The future of visual astronomy

[tomato]

Just read an interesting article in the latest AN about the future trends for astrophotography by Nik Szymanek. I would agree with his views in that hardware development could plateau but who knows what AI based software will be capable of delivering?
 

But it did get me thinking about where the visual side of the hobby is going. Undoubtedly there are plenty of eyepiece only enthusiasts still around but my observations over the last ten years are that amateur astronomers are mostly, how shall I put it, of a certain age and with the arrival of cheaper all in one smart scopes and camera packages, will the upcoming smartphone generation embrace these and eyepieces/huge Dobsonians will go the way of film cameras and become a real niche market. Maybe not,  but look how many folks nowadays view a live event through their smartphones rather than take it in through their eyes.

Of course, this assumes future generations will have sufficient disposable income in their retirement and a planet left to enjoy the hobby on, but I’ve probably strayed into forbidden territory with that comment so this thread might be short lived.

[PeterC65]

I'm 57 and not part of the smartphone generation (I don't have one), but I'm finding I'm doing less visual and more EAA.

When I started doing astronomy, just a few years ago, I only wanted to see the photons with my own eyes. But what I could see was mostly disappointing and so aperture fever set in and the desire to buy more kit in order to see more. I considered a 12" Dobsonian but that was big and expensive so instead I picked up a second hand astro camera via SGL. I was blown away with what I could see with that, and the opportunity to observe with others / with some light pollution (the Moon) / from indoors. I soon bought a better camera and starter collecting EAA kit (I don't do AP so I've not had to spend a fortune).

It will be interesting to see how much visual vs EAA I do this season. I still hanker after doing visual and still have another eyepiece on my wish list!

While EAA has greatly reduced my aperture fever, it is still the case that more aperture lets you see more. I'd like to see more of the smaller galaxies for example and so may still get that 12" Dobsonian.

[DirkSteele]

It is a very interesting question.  It also feels like observational equipment has some what reached a plateau.  The last great breakthrough in eyepieces was the Ethos range back in 2007.  The best optic I have ever used (the LZOS 130/1200 triplet) was designed in 2003 and hit the market in 2005 (though we should not discount the emgerence of quality scopes from the far east bringing decent scopes to the masses - 25 years ago, you wanted an APO, it was Tak or AP and that was about it and a fat wallet to afford it).  I guess faster focal ratio mirrors have allowed for huge Dobs without the needs for a step ladder which is a relatively recent innovatiion (and useable thanks to coma correctors), and the recent advances in night vision technology if the prices can reach mass market may drive the next stage of visual observing.  Increased urbanisation and corresponding light pollution is certainly not helping the visual cause.

 

There is no doubt that what was once a niche backwater of amateur astronomy has now become the dominant force in the hobby thanks to digital detectors and mount advances (anyone want to hyper their film and then manually guide a long exposure for several hours?  No, didn't think so).  You can see that with production numbers of the LZOS 130 scopes.  The 130 f9.2 which is very much a visual use scope has around 130-140 scopes out under the stars.  The 130 f/6 which is targeted more to imaging (though still a very capable observing scope) has sold about 3x that number.

 

I do wonder if imaging as we currently know it will also face a big decline.  The younger generations (without wishing to be disparaging) are often spolied with 4k images, instant results and a lack of attention / focus / patience which would make long exposures and hours processing images seem like a fools endeavour and those instant gratification scopes that put images on screen for you to enjoy become the dominant force.  I certainly see a dominance of the question "can I take a photo of that with my phone?" at outreach events indicating holding the phone to the EP to capture the Moon or Saturn, comes mostly from the younger generation.  I tell them to just enjoy the view with their eyes as handheld that is very difficult but you can see they really want to get a photo so they can get some likes which seems more important than actually experiencing and enjoying what they are witnessing.

 

Sky and Telescope had an issue about 15 years ago with a cover photo of 10-year old girl hugging her dobsionian asking the question "where are all the young astronomers?"  Perhaps another cover story is coming in a few years..."where are all the astrophotographers?"

 

 

[PeterStudz]

First off. Just about every past prediction that I’ve seen about the future has been wrong. Eg as a boy in the late 1970’s I can remember reading that “flying cars for everyone are just around the corner”. Over 50 yrs later I’m still waiting for my flying taxi to pick me up from my door and take me down the pub. 

