Baader Morpheus range - General chat

[Don Pensack]

53 minutes ago, Deadlake said:

I was thinking of 17.5 mm Morpheus for bino usage, any others I should consider?

For larger magnifications the 9 mm Morpheus also looking interesting, again any other EP's I should consider?

Thanks

Think a 40% magnification progression: 17.5mm>>12.5mm>>9mm>>6.5mm>>4.5mm

Now you see the WHY of the focal length progression.  the 14mm is the odd man out--the largest focal length in the original internal design.

The 17.5mm has a different internal design, which is why it has a different eye relief, focuses at a different place, and a slightly different apparent field.

It feels remarkably the same, though, which is a credit to the designers.  It took them 3 tries to get it right.

[Piero]

3 hours ago, jetstream said:

Rumor at the coffee shop has it that the 9mm Morph is the sweetheart of the line- thoughts?

 

I compared my Baader Morpheus 9mm against a Nagler T6 9mm and Delos 8mm using my 16" F4 reflector + PC2. In my opinion:

- the BM9 is as immersive as the N9

- the BM9 is more comfortable, although without spectacles, I find the T6 naglers quite comfortable..

- on-axial sharpness / contrast seem identical to me. I would say they go deep in a very similar way

- off-axial sharpness / contrast, the Nagler is better (from 50% of the fov). In particular, the BM9 shows some astigmatism (nothing terrible, but noticeable). Stars are consistently tight in the Nagler across the whole FOV

- colour rendition... well, to me the Nagler is more engaging here, as stars seem more colourful and vibrant.

- field curvature: none of them showed FC to my eye, but 1) the focal length of my 16" +PC2 is 1870mm, 2) my observing eye is only 38 years old

- chromatic aberrations: to my eye none was visible 

 

The Delos 8 is sharper and goes a bit deeper than both and colour rendition is excellent to me. I am not a great fan of their eye cup sliding mechanism, but maybe it's just me being a drama-queen  . My favourite eye cup design is like the Docter or APM UFF 30mm, but I'm also fine with the Vixen SLV style. Oh well, I guess I will need to adapt and get used to it.

 

I haven't tried he Nagler T6 9mm with the VIP barlow, but I did with the BM 9. With the latter, I have not seen an appreciable improvement which instead I've consistently seen when the VIP is added to other eyepieces (e.g. Zeiss zoom 20-75x, Nikon zoom, Vixen SLV, Delos). It was as if the VIP barlow was out of the way and the eyepiece showed a magnified field. With the other eyepieces, the VIP tends to make stars tighter, sharpening the views.. I still remember that time when I VIP barlowed my Vixen SLV 5mm and compared against the Vixen HR 2.4mm on my TV-60 observing Jupiter.. The barlowed SLV was just a tad behind, but really not much at all. At ~150x, both eyepieces showed far more detail (sharp detail) than the Nagler T6 3.5mm at ~100x. That was probably the most beautiful observation I had of that planet with that small telescope. Also the Delos responds well with the VIP.

 

 

In summary, I agree with Don that the BM works very well up to probably f/4.5 - 4.7 . Above that, they are real bargain eyepieces. Below that, one might start thinking about other options if the desire is to have a highly and consistently corrected FOV. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Piero

[jetstream]

1 hour ago, Deadlake said:

any other EP's I should consider?

I love my 16T5 Nagler. It does not have the same coatings that I can tell, as a Delos/Ethos, but its 82 deg views are great. Some dislike this eyepiece, eye relief etc. Explore Scientific comes close in some regards to Nagler performance - however scatter is better controlled in my 16T5. (as compared to a 18mm ES 82).

Check out the 16T5's...

Edited August 5, 2021 by jetstream

[jetstream]

41 minutes ago, Piero said:

With the other eyepieces, the VIP tends to make stars tighter, sharpening the views..

My experience as well. The 16T5 Nagler becomes top tier sharp with the VIP. I presume the same effect with a GPC or OCS in binoviewers.

Your experiences mirror my own or vice versa. The Delos becomes top tier sharp with the VIP, residing nicely next to the VIP/Docter/Zeiss zoom, Vixen HR. Good to note that all these eyepieces have extremely low/no scatter.

This is not to say Delos are not sharp native- they are. However a good set of eyes under good conditions and with a nit picking personality will show up differences in things

[Stu]

4 hours ago, Deadlake said:

I was thinking of 17.5 mm Morpheus for bino usage, any others I should consider?

For larger magnifications the 9 mm Morpheus also looking interesting, again any other EP's I should consider?

Thanks

Which scope Martin?

[Deadlake]

14 hours ago, Stu said:

Which scope Martin?

One of these:

 

130mm/F6

It's shorter then a SD103S...

[jetstream]

2 hours ago, Deadlake said:

One of these:

 

130mm/F6

It's shorter then a SD103S...

Ok, I'm officially jealous!!

Wanna trade?!

[Deadlake]

2 hours ago, jetstream said:

Ok, I'm officially jealous!!

Wanna trade?!

What you got! 😉

Better be quick before admins like @Stu close the bartering down as on wrong forum...  

