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Baader Morpheus range - General chat


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19 minutes ago, Barry-W-Fenner said:

Did you order through FLO? I only ask as I was looking this morning and noticed the 1.25mm they had has now sold. I have the same scope and would liketo know how he 12.5 performs in it!

 

Baz

Baz

Yeah that was me doing some Sunday night shopping.  I will let you know how I get on with it. Will see how it compares to the Nirvanas

 

cheers

Ian

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9 hours ago, John said:

Like the term "Super Apochromat" which is being applied to a few refractor lines now ?

Back on the Morpheus range, does the actual AFoV of the 17.5mm Morpheus match the spec of 76 degrees ?. Has it been measured independently ?

 

 

Hi John,

Only just seen your question, and of course it's now been very fully answered by Don Pensack👍.

He clearly likes the eyepiece, regardless of whether it truly delivers a full 76 degree field. Visually, it's very difficult to detect relatively small differences versus other similar eyepieces even if exactly the same focal length..I guess you need to use a drift method or similar, and I've never looked through either a Delos or ES.

I do think that the contrast and edge of field performance of the Morpheus range stand up very well to comparison with my own informal  "benchmark" range, the excellent Pentax XWs..the latter of course are "only" 70 degrees, so whatever the Morpheus' actually measure, they are comfortably wider than the Pentax's..

And still much cheaper than any of the other competitors 👍.

Dave

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6 hours ago, Barry-W-Fenner said:

Hi all,

I am loking to purchase the attached Baader Coma corrector for my 300p to use in conjunction with my Morpheus EPS. I have a few questions if I may..

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/coma-correctors/baader-mpcc-visual-photographic-set.html

Is the coma corrector a permanent install on the scope or do you only use it when the need arises?

At the momnet I have a 2" 47mm clicklock on my scope with 2" to 1.25" clicklock reducer - This enabled me to do away with the standard 47mm extention provided with the scope. If I instal the CC will I need to do away with this combination or can I still use the clicklocks.  In fact I may do away with the 2" to 1.25 and use the Morphesus eps in 2" instead. Is there any benefit to doing this?

Will the CC change the focal length of my scope or does it just flatten the field?

Anyone have any experiance with this cc? Silly question but does it take away the slight comet shape I occasionally see of axis?

Thank you

Baz

My questions about this:

  1. How much back focus is required for it?  I'm seeing ~55mm of spacing to the image plane, but that doesn't address in-focus.
  2. If a lot of in focus is required, how do you insert it deeply into a 2" focuser with all those knurled rings hanging out?
  3. How do you insert 2" eyepieces into a 1.25" holder?  Most CCs come with 2" eyepiece holders.
  4. How much spherical aberration is introduced at high power?  Will you need to remove it to get the best image in the center at high powers?
  5. How much does it flatten a curved Newtonian field?  It doesn't mention this at all.

Most folks in the past simply attached the MPCC to the 2" filter threads of low power 2" eyepieces with the appropriate amount of M48 spacer rings.  They didn't not use it as a general purpose CC.

The MPCC won't change the focal length of your scope, but I also see nothing about it doing any field flattening, only coma correcting.

I ended up getting the GSO coma corrector and added a 25mm M48 spacer ring between the holder and the optics section.  I parfocalized my 12mm Nagler T4 to work with it.  The rest of my eyepieces come to focus close enough to the eyepiece shoulder so as to not need parfocalization to get good coma correction.  The GSO mildly field flattens as well, which is a welcome benefit.  It does add some SA, so I remove it at high powers.

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44 minutes ago, Louis D said:

My questions about this:

  1. How much back focus is required for it?  I'm seeing ~55mm of spacing to the image plane, but that doesn't address in-focus.
  2. If a lot of in focus is required, how do you insert it deeply into a 2" focuser with all those knurled rings hanging out?
  3. How do you insert 2" eyepieces into a 1.25" holder?  Most CCs come with 2" eyepiece holders.
  4. How much spherical aberration is introduced at high power?  Will you need to remove it to get the best image in the center at high powers?
  5. How much does it flatten a curved Newtonian field?  It doesn't mention this at all.

Most folks in the past simply attached the MPCC to the 2" filter threads of low power 2" eyepieces with the appropriate amount of M48 spacer rings.  They didn't not use it as a general purpose CC.

