The future of visual astronomy

[icpn]

I must admit I find it interesting that the EAA evangalists keep claiming it is visual observing. It isn't and never will be it is a form of cheap imaging. Similar things can be said about NV observing. Paying 6 grand or more for something that allows you to look at Sharpless nebulae does not seem to be good value to me. It is a shame that the commercial magazines just spend all their time pushing AP as I am aware that there are a lot of large visual telescopes still out there being used. It does seem however that at most star parties now the fields are bing overrun by imagers using tiny telescopes to take images of the same objects over and over again.  I agree with the poster who said that most imagers just want something, no matter how bad, to put on theri social media pages to gain likes.  In most cases they seem to know little about what they are imaging. I think most visual observers have at leats some knowledge of what they are looking at.

[John]

11 minutes ago, paulastro said:

....This myth is encouraged to some degree by magazines and astronomical retailers advertising very expensive imaging equipment.  It's a good business to be in - selling equipment most of which will soon be out if date or incompatable.  Indeed, apart from the telescope or lens used, if its kept long enough it becomes worthless.....

 

That is an interesting point. 

One of my scopes is well over 20 years old now, another two are over 15 years old. My youngest scope was made 7 years ago. A number of my eyepieces are 20+ year old designs. 

I'm not good news for the astro retailer I guess ....... 🙄

[Stu]

15 hours ago, PeterStudz said:

I have yet to see a single observation report

They may be niche, but they do exist. I belong to a FB group dedicated to observing and people post observing reports, with and without images, sometimes with sketches on here. Quite refreshing it is too.

[DaveS]

I have disagree that AN only caters for the imagers. Look at the monthly sky guide, and it's full of "how to gawp at, sorry, observe it", nothing at all about "how to image it", although I remember, back in the day that at least the object of the month had a "how to image it" section.

It's been getting to the point of my questioning my subscription.

[saac]

The happy astronomer is the one that does both, or just does whatever they like without justification or affirmation.

Jim 

[PeterC65]

2 hours ago, icpn said:

I must admit I find it interesting that the EAA evangalists keep claiming it is visual observing.

I don't think anyone is saying that EAA is visual observing. It isn't, but it is a lot closer to visual than it is to AP.

Visual and AP are quite different hobbies I think, whereas EAA is a close approximation (but not the same thing as) visual astronomy. If you're a visual astronomer then you can try EAA for the price of a good eyepiece. I think that's worth the punt as it gives another perspective on what you can see.

[DaveS]

Imaging doesn't have to preclude observing. Once my imaging sequence is up and running I will frequently go out with my 10 X 50s to look around. I have some grab and go kit that I should be making more use of, though it's not the primary focus of my astronomy.

[saac]

3 minutes ago, DaveS said:

Imaging doesn't have to preclude observing. Once my imaging sequence is up and running I will frequently go out with my 10 X 50s to look around. I have some grab and go kit that I should be making more use of, though it's not the primary focus of my astronomy.

I do similar Dave, once my imaging plan is up and running I turn to my visual set-up. But shhhhh, this kind of loose talk is dangerous, people have been stripped of their eyepieces for suggesting you can do both  

Jim 

[Ratlet]

43 minutes ago, DaveS said:

Imaging doesn't have to preclude observing. Once my imaging sequence is up and running I will frequently go out with my 10 X 50s to look around. I have some grab and go kit that I should be making more use of, though it's not the primary focus of my astronomy.

This is basically what I do.  Take the 10" out to cool (ideally whilst it's getting dark) and setup the imaging rig whilst the Dob cools.  Troubleshooting is largely confined to turning it off and hoping it learns it's lesson by the next clear night.

[ONIKKINEN]

3 hours ago, paulastro said:

Excellent, well said. 

To me visual observing is actually experiencing the night sky, while  imaging is time spent obtaining a  picture of it, which however impressive is only a poor representative of the real thing.  It's a bit like reading  holiday brochures but never going on holiday.

It doesn't really matter as they are completely different activities so one being better than the other doesn't come into it for me.  

It's also not true there is somehow a 'natural' progression from  observing to imaging, indicating the former is superior in some way.  This myth is encouraged to some degree by magazines and astronomical retailers advertising very expensive imaging equipment.  It's a good business to be in - selling equipment most of which will soon be out if date or incompatable.  Indeed, apart from the telescope or lens used, if its kept long enough it becomes worthless.

A friend of mine, to counteract  jibes saying how superior imaging is responds that 'imagers are failed visual observers'.  I couldn't possibly comment.  🙂

I think you misunderstood my point, either purposefully to make further fun of it or unintentionally because my idea didn't come across so well in text. Either way i dont think i should reply, but i am petty.