Edited August 6, 2021 by Deadlake

[Barry-W-Fenner]

On 05/08/2021 at 19:05, Don Pensack said:

Think a 40% magnification progression: 17.5mm>>12.5mm>>9mm>>6.5mm>>4.5mm

Now you see the WHY of the focal length progression.  the 14mm is the odd man out--the largest focal length in the original internal design.

The 17.5mm has a different internal design, which is why it has a different eye relief, focuses at a different place, and a slightly different apparent field.

It feels remarkably the same, though, which is a credit to the designers.  It took them 3 tries to get it right.

Evening (here) Don

That was an interesting read. I understand that the 17.5 was added to the range a few yrs??  After the other 5 EP's and this is down to the redesign. I also read that the 17.5mm was the longest FL that Baader could produce due to the design of the EP. In your opinion do you think it is possible for Baader to continue producing longer FLs in this EP range such as a 20mm or even 25mm - I assume anything over a 25mm would need to be a 2" maybe?

Cheers

Baz

[Don Pensack]

14 minutes ago, Barry-W-Fenner said:

Evening (here) Don

That was an interesting read. I understand that the 17.5 was added to the range a few yrs??  After the other 5 EP's and this is down to the redesign. I also read that the 17.5mm was the longest FL that Baader could produce due to the design of the EP. In your opinion do you think it is possible for Baader to continue producing longer FLs in this EP range such as a 20mm or even 25mm - I assume anything over a 25mm would need to be a 2" maybe?

Cheers

Baz

Baz,

In this design, I think anything longer than 17.5mm would have to be a 2" eyepiece, so, no, I don't think there will be longer focal lengths.

It isn't just about the size of the field stop, it's also about how light is handled in the design.

It would have to be fatter, heavier, longer, and a lot more expensive--look at the 31mm Nagler for an idea of shape.

It's easy to make an all-positive design with a field stop up to the diameter of the barrel interior (like the 24mm Hyperion), but it doesn't work with a negative/positive design.

The lenses above the negative lens have to be significantly larger in diameter or have very complex curves, both of which add price and weight to the eyepiece.

You wouldn't buy a 20mm Morpheus if it were 2" and twice as heavy and twice as expensive, but it might need to be.  Think 22mm Nagler, for example.

Baader has not really gone in for long focal length 2" eyepieces except the 31mm and 36mm Hyperions, which aren't in the same quality range as the Morpheus eyepieces.

 

[Barry-W-Fenner]

17 minutes ago, Don Pensack said:

Baz,

In this design, I think anything longer than 17.5mm would have to be a 2" eyepiece, so, no, I don't think there will be longer focal lengths.

It isn't just about the size of the field stop, it's also about how light is handled in the design.

It would have to be fatter, heavier, longer, and a lot more expensive--look at the 31mm Nagler for an idea of shape.

It's easy to make an all-positive design with a field stop up to the diameter of the barrel interior (like the 24mm Hyperion), but it doesn't work with a negative/positive design.

The lenses above the negative lens have to be significantly larger in diameter or have very complex curves, both of which add price and weight to the eyepiece.

You wouldn't buy a 20mm Morpheus if it were 2" and twice as heavy and twice as expensive, but it might need to be.  Think 22mm Nagler, for example.

Baader has not really gone in for long focal length 2" eyepieces except the 31mm and 36mm Hyperions, which aren't in the same quality range as the Morpheus eyepieces.

 

Truth is I don't fully understand all of that, I do however appreciate an informed/wise opinion.  So I guess we won't be seeing anything larger than the 17.5 in the Morpheus range. Any recommendations for something arround the 25mm that performs similar?

Cheers Dom

[Deadlake]

30 minutes ago, Barry-W-Fenner said:

Truth is I don't fully understand all of that, I do however appreciate an informed/wise opinion.  So I guess we won't be seeing anything larger than the 17.5 in the Morpheus range. Any recommendations for something arround the 25mm that performs similar?

Cheers Dom

24 mm APM UFF, a very good EP, however 65 degrees not the 72 you might be looking for. Also bino’s well.

[Deadlake]

23 hours ago, Stu said:

Which scope Martin?

For an F6 as well as well as an F7.7. Presume Morpheus 9 mm will work well.

[Louis D]

2 hours ago, Don Pensack said:

In this design, I think anything longer than 17.5mm would have to be a 2" eyepiece, so, no, I don't think there will be longer focal lengths.

It isn't just about the size of the field stop, it's also about how light is handled in the design.

It would have to be fatter, heavier, longer, and a lot more expensive--look at the 31mm Nagler for an idea of shape.

Unless they go with a design similar to the 30mm APM UFF which uses a compression instead of expansion section ahead of the field stop.  Of course, it wouldn't be the same negative/positive design methodology as the rest of the line.  However, the eyepiece width could be kept fairly narrow to allow for binoscope usage.

[Don Pensack]

On 06/08/2021 at 14:05, Louis D said:

Unless they go with a design similar to the 30mm APM UFF which uses a compression instead of expansion section ahead of the field stop.  Of course, it wouldn't be the same negative/positive design methodology as the rest of the line.  However, the eyepiece width could be kept fairly narrow to allow for binoscope usage.