The MPCC won't change the focal length of your scope, but I also see nothing about it doing any field flattening, only coma correcting.

I ended up getting the GSO coma corrector and added a 25mm M48 spacer ring between the holder and the optics section.  I parfocalized my 12mm Nagler T4 to work with it.  The rest of my eyepieces come to focus close enough to the eyepiece shoulder so as to not need parfocalization to get good coma correction.  The GSO mildly field flattens as well, which is a welcome benefit.  It does add some SA, so I remove it at high powers.

Thank you Louis, This has raised more questions than answers. Its certainly put the purchase on hold until I find out more.

Do you have a link to the GSO model you have? I wonder if this would play nice in my 300p with the Morpheus EPS

bAZ

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2 hours ago, Barry-W-Fenner said:

Thank you Louis, This has raised more questions than answers. Its certainly put the purchase on hold until I find out more.

Do you have a link to the GSO model you have? I wonder if this would play nice in my 300p with the Morpheus EPS

bAZ

I have the gso CC with spacer as recommended by Louis and use it in a 250p with Morpheus. Not much miles on the clock yet but does seem to work. In Europe I could only find it branded as Omegon. 
 

the skywatcher Cc is a 0.9x reducer and has issues with back focus I believe. So that wasn’t desirable. Really the only solutions I could find after looking around was a modified GSO cc or a paracorr which is MUCH more expensive. 
 

the gso  is a 1.1x Barlow (paracorr 1.15x) so that’s worth factoring in. Most of the coma correctors on the market seem specifically aimed at astrophotography and don’t play well with eyepieces and visual. 

Edited by Sargares
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4 hours ago, Barry-W-Fenner said:

Thank you Louis, This has raised more questions than answers. Its certainly put the purchase on hold until I find out more.

Do you have a link to the GSO model you have? I wonder if this would play nice in my 300p with the Morpheus EPS

bAZ

I forgot to mention that with the 25mm spacer ring in the GSO CC, I need 11mm of additional in focus which is quite manageable.

Also, immediately replace the shoddy screws with steel M4 cap head screws.  One of mine simply sheared off while tightening it on an eyepiece and I haven't been able to remove its remnants from the holder yet.

It used to be available as the Revelation CC in the UK/Europe, but I'm not seeing it listed any longer.

As @Sargares says above, it is available as Omegon in Europe and might be in stock.  Ping them about availability.

You could also try a wanted ad on (I think) Astro Buy Sell or even here on SGL classifieds.

In the US:

There's also the Explore Scientific HR CC that requires 35mm of in focus and has an adjustable eyepiece holder.  It's also out of stock and quite a bit more expensive.

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21 hours ago, globular said:

With a measured field stop of 21.7 that gives a calculated AFOV of 71 degrees.

So a measured FOV of 74 gives geometric distortion of about +4.2%.

Sounds fairly high…  ?

At that apparent field, figures as high as 10% are not uncommon.  4% is close to the figure found in many 55-60° eyepieces.

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13 hours ago, Barry-W-Fenner said:

Hi all,

I am looking to purchase the attached Baader Coma corrector for my 300p to use in conjunction with my Morpheus EPS. I have a few questions if I may..

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/coma-correctors/baader-mpcc-visual-photographic-set.html

Is the coma corrector a permanent install on the scope or do you only use it when the need arises?

At the moment I have a 2" 47mm clicklock on my scope with 2" to 1.25" clicklock reducer - This enabled me to do away with the standard 47mm extension provided with the scope. If I install the CC will I need to do away with this combination or can I still use the clicklocks.  In fact I may do away with the 2" to 1.25 and use the Morpheus eps in 2" instead. Is there any benefit to doing this?

Will the CC change the focal length of my scope or does it just flatten the field?

Anyone have any experience with this cc? Silly question but does it take away the slight comet shape I occasionally see off axis?

Thank you

Baz

It is hard to use--it attaches directly to the eyepiece, but to get it the required distance from the focal plane of each eyepiece, it's necessary to have a different length of spacer stack attached to every eyepiece.

The easy way to do that is to optimize the spacer stack on one eyepiece and focus the scope.  Then, add or subtract spacers from every other eyepiece until it is parfocal with the first eyepiece you optimized

without using the focuser of the scope.  You won't be able to perfectly parfocalize all the eyepieces, but if you get them all within about 2mm, you're OK.

