Astronomy and managing sleep

[Paz]

For the last year or so I've been mostly avoiding observing very late in the night having had a heart issue that has motivated me to change a few habits to try and be healthier. I've changed a number of other things lifestyle-wise but getting more sleep has had the most effect on if I feel right. As well as the physical effects of poor sleep, I think it has been a driver of why my memory is not great - often my other half will say "do you remember xyz...?", but often I won't remember it, and since I've been reading through my observing notes recently there's quite a lot I have observed that I don't remember.

A lack of enough sleep has been compounded by the usual other things such as working too hard and looking after the kids when they were younger etc, but I was wondering how do you find astronomy affects you in the short and long term in terms of disrupting sleeping patterns and do you have any tricks to minimise the impact?

[Franklin]

I'm up at 5.30am for work in the week so if a clear night doesn't fall on a non-work night I'm restricted to quick G&G sessions in the evening at this time of year. Summer is a non-starter due to zero darkness but twilight viewing of Venus and the Moon has been fun and of course solar observation, both Ha and WL takes precedence at this time of year for me. I don't need as much sleep as I did when a younger man but I still need 5/6hrs I reckon, else I'm a right old grumpalump!

A few more months and the gas giants will be around at a more respectable hour, so there will be plenty of shadow transits to observe in the evening skies. Which will lead us into the Winter months and these are the skies I really enjoy. Setting up nice and early and being able to get a good 2/3hr session in while still being able to get my head down before midnight!

[Paul M]

I think that any imbalance in your circadian rhythm will show itself somewhere else down the line.

I work shifts 2 x 12 hrs days followed by 2 x 12 nights then 3 clear days off. By my days off I'm a zombie. And it's accumulative. Memory loss, mood issues, fatigue. I manage all those but that doesn't mean it's ok.

I do find it easier to do a full night shift than to stay up late astronomying and going to bed at 3am. I'm lousy next day!

My advice would be to avoid being up after midnight, particularly if you normally go to bed at 9.30 or 10pm. Set yourself a minimum sleep time and stick with that. 

As Frankin says, early morning observation is an option too. If you don't feel like getting up, fine, nothing lost.

One thing that has changed my astronomying in using cameras instead of my eyeballs. I'm no imager but all my observations are now images. I set up as soon as it goes dark and,  forecast willing, leave it to do its own thing. My rough processing ( no pixel peeping..) is then done in normal, humane hours! Better than watching TV. I like tracking down transient or difficult objects, faint comets, asteroids. I bagged a Trans Neptunian Object that's further than Pluto earlier this year. So no APOD entries from me.

I honestly think I'd have given up active astronomy if I'd not moved away from visual, for many reasons, the need for sleep among them!

[Paz]

27 minutes ago, Franklin said:

I'm up at 5.30am for work in the week so if a clear night doesn't fall on a non-work night I'm restricted to quick G&G sessions in the evening at this time of year. Summer is a non-starter due to zero darkness but twilight viewing of Venus and the Moon has been fun and of course solar observation, both Ha and WL takes precedence at this time of year for me. I don't need as much sleep as I did when a younger man but I still need 5/6hrs I reckon, else I'm a right old grumpalump!

A few more months and the gas giants will be around at a more respectable hour, so there will be plenty of shadow transits to observe in the evening skies. Which will lead us into the Winter months and these are the skies I really enjoy. Setting up nice and early and being able to get a good 2/3hr session in while still being able to get my head down before midnight!

That's a good point, I moved more into observing solar system objects (and double stars) initially due to light pollution but the ability to therefore observe at more sociable hours has been a significant benefit.

[Saganite]

1 hour ago, Paz said:

For the last year or so I've been mostly avoiding observing very late in the night having had a heart issue that has motivated me to change a few habits to try and be healthier. I've changed a number of other things lifestyle-wise but getting more sleep has had the most effect on if I feel right. As well as the physical effects of poor sleep, I think it has been a driver of why my memory is not great - often my other half will say "do you remember xyz...?", but often I won't remember it, and since I've been reading through my observing notes recently there's quite a lot I have observed that I don't remember.

A lack of enough sleep has been compounded by the usual other things such as working too hard and looking after the kids when they were younger etc, but I was wondering how do you find astronomy affects you in the short and long term in terms of disrupting sleeping patterns and do you have any tricks to minimise the impact?