At a higher cost and higher weight, so it doesn't really get to the same point--a 1.25" eyepiece longer than 17.5mm with an ultra-wide field.

And Ackermann was only able to pull off a 70° field in that 30mm APM in 2", not 76° .

It could be like the 22mm Nagler, but despite a slightly narrower apparent field, the desire for a longer eye relief would increase the size and weight, so you'd be back to Nagler weight and price (maybe a bit less), which

again would defeat the purpose.  

Seriously, a 2" Morpheus with a longer focal length than 17.5mm would be expensive and heavy, so just quite unlikely.

Just as there is no 2" TeleVue Delos, or 2" TeleVue Delite.

Could it be done?  Possibly.  At a price and weight the current Morpheus buyer would buy?  Probably not.

[IB20]

I managed to get a bargain priced 2nd hand 17.5mm Morpheus which got first light last night. I’m blown away by how good it is, it’s a sensational bit of kit and like looking out of the window of the ISS. I used it in an 8” dob & 80mm refractor and was astonished at the images I was getting of Jupiter, like something from an astronomy magazine. It also barlowed like a dream in the dob. I can’t rate it highly enough.

[jetstream]

2 hours ago, IB20 said:

I’m blown away by how good it is

Congrats!

Your reaction and my reaction to good glass are the same- it grabs the attention and holds on.Baaders newest coating recipe, possibly founded on Zeiss's past is right up there with very best IMHO. ie Ethos/Delos/ Nikon HW.

Another thread has the possible theme that eyepieces dont make much difference- this is not my experience. They do.

Edited August 13, 2021 by jetstream

[IB20]

15 minutes ago, jetstream said:

Congrats!

Your reaction and my reaction to good glass are the same- it grabs the attention and holds on.Baaders newest coating recipe, possibly founded on Zeiss's past is right up there with very best IMHO. ie Ethos/Delos/ Nikon HW.

Another thread has the possible theme that eyepieces dont make much difference- this is not my experience. They do.

Maybe there is some subconscious bias, I don’t know but from my observations last night, my TV DeLite 13mm and Baader Morpheus 17.5mm showed the most defined and detailed images in comparison to my BSTs. So much so that I’m now thinking of selling most of my BSTs and buying a 9mm Morpheus and 7mm Delite. The images I saw of Jupiter last night were astonishing and will remain in my memory for a very long time!

[jetstream]

2 hours ago, IB20 said:

I used it in an 8” dob & 80mm refractor

Your experience is not only a testament to the Morpheus's ability but also to the quality of your scopes optics, another requirement to get good eyepiece performance, along with good sky conditions.IMHO.

Its amazing the views possible when everything comes together.

 

[IB20]

4 minutes ago, jetstream said:

Your experience is not only a testament to the Morpheus's ability but also to the quality of your scopes optics, another requirement to get good eyepiece performance, along with good sky conditions.IMHO.

Its amazing the views possible when everything comes together.

 

Agree whole heartedly with this. I’d say both scopes performed at their optimum last night.  The conditions were just perfect too, I took two SQM readings of 20.7 & 21.0 which is as good as I can get from my back yard. I could even see a faint Milky Way running across the sky. 

[John]

I really must try a Morpheus sometime

 

[IB20]

10 minutes ago, John said:

I really must try a Morpheus sometime

 

You must! When I unboxed it I wasn’t sure how looking through an eyepiece so wide would actually work, I’d assumed there’d be blackouts and difficulty getting the right viewing position. None of that happened, it was so easy to use. I can’t wait for the next opportunity I get to use it and yes, more of them are now on my wish list.

[John]

5 minutes ago, IB20 said:

You must! When I unboxed it I wasn’t sure how looking through an eyepiece so wide would actually work, I’d assumed there’d be blackouts and difficulty getting the right viewing position. None of that happened, it was so easy to use. I can’t wait for the next opportunity I get to use it and yes, more of them are now on my wish list.

It would be very interesting to compare the 17.5 Morpheus with these:

Edited August 13, 2021 by John

[IB20]

4 minutes ago, John said:

It would be very interesting to compare the 17.5 Morpheus with these:

It did surprise me with how big it was in the hand and it’s the smallest of the range so the others must be real grenades. The size of that ES17 😅, that’d probably break my mount. 

[Barry-W-Fenner]

9 minutes ago, IB20 said:

It did surprise me with how big it was in the hand and it’s the smallest of the range so the others must be real grenades. The size of that ES17 😅, that’d probably break my mount. 

That made me chuckle. I actually purchased the 17.5mm last, So to me it was like a minature version of the others and quite "cute" 🙂

Reading your other posts reminds me of how I felt when I recieved my 1st Morph, I was totally blown away by the immersion and image they provided. I sold my BST range which were perfectly good EPS in there own right to fund my next Morph.

I would say the 9mm is well worth a purchase. It performs just as well as the 17.5  - they are my two favorite in the range. I am yet to try the 12.5mm I hear that is a great EP but I have the 14mm so doubt I will purchase it. I did note that the 12.5mm has slightly better eye relief than the 14mm  however that doesnt really justify the purchase! 🙂

 

Baz