I dont think you, or some other purely visual observer is likely to turn into an astrophotographer. What i meant is going forward those who pick up the hobby and buy their very first scope are likely to be more interested in imaging vs observing, at least compared to those who started the hobby 30 years ago. And this part i didn't want to write because its a bit morbid, but those who started the hobby 30 years ago are probably not around for as long as those who started the hobby today so in time this is the "evolution" of the average astronomy userbase where the purely visual observer is less common than it is today or was 30 years ago. I thought that was fairly obvious to read as my point between the lines.

Its funny to me how you got so defensive, when my comment was not at all meant or written as an attack. The idea that imaging is somehow "superior" in general to visual was not at all what i said, it is what you wanted to interpret from it because you clearly think observing is superior. You say "To me visual observing is actually experiencing the night sky, while  imaging is time spent obtaining a  picture of it," . So from this i can gather that imagers just spend their time and not enjoy it, and the superior observer actually experiences the night sky which is apparently not what imagers do.

[DirkSteele]

19 hours ago, PeterStudz said:

I completely agree. Also the rise of social media where it’s easy to post a picture of, for example, Jupiter with not much more than a comment along the lines of “Jupiter, taken through I telescope from my back garden”.  I have yet to see a single observation report (with picture or without) on social media. And I don’t believe the majority of people on social media would be interested in that kind of thing. Social media is driven by image and pictures. But that doesn’t mean that there are more imagers than visual observers, or that visual observation is in decline without a future.

 

While I agree that very few on social media are interested as it is much easier to spend a few seconds looking a photo, like it and move on, whereas an observing report may take tens of minutes to read and it the world of short attention and instant gratification are the norm, they do not generate interest, I defintely share my reports (at least I did until I deleted all my accounts last year) but i can track click through and they get very few, especially compared to my equipment reviews which rack up thousands of views.  But I do not care, I love writing them up and some times go back and read them again which stirs great memories.  I recently read by 2013 Namibia reports.  Most enjoyable.

 

http://alpha-lyrae.co.uk/category/observing-reports/

 

 

[Jules Tohpipi]

2 hours ago, PeterC65 said:

I don't think anyone is saying that EAA is visual observing. It isn't, but it is a lot closer to visual than it is to AP.

Visual and AP are quite different hobbies I think, whereas EAA is a close approximation (but not the same thing as) visual astronomy. If you're a visual astronomer then you can try EAA for the price of a good eyepiece. I think that's worth the punt as it gives another perspective on what you can see.

Yes exactly. Nobody is trying to change anyone's opinions or behaviours. There's no referendum vote next week deciding whether to ban visual or AP astronomy. 

It's just people explaining on both sides what they prefer to do and why they enjoy doing it.

Inevitably imaging will make some inroads as it gets cheaper and more accessible. But it shouldn't be mistaken as a threat to our hobby. 

Edited August 20, 2023 by Jules Tohpipi

[PeterC65]

Picking up on the points a few people have made about writing observation reports, I wrote up my sessions during my first year of astronomy but found that I was spending a couple of hours doing them, the following morning, when I was usually tired from the night before. It was useful to reflect on each session, and I did often post the reports on SGL, but writing them became a chore that detracted from the pleasure of a nights observing.

So I bought a voice recorder (remember I don't have a smartphone).

I now record my voice comments on the night instead of making illegible scribbles in the dark, then keep the voice recording, linking to it from a spreadsheet that records what targets I saw (or attempted to see) on what night. Doing this takes much less time and gives me the same information as before, but alas I don't have the written report to post.

 

[Paz]

9 minutes ago, PeterC65 said:

So I bought a voice recorder (remember I don't have a smartphone).

I now record my voice comments on the night instead of making illegible scribbles in the dark, then keep the voice recording, linking to it from a spreadsheet that records what targets I saw (or attempted to see) on what night. Doing this takes much less time and gives me the same information as before, but alas I don't have the written report to post.

 

I used to use a voice recorder to have a more accurate record and would listen to it and write up my notes from the recording. That recorder eventually broke and I didn't replace it but recently I used the voice recorder in my phone and that went very well. I think I will try that some more or buy another dedicated voice recorder and go back to that method.

I always write up my sessions, it is a drag sometimes but I seem to be obsessed with sticking to the habit. Being able to read back through them is great and it's funny that they are completely focused on astronomy. My written astronomy diary goes back many years, but you would not be able to tell anything about what happened in the world or in my life, only what I saw and what kit I used, and if anyone else observed with me they get the honour of a name check!