Hi Paz,

I completely get where you are coming from.  If I go through to 2am or 3am, I feel tired by the early evening next day, but if I do the early morning two nights running, then I tend to feel quite 'ropey' afterwards.  If the night looks good I sometimes sleep in the evening, but that can backfire  and I have been known to just go to bed....  It has only been the last couple of years that this tiredness is more apparent, but approaching 71 I suppose it is to be expected.

I now look forward to the coming Autumn/winter months because as Tim says, a decent evenings viewing can be had  by normal sleep time .

Edited July 15, 2023 by Saganite

[Paz]

16 minutes ago, Paul M said:

I think that any imbalance in your circadian rhythm will show itself somewhere else down the line.

I work shifts 2 x 12 hrs days followed by 2 x 12 nights then 3 clear days off. By my days off I'm a zombie. And it's accumulative. Memory loss, mood issues, fatigue. I manage all those but that doesn't mean it's ok.

I do find it easier to do a full night shift than to stay up late astronomying and going to bed at 3am. I'm lousy next day!

My advice would be to avoid being up after midnight, particularly if you normally go to bed at 9.30 or 10pm. Set yourself a minimum sleep time and stick with that. 

As Frankin says, early morning observation is an option too. If you don't feel like getting up, fine, nothing lost.

One thing that has changed my astronomying in using cameras instead of my eyeballs. I'm no imager but all my observations are now images. I set up as soon as it goes dark and,  forecast willing, leave it to do its own thing. My rough processing ( no pixel peeping..) is then done in normal, humane hours! Better than watching TV. I like tracking down transient or difficult objects, faint comets, asteroids. I bagged a Trans Neptunian Object that's further than Pluto earlier this year. So no APOD entries from me.

I honestly think I'd have given up active astronomy if I'd not moved away from visual, for many reasons, the need for sleep among them!

That is a useful take on imaging that I had not thought of and I can see the appeal of it.

I read observing reports of early morning sessions by others - it would open up a much bigger set of opportunities. In 10 years of observing I've never yet managed to get myself out of bed for a really early observing session, I will try harder!

[Paul M]

1 minute ago, Paz said:

In 10 years of observing I've never yet managed to get myself out of bed for a really early observing session, I will try harder!

I know the feeling.

I've been a stargazer for nearly 50 years and as a boy was acutely aware of 2 big calendar events in 1999. Things i had to see:

That Solar Eclipse, I had that in hand and we watched totality in perfect conditions on the center line in Bulgaria.

Second was the 33 year maximum of the Leonid meteor shower, expected to be a storm. The peak was due before dawn. The forecast was favorable. I was getting up for work at 6.30 anyway so an earlier start would not be a problem.

I failed. Couldn't get out if bed. Gave myself some reasons.. when I did get up, the dawn sky still displayed some convoluted and iridescent persistent train(s) from a  Leonid fireball(s) I'd just slept through.🫢

[Roy Challen]

For me, good sleep is way more important than astronomy. I would rather have 7 hours of good sleep, than even a couple of hours of astro (heresy, I know!).

Luckily, I'm very much a morning person, so getting up at 2 or 3am isn't a big deal as I'm usually up at half three anyway. It's always quieter, there's usually less in the way of street lights being on, and the seeing tends to be better. Of course, it does depend on my desired targets, whether I'll get up earlier or not.

Solar astronomy doesn't require any of this, of course! That's why I love it so much 😄

Edited July 15, 2023 by Roy Challen

[scarp15]

A good pertinent topic, relatable to all in some capacity. 

Becoming inspired, perhaps motivated by a certain celestial event, planetary alignment, good weather forecast over a new moon phase, by which you are able to perhaps plan, organise and participate. Conversely a spontaneous leap outdoors for a good optimized crisp lunar phase.

Yet as clearly mentioned; personal health, sleep patterns, work, social / family engagement, besides weather, lunar phases, general mood motivation and engaging in other aspiring pursuits, compound any notion for stargazing. 

Therefore keeping in touch on the forum does assist, as does nipping outside from time to time just to look up, maybe catch the ISS. The interest could lie dormant for some time and then rebound; ebbs and flows. Certainly I too am someone conditioned to require an 8 hour sleep; if at all possible and work several days each week and often will prioritize other interests and pursuits n' obligations over stargazing opportunities, which gets over shadowed (so to speak). 