The other issue is light pollution. I can only see this as getting worse. But I guess you never know. Last year I went on holiday with a friend (in his late 50’s) who had never seen the Milky Way. We were in a Bortle 1-2 site and it was his first time. I’m convinced that without so much light pollution there would be more visual. And in a real dark site you don’t even need a telescope. 

Smart Telescopes (or whatever the are called) are relatively new and a decent one seems to be expensive. Especially for a beginner who might not be sure that they’d enjoy the hobby. But surely they’ll get better and cheaper in the years to come. And then what? I suspect that most people, living under light pollution, will it’ll jump straight in a get one of these. This will then become astronomy to most people.

Having said that yesterday night/morning I was up virtually all night with my 11 yr old daughter doing visual on the planets - Saturn, Jupiter and Uranus. We also go nice views of the Pleiades and a peak at the white smudge that is Andromeda. If she wasn’t interested in visual astronomy she would do that! And sadly we are in Bortle 7. Alice, like all kids these days, is into smartphones and she does enjoy taking smartphone snaps of what we’ve seen. I’ve made an attempt to explain astrophotography as initially she was confused by all the wonderful bright and colourful DSO images. After my probably rather poor attempt at an explanation her reply was “so, they are fake then”, which literally made me laugh. Another question that she asked was “if you were in a spaceship and got closer to something like the Orion Nebula would it look like the pictures? I don’t know the answer, but I suspect not.

[M40]

My thoughts are that the future will be technology driven visual. I use an asiair to drive the mount to a target I could never find, plate solve, set it to guide then flip the mirror and look at the target. Flip the mirror back and do a touch of eaa. That little lot will all be in one package soon 👌 and probably before the seestars lands so it will be old news before get to play with it 🤣

[PeterStudz]

 

43 minutes ago, DirkSteele said:

 

 I certainly see a dominance of the question "can I take a photo of that with my phone?" at outreach events indicating holding the phone to the EP to capture the Moon or Saturn, comes mostly from the younger generation.  I tell them to just enjoy the view with their eyes as handheld that is very difficult but you can see they really want to get a photo so they can get some likes which seems more important than actually experiencing and enjoying what they are witnessing.

 

Sky and Telescope had an issue about 15 years ago with a cover photo of 10-year old girl hugging her dobsionian asking the question "where are all the young astronomers?"  Perhaps another cover story is coming in a few years..."where are all the astrophotographers?"

 

 

A few months ago my daughter had a friend over. We looked at the moon through our telescope and towards the end she wanted a smartphone snap. This picture is now the background on her phone. Of course there are a ton of wallpaper images of the moon freely available on the internet. I think it’s significant that she wanted to use her own. And a moon wallpaper would not have even been considered until she saw it through the telescope. I think that’s significant. 
 

Recently my daughter made some rough sketches of Jupiter, Saturn and Mars. Interestingly they were all “upside down”, like seen through our Dob. Eg Mars had the North Polar Hood at the bottom. Jupiter had the GRS towards the top. Saturn obviously a Dob view too. Of course she’s seen a ton of internet images of the planets which are largely the other-way up. Our own rather basic smartphone planet images are also rotated to look like what you see online. To me this suggests that the views at the eyepiece have far more of an impact. 

Edited August 18, 2023 by PeterStudz

[M40]

31 minutes ago, PeterStudz said:

I’ve made an attempt to explain astrophotography as initially she was confused by all the wonderful bright and colourful DSO images. After my probably rather poor attempt at an explanation her reply was “so, they are fake then”, which literally made me laugh. 

Strangely that's what my wife says 🤣

[Mandy D]

@PeterStudz Alice has asked a very interesting question, there. I'd like to take a stab at answering that. As you know nebulae are dust and gas clouds, so very diffuse and (ahem!) nebulous. If we image these things from Earth in purely visual light without any particular emphasis on certain wavelengths, I guess that might be close to reality. So as we approach the nebula, such that it subtends to the naked eye the same angle it did to our telescope back on Earth, it would look very similar, but with a more 3 dimensional appearance due to the eye having a shorter focal length. Remember, from photography, long focal lengths compress the field, short ones expand it - I'm not talking depth of focus here, but the appearance of depth, as in far things looking even smaller and further away in wide angle lenses.

