Street lighting-U turn?

[SteveNickolls]

Today our local BBC radio station has made news about the county council deciding to turn some street lights back on during the night- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-18584612 The county council had done a lot of homework before implementing a four year programme of turning off or dimming street lights late at night and into the early morning. The decision to turn some street lights back on in Bingham and Keyworth follows local pressure from residents (an 800 signature petition was cited). The council had always said it would listen to issues and respond accordingly. From what I have heard the worries are the usual fears of the dark and fear of crime (one unfortunate 19 year old girl was attacked earlier in the year I recall). I would be interested to hear if any other forum members have had similar experiences in their areas or is it all plain sailing? We were due to have our street lighting dimmed/turned off in October and I'm hoping this will not sound a general rethink on the whole programme across the county.

[DirkSteele]

That is a shame. There is always going to be the conflict of interest between those who wish to preserve the night sky / environmentalist concerns, and those of citizens with safety concerns. I recall reading a dark sky article in Sky & Telescope several years ago which actually pointed to evidence from studies in the US which showed that bright street lighting did not reduce crime, and because of the extreme glare may actually increase it.

[Carbon Brush]

Well what a loads of wimps in Bingham & Keyworth. Frightened of the dark!

Of course we all know that nobody has ever been attacked in a lit area, or in daylight.

Seriously. I think this needs to be addressed at County Council and if necessary by legislation from Westminster.

Bright villages should pay tax more than dark villages.

Only fair after all.

I will compose a note to my County councillor in the next few days.

Reaching for hard hat now for raising a contentious issue (if i know what the word means).

[James]

If only they could get a local petition together with more than 800 saying turn the lights off...

James

[jeremy1]

How strange. I read an article in a newspaper that the local police forces were actually noticing a drop in crime figures in areas that the lights had been turned off. They reckon that burgulars actually need light to see what they are doing and if they had to use a torch they would be more noticeable. It appears that they are afraid of the dark too. So in my mind they'd best get petitioning to get them turned off again pretty sharpish.

[JamesF]

Around here it is generally considered that the only benefit of security lighting is to make a thief's life easier. We don't have any street lighting. Someone wandering around with a torch is likely to attract attention, whereas if a thief strolls boldly up to a building despite the security lights no-one pays any attention, probably assuming they have a good reason to be there.

James

[Vlad]

I have long held the belief that security lighting is anything but, except maybe in favour of the wrongdoers.. My theory goes like this:

Security lights provide blinding light, also dark shadows where anyone can hide, in SECURITY!. A torch, (very bright nowadays, and long lasting light) gives the holder the ability to seek out dark shadowy areas. In my parlance, the man with the flash light is king. The man with the security ligh is also king.....ASking to be robbed. .

[earth titan]

How strange. I read an article in a newspaper that the local police forces were actually noticing a drop in crime figures in areas that the lights had been turned off. They reckon that burgulars actually need light to see what they are doing and if they had to use a torch they would be more noticeable. It appears that they are afraid of the dark too. So in my mind they'd best get petitioning to get them turned off again pretty sharpish.

It seems to be a well established fact, with a number of academic papers on the subject. It also reduces antisocial misbehavior, as it needs light to be obnoxious.

[RogerTheDodger]

How strange. I read an article in a newspaper that the local police forces were actually noticing a drop in crime figures in areas that the lights had been turned off. They reckon that burgulars actually need light to see what they are doing and if they had to use a torch they would be more noticeable. It appears that they are afraid of the dark too. So in my mind they'd best get petitioning to get them turned off again pretty sharpish.

This was probably the article http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/Burglars-afraid-dark-Crime-falls-Bristol-street/story-13952633-detail/story.html

[glowjet]

In this day and age most people have their own security lighting, as lot of Astronomers know to their cost, all or most side road lighting has been improved by the Local Authorities, but everybody seems to forget that most law abiding citizens are in bed by 12.00 Midnight, leaving the lights to burn all night." We shall all get burgled or attacked", is the first line of defence that is made, should there be a suggestion to reduce the lighting hours, but Jeremy1 has mentioned a paper article that this may not be the case. It was not many years ago that all Council side road lighting was lit on a Dusk to dawn basis. Were there any more cases of Law braking at night than there are now ? I wonder, as it should be possible to do a survey from Police files

John.

[SteveNickolls]

Thanks everyone for your responses. Thanks also David for considering writing to your county councillor, I must do likewise. There seems so much misunderstanding 'out there' amongst the general public equating lighting with safety regardless of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. What really stung listening to the radio was that the BBC were not looking to provide what I would consider a balanced or factual report-they seemed instead eager to spotlight the 'difficult' position of the chairman of the county council's highways and transport committee and the fact he was councillor for one of the wards involved.

Cheers,

Steve

[laser_jock99]

"Street lights in two Nottinghamshire towns will be switched on again after hundreds of people signed petitions against switch-off plans"

This goes back to my point about writing to your council with words of encouragment if there is a local switch off. They will sure as anything get way more complaints from the 'moaning minnie' brigrade.

[hunterknox]

My problem with most of these street lighting trials is that the evaluation seems to be sketchy at best. The crime and traffic accident statistics are available so in theory you could have a proper look at whether adverse events increase, decrease or become displaced, but that doesn't seem to be the done thing.

[Monty]

Will be interesting to see how councils cope with power costs as the years go by. Energy is an easy "fix" when it comes to reduced budgets.

