you can be any age. To add to this the most succesful PhD students in my department at work are those in their 30's and 40's. I think that having life experience gives them a great advantage when it comes to dealing with people and very importantly - having some perspective! For example, I share an office with a PhD student who is in his early 40's and has for over 15 years been a train driver. He then took night school and got some A levels, re-mortgaged the house and got his BSc. and is now in his final PhD year. Just goes to show its never too late. Not ment to put you off in anyway, just saying there is no rush! Good luck with whatever degree route you choose to take.

I really need to hear this as I am considering a career change and I am hitting the big four-oh next year. Thanks.

[JB80]

On a further note to that, depending on ones interests it may be worth further investigation into other areas in the space industry. I mean take a look at a couple of the websites that advertise space careers and see if there is anything that may interest you or you could do with only a year or two of further education. The esa, eso and loads of other EU agencies are always looking for people not to mention that there are lots of private companies too. They seem to always be after software engineers, developers, engineers through to admin as well as lots of other jobs wcience based or technical based.

You just never know who is making parts for the next rover and such, if you are interested in the space industry then it's something to keep in mind and there are always jobs.

JPL are constantly looking for people too, it's just a shame you need to be a US citizen or have full time residency to work there but how good would it be to say you work for NASA?

[Jove]

Although I can't add anything about Astronomy directly I just wanted to add something about academia and careers. Firstly it is increasingly common in this day and age for people to have multiple careers and not be stuck for a job for life. This notion of running out of time is in essence non-sensical when it comes to academia. As long as your mind is working well you can be any age. To add to this the most succesful PhD students in my department at work are those in their 30's and 40's. I think that having life experience gives them a great advantage when it comes to dealing with people and very importantly - having some perspective! For example, I share an office with a PhD student who is in his early 40's and has for over 15 years been a train driver. He then took night school and got some A levels, re-mortgaged the house and got his BSc. and is now in his final PhD year. Just goes to show its never too late. Not ment to put you off in anyway, just saying there is no rush! Good luck with whatever degree route you choose to take.

Great post, really inspirational! There's hope for me yet!

[KevUU]

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On a further note to that, depending on ones interests it may be worth further investigation into other areas in the space industry. I mean take a look at a couple of the websites that advertise space careers and see if there is anything that may interest you or you could do with only a year or two of further education. The esa, eso and loads of other EU agencies are always looking for people not to mention that there are lots of private companies too. They seem to always be after software engineers, developers, engineers through to admin as well as lots of other jobs wcience based or technical based.

You just never know who is making parts for the next rover and such, if you are interested in the space industry then it's something to keep in mind and there are always jobs.

This is a good point - I work as a software engineer developing onboard software for satellites; we're a private company but most of our work is for ESA, directly or indirectly. As I say my area is onboard software but we also do ground systems (for mission control) and research for ESOC, also some robotics and autonomy research which is helping to set future directions for ESA rover missions and should end up on Mars someday (I won't go into Exomars politics though!). The latter is really interesting if you're looking at getting into things, as the UK is recognised as having the best people for autonomy and robotics and ESA are setting up a technology centre over here to do just that.

At the end of the day I could see it as 'just software', after all a lot of it is still just moving data from A to B - and I work with some people who do just that. But it's software in space! I'm working for ESA! You have to worry about radiation effects on the processors and the memories, and about comms availability due to only having an 8 minute comms window per 90 minute orbit, for example, and so despite the stresses and politics it's still pretty cool. Later this year I have my first launch, which will be scary and exciting at the same time.

So while I'm not a professional astronomer, I am a professional who works in the space industry. There are plenty of jobs in that category - software, hardware, integration, mission planning, research, surely many more - across telecomms, unis, private companies and of course ESA. So perhaps it's more accessible than you might imagine, if you allow the parameters to widen a little.

[x6gas]

Later this year I have my first launch, which will be scary and exciting at the same time.

Good luck with that. I'll await my invite to the launch :-)

[ollypenrice]

Science is always in need of interpreters for the general public, which might be another line you could look at. There is a need for properly trained science journalists and correspondents since many journalists have academic backgrounds on the arts side and are, to say the least, not at their best when covering science.

I now find myself a professional amateur astonomer as have others before me (and rather better known!) I don't think I've ever been happier.

Olly

[claire1985]

I hope I don't get slated for this but wanted to share my experience,

I too looked into astronomy as a career, did my research found I needed to get maths and physics under my belt, shouldn't be a problem then I read an interesting fact whist looking for jobs. Only 20% of people with a astronomy related degree actually have jobs in astronomy.

I googled astronomy jobs to get an idea of what they were looking for and to be honest there were so few jobs, most were engineering.

Just another side to the story I wanted to add. I am in no way saying don't peruse this by the way. If you can make it then that's incredible.

Good luck in whatever you do :-)

X

[Capricorn]

I suspect that the term "professional astronomer" is the problem.

What is meant by it?

Previous post said they were at an observatory with the astronomers in the control room. There is a good chance that these people were engineers possibly in another field managing the equipment and collecting the data that is then sent to the "professional astronomer" who is at a university elsewhere in the world.

These scopes are not maintained and run by astronomers they are run and maintained by mechanical engineers, electrical engineers and computer engineers. If the sensor in the scope goes wrong it is not an astronomer that fixes it, when the cooling fails and the noise rises too much it is not an astronomer that fixes it. That server collecting the data is maintained and kept running by an IT guy.

Think that the first thing to sort out is does a person mean a "professional astronomer" or a "professional working in the field of astronomy".