37 years ago - If only I had known……

[dweller25]

37 years ago (1985) I read the Astro Systems booklet cover to cover - Many times 🙂 trying to decide what should be my first telescope .

I decided to buy this very fine 8.5” Equatorially mounted Newtonian.

BUT I kept looking at the Vixen FL102s which for some strange reason it - even though it was only a 4” scope - attracted me, but the price £1300 at the time compared to the 8” Newt at just £595 seemed insane.

Roll on 37 years and I now have the modern version of what caught my eye all those years ago - A Tak FC100DZ Fluorite doublet on a motor driven Vixen Great Polaris mount - only now do I understand just how versatile/fun a good 4” Refractor can be.

Could have saved myself a fortune not buying all the stuff in between 😱  

 

PS - A Celestron C8 fork mounted Powerstar was £1750 back then 😱

 

Edited May 19, 2022 by dweller25

[JeremyS]

I read and read that catalogue too.

Enjoy the DZ 

[Ags]

Console yourself with the thought that even if you bought your perfect scope as a first scope, you would still have bought all the other scopes. You simply wouldn't know the 4 inch apo was perfect until you tried the big reflector, the planet killer Mak etc etc.

[Franklin]

1 hour ago, dweller25 said:

BUT I kept looking at the Vixen FL102s which for some strange reason it - even though it was only a 4” scope - attracted me, but the price £1300 at the time compared to the 8” Newt at just £595 seemed insane.

That's a blast from the past 👍.

I drooled over that scope back then too.

Here it is, the Vixen FL102s on a Super Polaris mount and my more modern SD103s on a Great Polaris mount, both fantastic telescopes.

 

[Peter Drew]

I still have one of each, the 102 FL and the 8.5" on the equatorial.  To be honest, I prefer the Newtonian over the refractor, they are both of similar optical quality but the extra aperture counts on many occasions.     🙂 

[F15Rules]

2 hours ago, JeremyS said:

I read and read that catalogue too.

Enjoy the DZ 

Me too!

It gave me a handle on how good high end fracs really are..👍

Lovely setup David.

Dave

[mikeDnight]

I know how you feel Dave.  I've had all manner of junk over the years, and spent a fortune trying to find scopes I'd like without spending a fortune. It doesn't work! May be if I'd have bought one of those beautiful Newtonians at the start, I'd have stuck with reflectors in blissful ignorance, but i couldnt afford one. I've never been one for going into debt for anything, but after observing through Peter's FL102 on January 3rd 2003, I knew I had to have one. I saved solidly, working as much overtime as I could for three months until I had enough money to buy one. Unfortunately for me the Vixens were unavailable in the UK when I wanted one, so I turned to Takahashi. Since then I've owned an FS128, FS152, FC100DC,  and now a FC100DZ. I have observed Mars simultaneously using my FC100DZ and a 200mm Orion Optics UK F6 Newtonian, and saw nothing in the Newt that wasn't also visible in the DZ. The DZ was more comfortable to observe with, and sharper with no diffraction spikes. I get that these medium aperture refractors aren't for everyone, but for me they are simply Nirvana. What they lack in aperture, they seem to more than compensate for in definition and clarity of image.

Below is my FC100DZ on a Vixen GP, - a perfect combination.

[josefk]

In any event that big newtonian is a fantastic and serious looking thing AND you can console yourself that you've beaten inflation on the Vixen buying the Tak just now. That Vixen refractor at 1985 prices would be £4200 today!

[F15Rules]

13 hours ago, Franklin said:

Here it is, the Vixen FL102s on a Super Polaris mount and my more modern SD103s on a Great Polaris

I just cannot wait to hear your thoughts on the inevitable comparison you're going to make between these two wonderful scopes, Tim..🤔

I really wouldn't like to call the result. I'm sure I've read that the FL102s' optics were by Canon Option, same as Takahashi, and, having owned two wonderful Vixen ED103s (virtually the same as the SD103s you have), I know just how good they are: in fact, had a 5" version of the Vixen ED103s been available when I decided to go for a 5" as my "one size fits all" scope, I'd have happily bought one.

But I have no regrets having bought the FS128..😁😍

Dave

Edited May 20, 2022 by F15Rules

[NGC 1502]

I certainly understand the ‘Refractor versus Reflector’ debate.   As I get older (now 74) I could live with a fine refractor as an “only scope”.  
 

