Cost vs visual differences

[Ratlet]

I'm resisting buying expensive eyepieces because I believe the biggest issues I have is PBEAG (Problem Between Eyepiece and Ground).

Every time I looks through my eyepieces at a target I've viewed before I think I see more detail.  I get the feeling that looking is a skill and my skill level isn't up to getting the most from an expensive eyepiece or a massive wide field of view.

Going to the car analogy, im still learning to drive and I can do that in my Vauxhall Nova. 

[Zermelo]

1 hour ago, Ratlet said:

I'm resisting buying expensive eyepieces because I believe the biggest issues I have is PBEAG (Problem Between Eyepiece and Ground).

Every time I looks through my eyepieces at a target I've viewed before I think I see more detail.  I get the feeling that looking is a skill and my skill level isn't up to getting the most from an expensive eyepiece or a massive wide field of view.

Going to the car analogy, im still learning to drive and I can do that in my Vauxhall Nova. 

The more experienced members here often say that observing skills increase with practice. You really do see more, even with the same kit and conditions. Your brain is part of the train, so your reasoning about kit makes perfect sense to me. But that doesn't stop me wanting to buy more eyepieces.

[Don Pensack]

When I did auto racing, we used to refer to "driving at 9/10" or "driving at 10/10".

If you never drive at a level above 3/10, then the really fast cars are barely utilized, and there is very little difference with slower cars.

As your observing skill improves, you are moving up the scale, like the driver moving to a higher level.

It is at that point that the differences in eyepieces start to become apparent, and, once seen, important.

 

And your observing skills do improve with hours spent doing it.  It's like playing a piano--with a lot of practice, you can play Chopin and understand all the nuances,

where the beginner starts out with Chopsticks.  Observing teaches the eye and the brain how to see.

 

But, like the race car driver, being able to drive at 10/10 doesn't mean you can afford the faster car.

And a limited budget pay pull back on expectations.  There are a lot of very nice, non-limiting, eyepieces available today for £200-£350 that can satisfy even the most experienced observers.

Once the eyepieces get above a certain level, the differences are more in the observer and the atmosphere.

[Guest]

On 07/10/2022 at 13:04, bingevader said:

I can't afford these top end EPs and am unlikely to ever have a 'scope in which I would see the notable difference, so the 'lesser' performance at the lower price is all I am ever going to experience!

Which is where the car analogy falls over for me as well I'm afraid Don!

Does the $25k car get me from A to B? Job done.

 

That is where most of us probably area in all reality.  

[badhex]

On 07/10/2022 at 19:29, Ratlet said:

I'm resisting buying expensive eyepieces because I believe the biggest issues I have is PBEAG (Problem Between Eyepiece and Ground).

Every time I looks through my eyepieces at a target I've viewed before I think I see more detail.  I get the feeling that looking is a skill and my skill level isn't up to getting the most from an expensive eyepiece or a massive wide field of view.

Going to the car analogy, im still learning to drive and I can do that in my Vauxhall Nova. 

Could also call it PIONIO - Problem In Observer, Not In Optics 😂

[wookie1965]

On 07/10/2022 at 18:29, Ratlet said:

I'm resisting buying expensive eyepieces because I believe the biggest issues I have is PBEAG (Problem Between Eyepiece and Ground).

Every time I looks through my eyepieces at a target I've viewed before I think I see more detail.  I get the feeling that looking is a skill and my skill level isn't up to getting the most from an expensive eyepiece or a massive wide field of view.

Going to the car analogy, im still learning to drive and I can do that in my Vauxhall Nova. 

I have been observing for 12 years with scopes, I don't have any expensive eyepieces all mine were bought for under £70. I think I would buy more expensive eyepieces if I lived in bortle 2/3 skies as in my bortle 7/8 I don't think it will make much difference. 

[Carl Au]

So, the other night, Saturday as it happens I had a look through a 13mm Ethos at a club meeting. I have to report I didn’t like it very much. It was not very comfortable to use and apart from a wide field of view I didn’t think it was anything special and certainly not worth the money they currently command, I don’t get it. 

[IB20]

I’m dropping £1800 a year on petrol, my mortgage could be up by £400 a month next renewal. 

I think the Pentaxes, TOEs, Morphei and Delites of the world are actually incredible value. That’s not to say the BSTs and cheaper ranges aren’t, it’s actually amazing what’s currently available in EP ranges.

I certainly think there is a difference, I’ve compared my BSTs to the XWs and TOEs, I can tell but the BSTs are awesome EPs too. Is it worth the difference in cost? To me it is, even for these small margins. I can totally understand why others may not agree though. 

[JeremyS]

49 minutes ago, Carl Au said:

apart from a wide field of view I didn’t think it was anything special 

It’s the wide 100deg field that is the main point of the Ethos, Carl. 
But I do understand that people will attach a different value to that.

Edited October 19, 2022 by JeremyS

[Mr Spock]

On 07/10/2022 at 21:52, Don Pensack said:

And your observing skills do improve with hours spent doing it.  It's like playing a piano--with a lot of practice, you can play Chopin and understand all the nuances,

where the beginner starts out with Chopsticks.  Observing teaches the eye and the brain how to see.

 

Indeed. The same goes for audio. Many can't hear the nuances between different components such as capacitors or cable. It takes careful listening and training your ears to enjoy high-end music reproduction and hear those differences, albeit to me the differences are obvious.

Unfortunately, unlike astro, the negative minority tend to be very vocal. It's so easy for them to say differences don't exist, it's a marketing ploy, or expectation bias. Imagine saying that about eyepieces, or saying a Tak or Televue product is 'boutique' and not any better than a Tasco. 

