Dwarf II Smart Telescope

[jjosefsen]

At the price point this is at, I could see it used for quick impromptu community events..

I run some local youth activities and have often thought about doing some astro stuff, but to use the gear I have takes some planning.
And every time I have made a plan to do some of this, the weather has spoiled it.. With a gadget like this I could just bring it "in case it was clear" and it wouldn't really be a bother..

Clearly there are limitations to this thing and what you can do with it, but with live stacking I think it could work for EAA like purposes.
I could even see my 7 year old son have some fun with this, and maybe spark an interest in astronomy..

[Vulisha]

Welly when I ordered this on Kickstarter I had very very simple calculation. 

 

Take most affordable, and most portable setup. 

 Dwarf is size of binoculars and costed me 290 USD as super early bird. 

 

Most adorable + portable setup would be

Tripod - 50USD, some old EOS M that can connect to PC or Rpi or astrocam - 150 USD, Some acceptable lens - 100 USD, skytracker ~ 200 USD, raspberry pi for Platesolving and capture 50 USD

 

Would weight double, take tripple space, cost at least double and it is fiddly to setup. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Vulisha

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

I am not claiming there is no market for this, I am claiming that this type of device is no replacement for larger telescopes, whether full-blown, go-to imaging rigs, or grab-and-go visual scopes or Dobsonians. It is just another tool in the box

[Elp]

Certainly as Evscope and Stellina have demonstrated there are people out there that it appeals to. For me personally, if there's no challenge, there's no reward. The journey makes it all worthwhile.

[etsatlo]

4 hours ago, bomberbaz said:

I own the eVscope and compared to that it is vastly underpowered. If I was just buying one for night time viewing then I would probably not buy this. 

However I think there is a good market for it as it is both terrestrial and night time, extremely portable and overall very ubiquitous. It would be great for astronomy clubs for outreach, schools and college for similar, there is definately a market out there for it. 

At about 15% of the price of the eVscope (give or take), that's the stand out feature.

Whilst I agree specs and aperture and flexibility can be challenged, at that price point I think they could be sat on a gold mine.

Mount, scope, sensor, plate solving, live stacking, goto, tracking, plate solving, solar imaging and daytime imaging all in one package the size of some binoculars? That's worth a punt (which I have!)

Edited December 13, 2022 by etsatlo
added plate solving

[bomberbaz]

5 minutes ago, etsatlo said:

At about 15% of the price of the eVscope (give or take), that's the stand out feature.

Whilst I agree specs and aperture and flexibility can be challenged, at that price point I think they could be sat on a gold mine.

Mount, scope, sensor, plate solving, live stacking, goto, tracking, solar imaging and daytime imaging all in one package the size of some binoculars? That's worth a punt (which I have!)

I did look at it but there was some warning that as a perk, receipt of the goods isn't guaranteed! What's all that about?

[Elp]

Maybe something to do with the funding nature and the people delivering the goods. The last time I backed something they used everyone's money and didn't deliver, just fizzled out and the platform washed their hand of it as it's "not their responsibility". Don't back anything now.

[etsatlo]

2 hours ago, Elp said:

Maybe something to do with the funding nature and the people delivering the goods. The last time I backed something they used everyone's money and didn't deliver, just fizzled out and the platform washed their hand of it as it's "not their responsibility". Don't back anything now.

I bought directly through their website using a credit card so covered as I can be. At this price it's a fair risk in my mind as I imagine demand will be high and a backlog will build up once it launches

[PeterW]

Not scopes do collect more light but spread it out more as they operate at higher powers. The f-ratio attects the brightness of the image (other things being equal. Reflectors tend to have a higher noise floor due to dust on the mirrors, one reason the camera lens powered Dragonfly telescope array is unique in detecting ultra faint structures round galaxies. 
The ability to produce acceptable images of a range of objects in a reasonable time under light pollution (do lens shields and filters help) is key to outreach, so people don’t get bored. No point in Hubble quality if you have to wait a hour, won’t get to see many objects. This affects all EEA scopes.

 

Peter

[bomberbaz]

15 hours ago, PeterW said:

Not scopes do collect more light but spread it out more as they operate at higher powers. The f-ratio attects the brightness of the image (other things being equal. Reflectors tend to have a higher noise floor due to dust on the mirrors, one reason the camera lens powered Dragonfly telescope array is unique in detecting ultra faint structures round galaxies. 
The ability to produce acceptable images of a range of objects in a reasonable time under light pollution (do lens shields and filters help) is key to outreach, so people don’t get bored. No point in Hubble quality if you have to wait a hour, won’t get to see many objects. This affects all EEA scopes.

 

Peter

Good point well made, here are some examples of eVscope objects in I think reasonable time.  I am still getting used to it but sitting inside when it's -10 outside and still being able to observe is great fun. 

[Elp]

On 15/12/2022 at 07:25, PeterW said:

so people don’t get bored

If the companies are pandering to this demographic, the companies themselves won't last long.

[denodan]

I have seen the small aperture won't do much, but your wrong. MY s21 Samdung Ultra has a much smaller lens aperture and have seen many do amazing results with it.

Sure bigger aperture is better, but if it was all about aperture and mattered then why are so many well known astrophotographers using small 50mm refractors?, if aperture was so important why are they not using 8 or 10" refractors.

I have seen some good results from this small aperture so do think a small aperture is limited, if that was the case the well known astrophotographers would not be using small refractors?

 

And remember your phone aperture is smaller yet dome great work don't with them.

But yes to get the best out of these need to process individual images through deep sky stacker, etc and the lazy geek on you tube has a great image of the Andromeda galaxy from Tokyo polluted skies.