As a double star fan the pinpoint stars with a good refractor are simply wonderful.  Just one thing I’d miss, the way a larger reflector resolves globular clusters into a blizzard of stars.

I’ve looked through fine 4” refractors owned by others, notably a Vixen 103 Apo, and TeleVue NP101.  Simply divine😊

Years back on a wonderfully transparent night at Kelling star party, a clubmate’s NP101 with his Nagler 31, was truly a night to remember, that occasion is etched on my memory forever.

Maybe one day…….

[wookie1965]

57 minutes ago, NGC 1502 said:

I certainly understand the ‘Refractor versus Reflector’ debate.   As I get older (now 74) I could live with a fine refractor as an “only scope”.  
 

As a double star fan the pinpoint stars with a good refractor are simply wonderful.  Just one thing I’d miss, the way a larger reflector resolves globular clusters into a blizzard of stars.

I’ve looked through fine 4” refractors owned by others, notably a Vixen 103 Apo, and TeleVue NP101.  Simply divine😊

Years back on a wonderfully transparent night at Kelling star party, a clubmate’s NP101 with his Nagler 31, was truly a night to remember, that occasion is etched on my memory forever.

Maybe one day…….

I have 3 refractors, I did have a 8" reflector but in light polluted skies it was hard to see anything but the brighter stuff, I was introduced to double stars by a very good friend. Now I use my 4" and 5" refractors on mostly double stars and brighter clusters and planetary nebula. But you are correct I also miss resolving clusters into individual stars and with M13 prominent now I do miss it.

[Macavity]

1 hour ago, NGC 1502 said:

I certainly understand the ‘Refractor versus Reflector’ debate.   As I get older (now 74)
I could live with a fine refractor as an “only scope”.

Only just cleared "standard" retirement age, but can really relate. I've "outlived" both of
my parents (in birth years) and "who knows"... now we are all... "living with the virus"?!? 😏

After looking through (laudable) Skywatcher STs, my small "Lightwave 60" is amazing! lol
I have an ED80 as objective for a Solar Frankenscope. And there are some nice 4" f/7 ED
'fracs which could be "dual purpose" - With an appropriate *ERF Filter* "somewhere"... 🤔

I never feel "completely sure" re. (my own) collimation of Newts?
But will keep my (lightweight) TS 8" f/4 as a "Video Lightbucket". 🙃
 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Macavity

[Peter Drew]

At this level I think there is more difference between observers than that of the telescopes.  Keen eyed observers of the likes of mikeDnight manage very well with 4" refractors whereas myself with aged eyes find the images too dim at the image scale I need to see the detail adequately.     ☹️ 

[Franklin]

3 hours ago, F15Rules said:

I just cannot wait to hear your thoughts on the inevitable comparison you're going to make between these two wonderful scopes, Tim..🤔

You'll have to wait till planet season Dave. I've had them out together already and the lunar views from both are the best I've seen in a 4". Up there with the FC100DC, contrast and clarity is superb without any ca. At low powers on a few Messier objects they are much the same, both being 4". A true test will be of the planetary definition they each serve up at high powers, that will reveal any differences in the optics, but I have a feeling it will be very close. Hopefully come December I'll have some clear skies and sky-time for the Mars opposition. If the seeing plays ball then that should sort the men from the boys! I'll set up the old 4" achro with them too, just to try and see how much the actual differences are.

A Vixen 4" refractor shootout!

Bring it on !

[F15Rules]

1 hour ago, Peter Drew said:

At this level I think there is more difference between observers than that of the telescopes.  Keen eyed observers of the likes of mikeDnight manage very well with 4" refractors whereas myself with aged eyes find the images too dim at the image scale I need to see the detail adequately.     ☹️ 

Agreed, Peter..having excellent eyesight is such a blessing if you're one of those fortunate enough to have it!

Dave

[F15Rules]

1 minute ago, Franklin said:

You'll have to wait till planet season Dave. I've had them out together already and the lunar views from both are the best I've seen in a 4". Up there with the FC100DC, contrast and clarity is superb without any ca. At low powers on a few Messier objects they are much the same, both being 4". A true test will be of the planetary definition they each serve up at high powers, that will reveal any differences in the optics, but I have a feeling it will be very close. Hopefully come December I'll have some clear skies and sky-time for the Mars opposition. If the seeing plays ball then that should sort the men from the boys! I'll set up the old 4" achro with them too, just to try and see how much the actual differences are.

A Vixen 4" refractor shootout!