The other thing that will happen is something anyone who has flown on an aeroplane will be familiar with. Clouds that look like sheep from the ground become more diffuse and nebulous like a fog as you approach them and eventually fly through them. So, will see a foggier view with less apparent detail as we get very close.

This is just my first thoughts on the topic, so I may well be wrong, but it makes sense to me and I hope it helps Alice.

[Macavity]

Aside from my memory: "diffuse nebulae would be invisible"... 😑
But the surface brightness - "magnitude per square arc second"
is very low. M31 (Galaxy) is "hard" to image for the same reason.
Paradoxically, distant galaxies can be "surprisingly" much easier!

http://www.badastronomy.com/media/inprint/underalienskies.html

"To us, far away, the nebula is bright because it's small. But if we get closer, it appears bigger, of course. But the total light doesn't change! As it gets bigger, the light from every square degree of it drops. [...] As it spreads out in the sky, the light from it thins. From Earth, the nebula covers about 3/4 of a square degree. From a light year away, the nebula would fill the sky, 20,000 square degrees. That reduces the light by a factor of about 30,000! From a light year away, the nebula is practically invisible!" 

Or maybe NOT? (Read whole article!) 🤣

Edited August 18, 2023 by Macavity
Under pressure here? lol

[Tomatobro]

I am sure that I read somewhere that the same people that "invented" CMOS detectors have built a quantum detector for the next generation of imaging hardware. I recall a price of around £30000 for the first chips. I was surprised that it was not mentioned in the AN article. If I can find the link will post it here

[JeremyS]

Visual observing does seem to be declining and digital increasing. But digital is also overly represented due to the fact that it produces….images, which are readily reproduced in mags and online. Thus there appear to be Fewer sketches. 

Having said that I never cease to be impressed by the number of excellent sketches and write-ups of visual sessions. In fact I wonder if there are more visual observers on SGL (relatively) than elsewhere.

On innovation, there is currently much excitement about Tak’s back to the future release of its TPL eyepieces. These are Plossls of, apparently, very high quality. Who would have predicted this? Some of the US reviews are positive. I don’t think any have landed in the UK yet, but we await @Highburymark’s views eagerly 😊 there there are the Tak TOEs and Vixen HRs, so a clear market for visual.

[Franklin]

I'm not for one minute going to pretend that imaging is easy but with todays technological improvements over those of yesteryear I feel quite confident in saying that imaging is a lot easier than it used to be and the results speak for themselves. However, there will always be something magical about being out under the stars with just a telescope and eyepiece, even if you're just looking at the same old targets year in, year out. Visual observing maybe in decline for a number of reasons but it will never die out completely. The connection with the night sky that a visual astronomer feels when observing is not something that can be caught on any camera.

[moggi1964]

3 hours ago, tomato said:

Just read an interesting article in the latest AN about the future trends for astrophotography by Nik Szymanek. I would agree with his views in that hardware development could plateau but who knows what AI based software will be capable of delivering?
 

But it did get me thinking about where the visual side of the hobby is going. Undoubtedly there are plenty of eyepiece only enthusiasts still around but my observations over the last ten years are that amateur astronomers are mostly, how shall I put it, of a certain age and with the arrival of cheaper all in one smart scopes and camera packages, will the upcoming smartphone generation embrace these and eyepieces/huge Dobsonians will go the way of film cameras and become a real niche market. Maybe not,  but look how many folks nowadays view a live event through their smartphones rather than take it in through their eyes.

Of course, this assumes future generations will have sufficient disposable income in their retirement and a planet left to enjoy the hobby on, but I’ve probably strayed into forbidden territory with that comment so this thread might be short lived.

I just read this thread from last to first post and before I got to the first post I did wonder if visual scopes may go the way of film cameras but it appears Alice (I think) already had that thought. A new niche at some point in the future.