Yet its always there and who else except folk on this forum, relish the return for darker long nights and (perhaps) colder conditions, relishing a list of extraordinary familiar and new seasonal objects to glimpse or image, setting up valued equipment to facilitate this, surpassing for a time all of life's relatively mundane circumstances. 

[jjohnson3803]

1 hour ago, Roy Challen said:

Luckily, I'm very much a morning person, so getting up at 2 or 3am isn't a big deal as I'm usually up at half three anyway. It's always quieter, there's usually less in the way of street lights being on, and the seeing tends to be better. 

Same here.  I rode an 0600 commuter train 5 days a week for many years, so my internal clock was set to "early to bed, early to rise" years ago and I've had no luck resetting it to staying up late to observe.  It is a bit easier for me to stay up late if I'm at a dark site camping, but I tend to wake up early anyway.  A short nap (about 30 minutes max) later in day helps.

 

 

[The60mmKid]

I empathize. In addition to what's been mentioned, I think it's also helpful to have a practice for managing energy during the day. Tai Chi and Qigong help me tremendously. I notice how much energy I often waste on unnecessary mental and physical tension during the daily activities of life. Learning to stay relaxed in body and mind makes a big difference in general, and perhaps especially if I didn't sleep enough due to observing. Then, I can sort of relax into it... "I'm sleepy, and I'm calmly going about my day..." vs. "I'm sleepy, tense, and reactive."

[PeterStudz]

Interesting discussion. If I do an early morning observing session it can literally take me days to feel fully recovered. I’m not a morning person but I do enjoy it when I make the effort. And in the summer I’ve camped out in the garden “no tents” with my daughter, looked for shooting stars, scanned the sky with binoculars and looked through the telescope… fun but tiring! And as suggested there could be health implications.

Being in an urban environment I’ve found that my best skies are generally after 1:30am. Even for the planets and lunar seeing is generally better in the early hours of the morning - I’m guessing less rising heat from buildings and other man made structures. So I tend to be drawn to the early mornings.

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

4 hours ago, Paz said:

For the last year or so I've been mostly avoiding observing very late in the night having had a heart issue that has motivated me to change a few habits to try and be healthier. I've changed a number of other things lifestyle-wise but getting more sleep has had the most effect on if I feel right. As well as the physical effects of poor sleep, I think it has been a driver of why my memory is not great - often my other half will say "do you remember xyz...?", but often I won't remember it, and since I've been reading through my observing notes recently there's quite a lot I have observed that I don't remember.

A lack of enough sleep has been compounded by the usual other things such as working too hard and looking after the kids when they were younger etc, but I was wondering how do you find astronomy affects you in the short and long term in terms of disrupting sleeping patterns and do you have any tricks to minimise the impact?

Since changing jobs and not working nights, I sleep better than I have done for years. Astronomy does not get in the way of that rest because I'm simply no good to anyone without at least 6.5 hours sleep.

Living in the urban jungle, light pollution restricts observing but I do miss that sweet spot of around midnight to 3am when the city outskirts are quiet and the sky is a touch darker, so in the months either side of mid summer, if I have a day off and the forecast is good then I will stay out late and try to have a power nap before a late nighter but there's no staying up all night.

[ONIKKINEN]

I work permanently in an evening shift schedule (15:00-23:00 + or - an hour or so) and so have a very lucky situation when it comes to managing time for astronomy. I dont wake up in a normal time, and only wake up right before my shift as if i was a normal morning person - so my day-night schedule is just pushed back around 8 hours. There was a time when i worked mixed shifts and i was miserable and had terrible sleep ( maybe 0-5h average 💀). Stabilizing to an evening only schedule helped immensely (although not completely). I think a good portion of people who say they need a cup of coffee to get going or that they dislike mornings are actually just evening people who are forced to comply with the norm of a 9-5 job, which has done great harm to overall health of workers. Not too many professions have an option to work out of that schedule, so most of these people are out of luck and just have to live their lives in an impossible (to them) schedule. I urge anyone who thinks this might be the case to try and find a way to live in a schedule that fits them personally!