Bring it on !

Yes!! I'd like to book a front row seat please!👍😁

Dave

[mikeDnight]

After getting my FC100DC in early 2015, it wasn't too long before an inevitable shoot-out took place; and it took place between three great scopes, including a Sky 90 and Peter Drew's superlative  Vixen FL102. This particular Vixen was the one that started me on an insane fluorite apo rollercoaster ride lasting almost 20 years, and that's cost me a small fortune. I wonder if I can claim compensation, as there was no warning on Peter's scope saying Observers Beware! 

I knew the FC100DC was up against a killer scope, and it actually kept pace with the Vixen very well, both on the Moon and Jupiter. Festoons, garlands, white ovals and barges were easily seen in both refractors with the DC giving a slightly warmer tone. Personally I prefer the cooler tone of the FL102, but at the end of the day I really couldn't fault the view through either. Mechanically the Vixen focuser was noticeably better than that on the Tak DC.

To date, I have not yet seen any apo that, aperture for aperture, beats the Vixen fluorite as a visual refractor. All that can be hoped for is that an apo can match the Vixen in terms of definition and contrast. The DC did remarkably well, and I've yet to give my DZ a serious run on the planets, but the DL is definitely the equal of the FL102. 

In the pic below, Peters FL102 has a shortened tube to the normal Vixen, which was done by Peter so that the scope could accommodate a binoviewer without the use of a barlow. 

[Peter Drew]

I remember this shootout as I was there at the time.  My main interest was by how much the Sky 90 in the middle would fall short of the two 4" scopes.  I had recently sold the Sky 90 to another friend that was also present.  I'd had the Sky 90 for a few years and had never used it on the night sky, I bought it originally to use as a Ha solar telescope and then found out how much a 90mm Coronado and matching blocking filter cost 😱.  The shootout was conducted on Jupiter and I was impressed with all three, particularly the Sky 90 which was snapping at the others' heels.  Good job for my friend that I had already sold it to him!.     🙂

[Stu]

I’m a refractor nut as I think you all know, particularly a sucker for a nice 4” apo.

These three are probably my most treasured Astro possessions and I really hope I can always hang onto them. I use the Tak the most as it does everything well, but the Vixen is wonderful on the Moon, doubles and planets, and the Genesis is amazing with a 31mm Nagler for wide field MilkyWay sweeping.

For the record:

Vixen FL102S f8.8

Takahashi FC100DC f7.4

Televue Genesis f5

You can really see just how compact the Tak is, compared with the others. The Vixen is a long and wide tube, whilst the Genesis is a heavy beast, very well made though.

I’m not blind to their limitations though. My Heritage 150p gives a clearer split on Zeta Herc than the Vixen, however much that reduces me to tears (😭😭🤣🤣)

For planetary the Vixen and Tak are wonderful, but again, my 8” f8 trumps them for resolution. I recall using both the 8” and Vixen on one night of excellent seeing when Mars was close to opposition last time. I spent most of my time with the 8” because the detail was significantly better. Doesn’t stop me loving the Vixen though, just wish I had @mikeDnight’s  eyeballs 🤣🤣

 

[StarryEyed]

Bank of England equivalent is £3,396.17 in today's money. Which considering it includes the mount suggests the price has been pretty stable. Even if we all gripe about price rises. 

The thing I like the most about this is Vixen are still going strong thirty seven years later and that the FL102 and GP mount are still considerd a benchmark after all that time. Thats quite a feat in any industry. Makes you wonder how many brands you see on FLO's site will be able to claim the same about their current products and thats even if there still around. You might argue these days that Vixen are overpriced but the truth might be their just under appriciated with so many other options from upstart companies. Ive loved my skywatcher equipment but Ive never admired their stuff for their quality in the same way I have Vixen equipment. I SOLD ALL my synta made optics but have hung onto some vixen without realising it at the time but its just better quality at the end of the day. Its said you have more surplus cash when your younger so as a matter of necessity you learn to spend more wisely as you get older maybe thats at the heart of this thread. As the review says "best all round choice for the committed astronomer" Its about realising this is you and a four inch apo is the right choice. I was a committed astronomer at age twelve but had to wait another thirty eight years before I could afford to become a financially committed astronomer! 

 

[mikeDnight]

You have three dream refractors there Stu. It really shows how Tak have managed to reduce the bulk of their 4" apo's while maintaining the punch. I love the DC very much. The Vixen however is a hard act to follow.