[bilbo]

Don't confuse EAA for observing with the usual EAA as a quick entry into pretty pictures. The idea from the start was to"see" beyond the visual limits of your scope. Astronomy not photograpy. If it's within the limits of your scope use your eye's if not use a camera.

Steve

[PeterC65]

1 hour ago, bilbo said:

Don't confuse EAA for observing with the usual EAA as a quick entry into pretty pictures. The idea from the start was to"see" beyond the visual limits of your scope. Astronomy not photograpy. If it's within the limits of your scope use your eye's if not use a camera.

Steve

I don't understand this distinction between two types of EAA. In some places (CN) there is highly charged debate about the definition of EAA, but for me it just needs to be close to real time, and that makes it similar to visual astronomy, just using a camera rather than my eyes.

Just as a scope lets you see much more than you can with the naked eye, another piece of kit, a camera, lets you see more again.

[Deadlake]

I can imagine why the AP route is so popular is the amount of light pollution that at the same time is making visual observing hard to do. The impact on star hoping, in some places only push/goto can navigate the sky.

 Visual to me is the real time observation of the sky, EAA is out of this due the integration time taken to generate an image however sometime soon this will achieved.

Now a lot of the objects I look at under SQM 21 skies with a C11 are mono chrome in nature whether using glass or boosting the contrast to SQM 23 with an intensifier.

I can also look at methane clouds on the planets with the intensifier.
Galaxy spiral arms becomes more defined.

iI’s not just H-Alpha that is made possible.

It’s easier then getting a 30” scope out that may not acclimate or while waiting getting clouded over. 
 

Visuals decline is IMHO because of light pollution….

Edited August 20, 2023 by Deadlake

[JeremyS]

3 hours ago, Paz said:

I used to use a voice recorder to have a more accurate record and would listen to it and write up my notes from the recording. That recorder eventually broke and I didn't replace it but recently I used the voice recorder in my phone and that went very well. I think I will try that some more or buy another dedicated voice recorder and go back to that method.

I always write up my sessions, it is a drag sometimes but I seem to be obsessed with sticking to the habit. Being able to read back through them is great and it's funny that they are completely focused on astronomy. My written astronomy diary goes back many years, but you would not be able to tell anything about what happened in the world or in my life, only what I saw and what kit I used, and if anyone else observed with me they get the honour of a name check!

Have you tried voice recording directly into a text program?

[PeterStudz]

9 hours ago, Stu said:

They may be niche, but they do exist. I belong to a FB group dedicated to observing and people post observing reports, with and without images, sometimes with sketches on here. Quite refreshing it is too.

I have a FB account but stopped using it about 3 years ago - I found it too annoying, decided to give it a rest/break and haven’t been back! But it does sound refreshing.

I do use Twitter - now X  and Instagram. Of course X is just short text plus maybe an image. Instagram is imaged based but quite easy to write a full report. Whatever, both X and Instagram encourage images over text which doesn’t help!

 

[John]

1 hour ago, Deadlake said:

.....Visuals decline is IMHO light pollution….

I wonder though if threats such as light pollution and overcrowded skies (satellites) pose a challenge for amateur astronomy generally, whichever way you choose to pursue it ?

In that respect, there is more that binds all of our interests together than sets them apart I feel. We have a common bond of a love of space 🙂

 

 

[Ratlet]

I was out last night with an LT80 and some non-astronomy friends (testing Starsense) and whilst satellites are a pain in the rear they also drew everyone in.  They loved spotting them and following them across the sky and it often led them to new things to look at.

I think if you've not observed at the sky before they're pretty neat.  Obviously a short lived phenomena.

[Mr Spock]

In recent times I can't remember a session where I haven't seen a satellite through the eyepiece.

[bosun21]

When observing with binoculars satellites are seen zipping about all over the sky. I’ve reached a point where they barely register with me. When using one of my scopes however they are definitely a nuisance.

[DirkSteele]

26 minutes ago, Mr Spock said:

In recent times I can't remember a session where I haven't seen a satellite through the eyepiece.

I remember a time not that long ago where that was still somewhat unique and would often get called out - “oh, satellite just flew through the field.”  Now it is all the time. I really see this when I do out reach. It’s a new experience for most and I lose count of how many times I hear it during a session.

[Deadlake]

12 minutes ago, DirkSteele said:

I remember a time not that long ago where that was still somewhat unique and would often get called out - “oh, satellite just flew through the field.”  Now it is all the time. I really see this when I do out reach. It’s a new experience for most and I lose count of how many times I hear it during a session.

I’m not convinced that Starlink is the best value for delivering the internet globally.

The cult of Elon has much to answer for…