There is also a 1.25" adapter it can attach to that, because most 1.25" eyepieces are closer to the same focus, can be used with parfocalizing rings on the eyepieces themselves.

If all the spacers are correctly chosen, all the eyepieces will become approximately parfocal.  Typically, you leave the spacers on the eyepieces and merely transfer the CC to the next eyepiece like a filter.

The GSO coma corrector is easier to use, and the Explore Scientific and TeleVue coma correctors require no spacers and are the easiest to use.

If the scope is f/5 or faster, you'll want coma correction at all powers.  At f/5, only the center 2.2mm of field is coma free otherwise, and it's only 1.1mm at f/4.

 

1) the working distance between lens and eyepiece focal plane (or chip) is ~55mm.  It requires a placement closer to the mirror than the focal plane of the scope, so the focuser may move in some

while the eyepieces move out.

2) The Morpheus eyepieces cannot be used in 2" mode with the Baader MPCC--you'll never get the eyepiece far enough away from the CC lens.  You must use them as 1.25" eyepieces.

3) It does not change the focal length of the scope and has negligible effect on field flattening.  It will also add some spherical aberration on axis, so might be a negative for planet viewing at high powers.

4) Yes, it will correct the visible coma down to about f/4.5 in a full-field eyepiece.  Below f/4.5, the field size corrected shrinks.

The aberration you see in the outer field could be astigmatism combined with coma.  The MPCC can correct the coma, but won't help the astigmatism.

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7 hours ago, Louis D said:

My questions about this:

  1. How much back focus is required for it?  I'm seeing ~55mm of spacing to the image plane, but that doesn't address in-focus.
  2. If a lot of in focus is required, how do you insert it deeply into a 2" focuser with all those knurled rings hanging out?
  3. How do you insert 2" eyepieces into a 1.25" holder?  Most CCs come with 2" eyepiece holders.
  4. How much spherical aberration is introduced at high power?  Will you need to remove it to get the best image in the center at high powers?
  5. How much does it flatten a curved Newtonian field?  It doesn't mention this at all.

Most folks in the past simply attached the MPCC to the 2" filter threads of low power 2" eyepieces with the appropriate amount of M48 spacer rings.  They didn't not use it as a general purpose CC.

The MPCC won't change the focal length of your scope, but I also see nothing about it doing any field flattening, only coma correcting.

I ended up getting the GSO coma corrector and added a 25mm M48 spacer ring between the holder and the optics section.  I parfocalized my 12mm Nagler T4 to work with it.  The rest of my eyepieces come to focus close enough to the eyepiece shoulder so as to not need parfocalization to get good coma correction.  The GSO mildly field flattens as well, which is a welcome benefit.  It does add some SA, so I remove it at high powers.

1. The amount of infocus varies according to the scope's f/ratio.  The Paracorr is ~14mm, and the MPCC seemed to be less when I was fooling around with it.

2. The knurled ring is for certain camera adapter attachment.  It is removed for visual use.

3. you don't.  One of the accessories needed for the MPCC is the 1.25" adapter which allows 1.25" eyepieces to be used with the 2" MPCC.

You do need a 2" focuser--there is no 1.25" MPCC.

4. I saw a lot of spherical aberration in the out of focus star images, so I think it would be wise to remove it at high powers for planet viewing.

However, you will also need to have a tracking mount, then, as only the center of the field will be coma free.

This makes the ES HRCC and TeleVue Paracorr better, since they do not add spherical aberration.

And, they add a bit of magnification as well, not a bad thing for planets, Moon, double stars, planetaries.

5. I didn't see any evidence of field flattening.  In my f/5 dob, the 35mm Panoptic has a slightly curved focal plane, so a different focus in center and at the edge.

I saw the same thing when the MPCC was used.

 

6. I agree the GSO is a better choice and easier to optimize for all eyepieces.  It's 1.1x also has some field flattening.

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Well, after thinking about it for quite a while, I took the plunge on the 4.5mm yesterday. I figured getting quality glass with decent eye relief for the best possible higher power view (within reasonable budget) is a good match for the quality glass in my ZS73, and for high power in the C5 I'll stick with the BCO 6mm.

Hopefully should arrive in the next few days. 