So i didn't adapt my schedule to astronomy, i just found astronomy as a hobby because of my already existing schedule. I can go out and image on a weekday and not lose any sleep, or at least not lose a lot of it. If i stay out until 6am and get home by 7 then yeah i will have to shave a couple of hours off sleep but its still manageable. If i were to only go out with the scope on weekends i would probably have only 5 usable nights a year and most likely would just abandon the hobby. Not sure how anyone manages to juggle sleep and astronomy with a normal schedule to be honest.

[Jules Tohpipi]

I don't do particularly long or frequent sessions. But I find getting a nap in after work, between 6:30pm and 8:30pm, that somewhat takes the edge off a late finish. Otherwise I can really suffer. Hence why it's usually Friday and Saturday nights for me if the weather is playing good.   

[Franklin]

A 9 to 5 routine doesn't help the unsociable hours of an astronomer and I've often wondered if a permanent set up in some kind of home observatory would help. Some of the observatory builds I've seen on here are just amazing but as a visual observer I wouldn't really need anything so elaborate. Just some kind of shelter for a scope and mount to be permanently positioned and ready for rapid deployment. A full height Pulsar dome on a concrete pad would be absolutely ideal but £4k+ is a bit over the top for me. So I've been considering installing a permanent pillar in the garden and leaving a mount outside under a cover of some sort and that way I would just mount the scope and be up and ready. This I think would make me more able to take advantage of any opportunities. There have been plenty of occasions, when getting up early for work, when I could have got a quick half hour in but putting up the mount and then taking down has always deterred me. The binoculars get used in these situations which is great but to be able to have a quickie with a proper bit of kit would be awesome.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Franklin

[Macavity]

It always amazes me that anyone who WORKS (a real job) has sufficient energy for Hobbies
- Amateur Astronomy, particularly! I had my own (cardiac) warning, took early retirement etc.
I have my own theories: The (unpaid!) random / extended working hours of a "Scientist" did
me rather little harm? A change of job to a (often unnecessarily!) Toxic & Stressful workplace
was my undoing? An unhealthy lifestyle,"loads the bullets, but STRESS fires the Gun"? 🤔

Early retirement is a bit of a mixed blessing. You now have to worry about your budget! lol
My change of circumstances (I am single!) did not effect others. But again, "swings and..."?
I can now chose my own schedule? I did miss the "good bits" of having a meaningful job!
Aside: I could never be a "Lazy Girl" ... A Lazy BOY is a couch anyway? 😅

An observatory MAY help in many ways! Or, "Welcome to your NEW 9-5 (plus!) Job"? 🤣
I would agree with the idea of doing SOLAR Astronomy. I derived a lot of enjoyment...
 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Macavity

[windjammer]

I mainly do imaging, so I don't actually have to be at an eyepiece.  Even so 3 or 4 nights on the trot would wipe me out - until recently!  My scope rig has now become so reliable that once set up on target and camera running, I can go and kip!  The only issues occur coming  up to meridian flip or other collision, or PHD guiding losing lock.  I set up a remote speaker from PC to bed so that when PHD starts bleeping I get woken up to fix.  Other than that an alarm clock to wake every 90 minutes so I can go and check operations - and that is probably overkill.  I have only got to this point in the last couple of months, but it has made the hobby a lot more liveable!

Simon

[Neil_104]

Good post - and a key topic for all astronomers! Maybe something to consider - instead of focusing on total hours of sleep, try to increase the quality of sleep. This will then allow extra observing time. So things like:

No blue light exposure 1 hour before bed (if imaging, turn on you laptop's blue-light shield/use a physical screen)

Ensure bedroom is completely dark (black-out blinds, think curtains etc), cool and quiet

Consider a white noise machine if neighbours/family members keep you awake, or if noises wake you in the night. Also good for masking the dreaded dawn chorus if you wake too early!

Limit caffeine after mid-afternoon.

Limit alcohol (Boo!) as it also reduces quality of sleep.

My sleep was pretty bad a few years back and I eventually took an online course called Sleepio. It really helped (and was where I learned about the above). I can now fall asleep within 5 mins of resting my head, whereas before I'd lie there for 30/60/90 mins, getting ever more frustrated, before dropping off. The course is not easy though! But I do recommend it and it'll give you permission for some very late nights because...well, you'll see if you take the course!