It's a great little scope to do EAA or get wet doing astrophotography.

It's default is EAA and really made for these people who like EAA like me, but can take it further,  by simply processing the individual images, if you wish through deep sky stacker for better results,  so accually caters for those who want to go a little beyond EAA else you can get good results just live viewing and seeing the stacked final single image.

I got one have pre ordered one, and cost is not great for what you get, irs value fir money

 

[Elp]

Look at any telescope retailer, aperture costs money, and not on a linear scale. They also become very heavy, very quickly, especially in refractors. Also manufacturing the optics becomes more difficult the larger you go. Your phone may produce amazing results, but at the cost of resolution, you won't see much detail in the target. This is one of the reasons people use larger aperture scopes, as well as their light gathering and focal lengths being larger. I do get good results with a camera lens, better with a 60mm refractor and even better with a 6 inch scope, all are also portable setups, obviously not as portable as the dwarf which has its purpose.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Elp

[Vulisha]

Mine is coming this week, I expect 3 weeks of rain 😁

[Chris]

I really liked the idea of an affordable smart telescope but I didn't find the Dwarf II that usable right at the start. However, the Sticky buttons and bugs were soon fixed by firmware, and the very latest firmware has improved things a lot! Improved tracking and horizon limits on the goto as well as an unlinked stretch during live stacking have all made a big difference.  I'm really enjoying using it!

 

[denodan]

Cannot compare to the EV scope, 4 5" to 24mm. Evrn stellina is underpowered compared to eVscope. What would have been good is making it compatible with your telescope, a telescope adapter and ability of removable lens so can hook up stright to a telescope, or better yet offer a different lens, so a 30mm at extra cost. So removable lenses would have been great, but it's design may have prevented this or attacting it to your telescope 

 

[denodan]

That's a wrong comparison, because it suggests a big scope cannot be equipped with a modern sensor. Besides, to quote Scotty: Ye cannae change the laws of physics, captain". A big instrument captures more photons and has a higher resolution than a smaller. My APM 80 mm F/6 triplet is optically outstanding, but cannot match the resolution the 8" C8 has on planets. There is simply no contest. A 30mm scope will not show as much detail as, and will capture 4 times fewer photons from the same area in the sky than a 60 mm, this means the S/N is half as good. Resolution-wise, a little 30 mm lens will not be able to capture the moon like this:

 

 

A lot also cokes does to the F ratio in astrophotography rather than aperture. An F4 with gather more light in a shorter time than an F6, but the F4 has a smaller scale image, the F6 with have a larger image, but duller at the same exposures as the F4.

 

This is why the RASA at F2 Is becoming popular with many astrophotographers.

 

Have hears so many times astrophotographers saying ahorter f ratios are better more so than the aperture.

 

Seen many famous well known astrophotographers using tiny 2" telescopes so if aperture was king then all would be using much better apertures.

 

Doing DSO, photography is totally different to planetry, which more aperture is better, more resoultion, more detail. Aperture for DSO photography less important here F ratio matters more.

 

For galaxies and planets want long focal lenght and big aperture, DSO not so important, you want high F ratio for wider field of view.

 

The RASA at F2 is very fast, but image scale is small.

 

Still don't discount this 24mm lens on the Dwarf 2, can see much further than the eye, and knocks what you will ever see visually. 

 

To get the best out if this, you got to stack the riff files to get the most data and this gived you this option. 

 

This will still be better a 3" scope used visually and seen Andromeda Galaxy, with stacked tiffs far exceded what the eye will see unless you have a much larger aperture.

 

Photographically any telescope is far more powerful than visually observing. Did I not read somewhere a 3" photographically to something like a 12" scope visually? If this is true then this little 24mm scope is like using a 120mm scope visually.  Either way this knocks the socks off visual astronomy,  so we'll worth the money

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Cornelius Varley
gaps removed

[Ian McCallum]

@denodanwhy the huge gaps between sentences and paragraphs?☹️

[Cornelius Varley]

22 minutes ago, Ian McCallum said:

@denodanwhy the huge gaps between sentences and paragraphs?☹️

I assume to insert photos later. In the meantime the gaps in the text have been deleted.

[Ian McCallum]

5 hours ago, Cornelius Varley said:

I assume to insert photos later. In the meantime the gaps in the text have been deleted.

I thought my browser wasn't loading images correctly, but it wasn't the problem.  Posts can be edited later, to add photographs - I do that myself.

[Vulisha]

Got mine

It has a bit of coma, but tested only 600s orion, 1000s 7 sisters, and rossete but did not download that one.

 

Also app has some stability issues, guess they will sort it out, only thing I am missing is ability to conenct to local network. 

 

Telegram cropped m42 attached 

[Vulisha]

All 3, full res, no edit directly stacked and copied from Dwarf

All under 1000s

[denodan]

On 13/12/2022 at 10:13, Paul M said:

I'm intrigued by this product.  

It most certainly has a market. It's simple enough for a beginner to operate but requires some astronomical insight so maybe good for a young, budding astronomer?

I agree, it is the future! Robotic scopes that is. Never mind all this nefarious kit hanging off a complex mount, dripping with cables. None of it wanting to cooperate any other part!

The only choice you'll have is sensor spec and perhaps some aspect of the optical train. Fixed physical housing but interchangeable lenses.

 

 

The astrophotographers gear and setups well become a nince market,  just like how most just use their phones and only professionals or fans nowdays are using DSLR cameras.

[Vulisha]

300x10s under street lamps.Siril

Edited January 29, 2023 by Vulisha

[Elp]

Is that 300s x 10 or 10s x 300?