Having familiarised myself with the new generation of EEA (or is it EEVA?) technologies (I remember the Mallincam I think it was called) I think there is certainly a good chance that will be of ever-increasing interest. Seems easier than traditional astrophotography and certainly less expensive and the fact the smart phone or tablet can play a significant part means it does fit with that 'smartphone generation' of which I consider myself one at 59 years old.

That said, whenever we showed someone Saturn through a scope for the first time it was a fabulous moment for all involved. That look of awe that you could see the rings of Saturn with a simple bit of glass and a tube never ceases to make me smile. WOuld it be the same seeing Saturn for the first time on a tablet? I don't know.

[PeterC65]

It's interesting that people are comparing visual astronomy and AP.

I think AP is a different hobby. One in which you set up kit to collect data and then later, sometimes much later, process that data. I get the impression that more of the skill, and the time, is spent doing the processing than dealing with the kit. I can understand why people enjoy AP, but it isn't for me.

EAA on the other hand is a lot like visual, much closer to visual than AP I think. You are looking at the objects close to live, and the hobby is carried out 'on the night' (I review snapshots I've taken the following day, but just to keep a record of the session).

It surprises me how few people on SGL do EAA (as opposed to AP). I find myself going to CN for discussions about EAA (when I much prefer SGL).

 

[LukeSkywatcher]

Honestly, with the way global weather patterns are going...I personally think visual astronomy and Astro Photography are in the same boat. 

I honestly haven't seen a star in about 3 months.

 

[HollyHound]

6 hours ago, PeterStudz said:

First off. Just about every past prediction that I’ve seen about the future has been wrong. Eg as a boy in the late 1970’s I can remember reading that “flying cars for everyone are just around the corner”. Over 50 yrs later I’m still waiting for my flying taxi to pick me up from my door and take me down the pub. 

Without taking this off topic... you might find, this is now really close to happening... I've been working with various eVTOL companies (for their flight sims) and whilst I was initially sceptical, it's definitely "when" not "if" now... and we're not measuring in many years either anymore 🤞

Article about one company (Jobs), but there are many others 😮

https://techcrunch.com/2023/06/28/joby-aviation-receives-permit-to-fly-first-evtol-built-on-production-line/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAKIiX37gQdqr7G8o4QPGoizEwM1KW4Bd3M5M_EmrUbDY0X0SEENf9rD45CCvrpJ_qfd2on44U9EGWPznL9UP3-YaL-6GBnAT_Ezg_PvhvnJCvOc_lRi0QqUH8eJFcz3zPhy-wA1BNyA6SmAKhxlcHz_O4UKrogCOd5oPWLHShJRt

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by HollyHound

[HollyHound]

3 hours ago, PeterC65 said:

It's interesting that people are comparing visual astronomy and AP.

I think AP is a different hobby. One in which you set up kit to collect data and then later, sometimes much later, process that data. I get the impression that more of the skill, and the time, is spent doing the processing than dealing with the kit. I can understand why people enjoy AP, but it isn't for me.

EAA on the other hand is a lot like visual, much closer to visual than AP I think. You are looking at the objects close to live, and the hobby is carried out 'on the night' (I review snapshots I've taken the following day, but just to keep a record of the session).

It surprises me how few people on SGL do EAA (as opposed to AP). I find myself going to CN for discussions about EAA (when I much prefer SGL).

 

I think EAA is the only type of "imaging" I would consider for the reasons you outline... great to hear it's working so well 😃

[John]

I've absolutely nothing against imaging or EAA but they are not for me I'm afraid.

If the LP gets so bad that I can't get satisfying views with a simple scope, an eyepiece and a star chart then I would stop observing.

 

[PeterStudz]

11 minutes ago, HollyHound said:

Without taking this off topic... you might find, this is now really close to happening... I've been working with various eVTOL companies (for their flight sims) and whilst I was initially sceptical, it's definitely "when" not "if" now... and we're not measuring in many years either anymore 🤞

Article about one company (Jobs), but there are many others 😮

https://techcrunch.com/2023/06/28/joby-aviation-receives-permit-to-fly-first-evtol-built-on-production-line/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAKIiX37gQdqr7G8o4QPGoizEwM1KW4Bd3M5M_EmrUbDY0X0SEENf9rD45CCvrpJ_qfd2on44U9EGWPznL9UP3-YaL-6GBnAT_Ezg_PvhvnJCvOc_lRi0QqUH8eJFcz3zPhy-wA1BNyA6SmAKhxlcHz_O4UKrogCOd5oPWLHShJRt

 

Yes, I am an aviation fan (I use to be a glider pilot). It might well now be “just around the corner”, I always thought it would happen sometime. But my point was that I was reading stuff over 50 years ago that said it would be soon. The implication certainly wasn’t over half a century. And it’s not a simple subject. 