If I'm imaging, I'll get my whole night-time routine done prior to setting up (teeth, everything switched off, check under the bed for monsters etc), so I know that I can go from last checking PHD2 to bed in 5 mins, and then be asleep within 10 😴

I do need to improve on the alcohol thing though 🤪

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Neil_104

[Ouroboros]

Great thread! I always imagined most astronomers on SGL just don’t need sleep or sleep days or something. Good to hear others feel the same as me.   If observing the finish by midnight rule as mentioned works for me. I’m also an autumn, winter and spring astronomer only, not summer.  If staying up late several nights in a row, a mid afternoon sleep helps revive me for another late night. Being retired helps of course. Being older doesn’t. But I find it important when astronomising not to do too much during the day. You can’t burn the candle at both ends as they say.

As for imaging I’d like to get my set up safe to leave while I sleep. I haven’t managed that yet.  I don’t have an observatory. I only have a warm room (shed) next to the scope. But that means I can doze in a deckchair in the shed in the small hours. Not ideal but it means I can rush out with a scope cover if rain comes. A camping bed might work better. 

 

[windjammer]

re rain - I find this rain radar site really useful.  You can see it coming in god time !

https://www.meteoradar.co.uk/zoom/0/0/ActueleBuienradar?zoom=7&lat=51.507351&lon=-0.127758&region=London#

[Ouroboros]

27 minutes ago, windjammer said:

re rain - I find this rain radar site really useful.  You can see it coming in god time !

https://www.meteoradar.co.uk/zoom/0/0/ActueleBuienradar?zoom=7&lat=51.507351&lon=-0.127758&region=London#

Yes. I use a couple of similar weather sites. 

I’d like to set up some kind of rain detector too. Never got much further than googling. 

[WolfieGlos]

I’ve always been a light sleeper so it’s fortunate for this fairly new hobby. When I first started I would only stay up until 11pm, but as time has gone on I’ve found this to be quite limiting. Getting to sleep has been made easier with a new bed and mattress earlier this year, something I’d never given much thought to but it’s made a massive different. We’ve also got full blackout blinds, this wasn’t for Astro reasons, just to help me as I find I’m quite sensitive to light when trying to sleep.

I live nearly 50miles from the office, so I have to be up at 6:30 if I’m in the office for 8, but I’m quite fortunate in that I work at home a specific 2 or 3 days a week (alternates on a weekly basis). Even in the summer months this year I’ve been taking out the HEQ5, setting it up in, imaging, bringing the equipment back in at 3ish, downloading the images and then leaving it stacking to see what I’ve got. On a day working at home I can roll out of bed at 8.30 and start at 9 instead of 8! The company I work for is very flexible.

Ive even done this routine lately when working in the office, and if I can sleep an hour between setting up and taking down, then great, but if I lose a few hours then I’ll make up for it during the week or on a cloudy night. With the current UK weather, I’m currently making up for months of late nights. 😆

Lately I’ve taken a different approach to work/life balance; work is important but so is my own life, and I’ll put my hobby first if those rare clear skies make an appearance. But I’d struggle to do this if I was in the office 5 days a week.

On top of it all, probably most of all…I’m fortunate in that I have a very understanding and supportive wife 😂

Edited July 15, 2023 by WolfieGlos

[Fegato]

Kudos to those of you that juggle astronomy with work, I couldn't have done that - I retired early, and only started  astronomy after this and a move to dark skies in Wales. Really I need a full 8 hours sleep, and I don't like the cold much either, so my initial observing phase was limited to winter evenings, and I often found it a struggle. I gradually moved to imaging, and have got to the stage where this is my focus and I have it fully automated (after initial set up - I have a wheel out rig, that I can cover for a few days if needed).  Having said that, I often don't sleep that well when the rig is in action outside, particularly after a late evening getting set up, although I'm getting better at it. 

Despite my focus on imaging, there is certainly something special about being out there in the dark observing - so when the nights draw in I try and get out with binoculars for at least half an hour or so when the skies are clear. I find this relaxing and enjoyable - no fighting equipment, no feeling I have to stay outside to make the most of having spent all that time setting up. 

Anyway, look after your health Paz and everyone else, that's the most important thing.

 

 

 

[nitram100]

I can only observe when I don't have work the next day. No way in hell I can do a Nursing shift after a long night/early morning of observing !