Despite being a leading amateur speaker designer I stay off the forums. I do have a lot to offer, but, it just isn't worth the grief.

[Don Pensack]

2 hours ago, Carl Au said:

So, the other night, Saturday as it happens I had a look through a 13mm Ethos at a club meeting. I have to report I didn’t like it very much. It was not very comfortable to use and apart from a wide field of view I didn’t think it was anything special and certainly not worth the money they currently command, I don’t get it. 

I had used 82° eyepieces for 24 years when the first 100° eyepiece came out.

I had gotten to the point where I felt the 82° field was a bit cramped, so the 100° was an immediately comfortable way to view.
It actually had more eye relief than most of the 82° eyepieces I used a lot, so my initial reaction was than the 100° eyepiece had too much eye relief.

But looking around the field was already second nature, and there was just more field to look around at, which I immediately liked.

The first time I watched M13 exit the 100° field still completely resolved all the way to the core, I understood what was special about the 100°.

And the first time I noticed I could see red giants in M13 I could not see in my 82° eyepieces and ocher and reds on Jupiter that were not seen in the 82°, I realized

it was more than the width of field--it was contrast, color rendition, sharpness AND a wider field.

For me it was as much of a revolution as the appearance of the first 82° eyepieces.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Don Pensack

[Carl Au]

11 hours ago, JeremyS said:

It’s the wide 100deg field that is the main point of the Ethos, Carl. 
But I do understand that people will attach a different value to that.

I hadn’t really considering the 100 degree part of the experience, maybe that’s the bit I didn’t enjoy. Perhaps it’s just me, but it made me feel a little bit sick. I honestly didn’t know where to look. Maybe it’s the same thing that people get using vari-focals for the first time.  

[NotSoSuperNova]

11 hours ago, Mr Spock said:

Indeed. The same goes for audio. Many can't hear the nuances between different components such as capacitors or cable. It takes careful listening and training your ears to enjoy high-end music reproduction and hear those differences, albeit to me the differences are obvious.

Unfortunately, unlike astro, the negative minority tend to be very vocal. It's so easy for them to say differences don't exist, it's a marketing ploy, or expectation bias. Imagine saying that about eyepieces, or saying a Tak or Televue product is 'boutique' and not any better than a Tasco. 

Despite being a leading amateur speaker designer I stay off the forums. I do have a lot to offer, but, it just isn't worth the grief.

I suppose we're something of a peaceful bunch by nature. I find it strange that the AV community has always had that reputation. Especially when it's quite simple to evidence what the equipment is actually doing. By coincidence my best friends father was a designer at Cambridge Audio and Mission from around the 70's onwards, so your analogy isn't lost on me. I've had enough of a look behind the curtain to appreciate what that industry does and how seriously they take their work. Unfortunately that didn't give me any more of an appreciation of high-end audio equipment. 

My original question did revolve around the same point though. There doesn't seem to be much, if any information (except what's been put together by amateurs) that details eyepiece performance. And I find that slightly strange. Then again, it's perhaps just my nature to not accept that the 6mm Ethos and the equivalent XWA 100° (United Optics) are both very good eyepieces. I'm compelled to know the numbers that make it the case. 

No matter about spending time with AV community either. Their loss is our gain 😁

[Don Pensack]

here are a few links you might like:

http://astro-talks.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1483#p41976
https://web.archive.org/web/20110622011950/http://cieletespace.fr/files/InstrumentTest/201102_test_oculaires.pdf
https://web.archive.org/web/20130829052725/http://www.cieletespace.fr:80/files/InstrumentTest/201306__6_oculaires_10mm.pdf

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/attachments/3543229-Eyepiece transmissions of mine.pdf
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/attachments/3489738-transmission.txt
http://www.cloudynights.com/analysis/eyepieces/img13.html
http://www.amateurastronomie.com/Astronomie/tips/tips3.htm
http://www.cloudynights.com/analysis/eyepieces/img14.html

 

 

[Deadlake]

On 07/10/2022 at 10:59, Stu said:

The APM 20mm 100 degree is a pretty good rival to the 21 Ethos at a much lower price.

I’ve heard this elsewhere as well, interested if sky darkness would affect the conclusion. @jetstream was comparing them under 21.7 SQM skies.

[Carl Au]

23 hours ago, NotSoSuperNova said:

I suppose we're something of a peaceful bunch by nature. I find it strange that the AV community has always had that reputation. Especially when it's quite simple to evidence what the equipment is actually doing. By coincidence my best friends father was a designer at Cambridge Audio and Mission from around the 70's onwards, so your analogy isn't lost on me. I've had enough of a look behind the curtain to appreciate what that industry does and how seriously they take their work. Unfortunately that didn't give me any more of an appreciation of high-end audio equipment. 

My original question did revolve around the same point though. There doesn't seem to be much, if any information (except what's been put together by amateurs) that details eyepiece performance. And I find that slightly strange. Then again, it's perhaps just my nature to not accept that the 6mm Ethos and the equivalent XWA 100° (United Optics) are both very good eyepieces. I'm compelled to know the numbers that make it the case. 

No matter about spending time with AV community either. Their loss is our gain 😁

Well psychology has a major part in the purchase of anything. Peer pressure, expectation bias, bragging rights and just simply having more money than sense all play a part. Emperors new clothes syndrome effects loads and loads of hobbies. I don’t see why astronomy would be any different. 
 

Naglers…meh, Ethos perhaps,if I could get over the nausea. Thousand pounds for one eyepiece though!