[HollyHound]

6 minutes ago, PeterStudz said:

Yes, I am an aviation fan (I use to be a glider pilot). It might well now be “just around the corner”, I always thought it would happen sometime. But my point was that I was reading stuff over 50 years ago that said it would be soon. The implication certainly wasn’t over half a century. And it’s not a simple subject. 

No worries, I knew what you meant and just eager to show the advances in eVTOL (having been working quietly away on it for a few years now)... we all have had those "in a few years, we'll all be doing (or not doing) this"... then it rarely happens 😆

FWIW, I think visual astronomy will remain around for a good while, but might go the way of film camera and vinyl records... something that is done, partly for nostalgia. However, I absolutely love it and will hope to be doing this for however long I have left 🤞😃

 

[PeterStudz]

3 hours ago, PeterC65 said:

It's interesting that people are comparing visual astronomy and AP.

I think AP is a different hobby. One in which you set up kit to collect data and then later, sometimes much later, process that data. I get the impression that more of the skill, and the time, is spent doing the processing than dealing with the kit. I can understand why people enjoy AP, but it isn't for me.

EAA on the other hand is a lot like visual, much closer to visual than AP I think. You are looking at the objects close to live, and the hobby is carried out 'on the night' (I review snapshots I've taken the following day, but just to keep a record of the session).

It surprises me how few people on SGL do EAA (as opposed to AP). I find myself going to CN for discussions about EAA (when I much prefer SGL).

 

I have an interest in AP and EAA. Although in the strictest sense they aren’t for me. For a start I don’t even have a laptop but it’s not just that. But what is AP and EAA. If I take a smartphone snap of the night sky (which I’ve done) isn’t that AP? Modern smartphones will even do some basic stacking, although most don’t realise.

And what is EAA? Eg I’ve just started (used it a couple of times) an iPhone app called AstroShader. Stick it to your eyepiece and it’ll align, stack and give a live preview. A couple of screenshots (live is much better) of the live view of the interface on the phone screen of M13 and M57. Low powe as I was just playing around and in Bortle 7. The direct output from the app without editing of M57 shown below.  Is this EAA? If it is I didn’t know that I was doing it

I guess that what I’m trying to say is that in the future you might be able to do it all - visual, AP, EAA - without realising it’s one or the other.

 

[PeterStudz]

15 minutes ago, HollyHound said:

 

FWIW, I think visual astronomy will remain around for a good while, but might go the way of film camera and vinyl records... something that is done, partly for nostalgia. However, I absolutely love it and will hope to be doing this for however long I have left 🤞😃

 

Yes, you could be right there. Mind, I can remember loads of people saying that the cinema had its day and would be killed of by VHS tapes 😀

Edited August 18, 2023 by PeterStudz
Don’t know what happened there!

[John]

6 minutes ago, PeterStudz said:

I guess that what I’m trying to say is that in the future you might be able to do it all - visual, AP, EAA - without realising it’s one or the other.

 

That is quite possibly correct. I hope there will remain some distinction though, especially when things are reported. I've very recently read a report (not on SGL) which mentioned "seeing" and "observing" a number of the brighter Cephid Variables within the galaxy M 31. That caused a little confusion because it was my understanding that such targets were beyond most amateur telescopes in terms of visual observing, the brightest bring around magnitude 17 I think. It turned out that the reporter in this case had been referring to seeing these variables on long exposure images they had taken with their scopes. 

[Saganite]

double post

Edited August 18, 2023 by Saganite

[Saganite]

49 minutes ago, John said:

I've absolutely nothing against imaging or EAA but they are not for me I'm afraid.

If the LP gets so bad that I can't get satisfying views with a simple scope, an eyepiece and a star chart then I would stop observing.

 

Agree 100%