[umadog]

There are statistics out there that suggest that street lights don't cut crime. The problem is that people often don't believe statistics when they contradict something they hold dear. Any crime that takes place following a switch-off can be blamed on the lack of lights and there's nothing anyone can say that will change people's minds on that. Asking people to wait whilst you measure average crime over an extended period of time isn't going to work. People don't place much credence on averages of this sort. Anecdote is weighted more strongly, as is whether the incident happened in their area, to someone they know, or whether the incident was very unpleasant. It's because people think like this that we've had these recent vaccine scares and otherwise reputable newspapers telling their readers that WiFi causes cancer.

Note that by "people" I don't mean "other people", thinking like this is something we all do. It just comes out more clearly when in debates such as the one we're having on street lights.

Edit: Hunter--yes those stats probably are available. You'd be surprised how hard it is to draw conclusions from them, though. When it's an emotive subject and the magnitude of the effect is not too large then it's possible to manipulate the numbers to say more or less whatever you want. For example, you'd think it would be easy to demonstrate whether bicycle helmets cut road deaths. It turns out not be...

[notaclue]

They reckon that burgulars actually need light to see what they are doing and if they had to use a torch they would be more noticeable. It appears that they are afraid of the dark too. So in my mind they'd best get petitioning to get them turned off again pretty sharpish.

It is not that. It is the guard dog that has sharp teeth that will drag them away and do nasty things to their leg in their kennel that worres them. Having a dog saying "did the earth move for you too" after is not a good thing fora burgular to admit to a police officer without chuckles of laughter from the desk sargent.

Edit: About dogs. This was said by Bud Malmstrom a ex Vietnam veteren, ex police officer and martial arts teacher in Georgia USA:

"Anybody can kill anybody, it's no great shakes. You can train for 40 years and a kid with a handgun can kill you. The real essence of what I believe is to live your life like a man. If your martial art teaches you how to kill and beat people up, then buy a shotgun and a pitbull, you are the toughest guy in your neighborhood"

So if people are scared of lights being turned off, buy a pitbull and a shotgun. Chances are you will not get robbed if they do break in.

[Capricorn]

Catch here is that burgularies are one thing and to be able to see the area that is targetted you need light.

Most house burgularies are done during daylight anyway and are opertunistic, window left open etc.

If a remote location in the dark were intrinsically safe why are so many farms targetted for machinery, animals, oil amongst other things?

However assults on people and women in particular don't need or want well lit areas.

Seems this thread is selecting the evidence for what it wants, a person walking down an unlit road is not concerned with a burgulary, and there are a lot more people walking along unlit roads and streets.

I would also say that many councils will have switched of as many lights as possible and then were expecting people to say something and in response switch back on those that get requested.

That makes it look as if they are listening to local concerns, and you may like the lights off but there will be 50 or more that want them on. Called Democracy.

I am also betting that you moved to a house in a town for the conveniences that it provides, shops, roads, hospitals, busses, schools, work etc. Well lights come with the package.

[LukeSuppalot]

I spoke to my local parish and district councillors about switching the street lights off from 12am to 5am in our village. They told me that they would have to contact every resident in the village eligable to vote and obtain a majority descision in favour of switching them off before they would even consider the practicalities of doing so. I asked if they could/would undertake such a survey and was told that it was not economically viable to do so as the cost could be more than would be saved in a fiscal year. They would possibly reconsider if enough of the residents wrote in asking them to do so. I then asked what they would consider "enough residents" and was told it would have to be at least 50%.

What a lot of old shoemakers!!!

[JamesF]

What a lot of old shoemakers!!!

I think I'd be wanting to know on what grounds they'd need to contact everyone to get approval. It's not unknown for council staff to get the wrong end of the stick sometimes. Particularly so in smaller councils or where they're unlikely to be challenged.

James

[Shure]

Our street lights are still off at present although there have been plenty of petitions doing the rounds to switch them back on.

Only a few weeks ago we had a large spate of burglaries in the village(9 in one night) all during the time the lights were out according to local police.

Coincidence or not it will help the argument for those wanting them back on...

[SteveNickolls]

Hi Luke,

Thanks for this. It's amazing the difference between councils and how power is divided up at a local level. I understand that in Notts the county council (being the highways authority) organised a 4 year plan to turn off/dim the street lights across the county. Each of the parishes are being consulted by the county as the programme is rolled out in their area and involves agreeing on the level of cuts-sounds like your parish/district councils feel they have to do a survey themselves (but maybe don't really want to do it which is a shame).

Cheers,

Steve

[Hawksmoor]

Incidence of crime appears to have fallen in Lowestoft since the lights went off. No shortage of moaners but thanks to the erection of a couple of new wind turbines the usual culprits have redirected their criticism away from 'the terror of a street with no low-pressure sodium after 12.00 midnight'. You can see a lot more stars!

[JamesF]

Where Parish Councils are concerned there can be a good deal of inertia, ignorance and conservatism to overcome. There are plenty with a councillor or two who just wants to preserve everything the way it is or who thinks they know how things should be done, regardless of what the law actually has to say on the matter.

James

[SteveNickolls]

Hiya Shure,

Sorry to hear about the nine burglaries in the village on one night. You'd like to think that a reasoned approach would be taken by the council, not just taking unreasonable petitions into account. Maybe if turning the lights off has helped darken the skies (how long have the lights been turned off/dimmed to gauge any benefits?) you might want to write saying how good the exercise has been?

Cheers,

Steve

[SteveNickolls]

Thanks Hawksmoor for the update on Lowestoft. Seems like Notts needs some diversionary issues to take the mind off street lighting.

Cheers,

Steve