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6 hours ago, Barry-W-Fenner said:

Massive Thank you to @Louis D @Don Pensack & @Sargares for your help with the CC.

I have ordered one from Omegon via the above link. Not a bad price either at £112

Appreciate all your help!

Baz

Ah, the Omegon re-badged GSO unit.

One of the starting points for use as a visual corrector is to add a 19mm spacer between the upper barrel and the lens housing.

One very easy way to use it is to parfocalize all your eyepieces first to your eyepiece that needs the most in-travel at the focuser.

Here is a long thread on optimizing the GSO coma corrector for visual use:

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/462985-setting-up-the-gso-coma-corrector/

 

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35 minutes ago, Don Pensack said:

Ah, the Omegon re-badged GSO unit.

One of the starting points for use as a visual corrector is to add a 19mm spacer between the upper barrel and the lens housing.

One very easy way to use it is to parfocalize all your eyepieces first to your eyepiece that needs the most in-travel at the focuser.

Here is a long thread on optimizing the GSO coma corrector for visual use:

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/462985-setting-up-the-gso-coma-corrector/

 

Thanks Don, I assume the 19mm spacer doesnt come with the kit. Can I still use it as it is, abiet it wont be parfocal.

Baz

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1 hour ago, Barry-W-Fenner said:

Thanks Don, I assume the 19mm spacer doesn't come with the kit. Can I still use it as it is, albeit it wont be parfocal.

Baz

No.  it is not a simple "drop the eyepiece in" device.  At least, not without first adjusting the eyepieces.  I'll explain:

 

A coma corrector has an operating distance, wherein the focal plane of each eyepiece needs to be a set distance from the CC lens.

If your eyepieces focus at different places in the focuser travel, they will also be at different distances from the CC lens.

As I understand, the top of the GSO coma corrector is not long enough to place the CC's focal plane far enough away from the CC lens, hence the spacer.

Now,  no spacer is necessary if the barrels of the eyepieces are long enough you can pull them out of the CC to the correct point, but that is less likely.

 

What is typically done is to find a spacer that puts the opening of the CC at the correct working distance away from the lens.  That information is online many places.

Translucent scotch tape is placed in an X pattern over the hole sans eyepiece.  The scope is pointed at the Moon and the moon is focused on the tape by moving the focuser.

The focuser is then locked in place, the spacer is removed from the CC, and every eyepiece is inserted until it is in focus and the distance above the CC the shoulder of each eyepiece is is recorded.

If all eyepieces focus when pulled out of the CC by over a certain minimum amount, say, 14mm,  that spacer's length can be inserted into the CC between lens and upper.

Done right, your in-most focusing eyepiece will be perfectly in focus at that point, when simply dropped into the CC.

All other eyepieces should have parfocalizing rings added to them so that when they are dropped in they too are in focus.  Essentially, you have parfocalized all your eyepieces.

[You can do this in advance by starting with your in-most focusing eyepiece]

 

When starting out for the night, any eyepiece, then, can be inserted in the CC, the ensemble put in the scope, and the scope focused, knowing that so doing puts the CC lens in the exactly right place in the 

light cone of the primary mirror to correct coma.  Every other eyepiece inserted will encounter the CC in its optimized position and will be in focus when dropped in (or very close).

 

You only have to do this once.  Any new eyepiece, just insert the new eyepiece and pull it out until it is in focus and that will be the optimum position for that eyepiece.

Parfocalizing rings are a nicety.  You can, of course, merely pull the eyepiece out of the CC until it is in focus and simply tighten it in place.

 

After this is done, you will still need a mm or two of focuser travel for the very best fine focus, but that's all.  Moving the CC back and forth more than that results in poorer correction.

I suggest you read the long thread I linked to earlier.

 

Complicated?  Not really.  Time consuming?  A bit.  This is one of the reasons why the ES and TeleVue CCs are more expensive--they have helical tops that replace the necessity of parfocalizing rings.

 

 

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I believe there’s some margin of error on the Cc where Performance is largely good. Claimed upto +/- 10mm apparently where it should be satisfactory. 
 

personally I just plonked in most in focus eyepiece and trial and errored it untill the coma correction looked best. Left the focuser there and then as described. You can focus your other eyepieces by just moving them out from there and locking them. (Then ideally add parfocalising rings to set them to that position so next time you can just drop them in.) 

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4 hours ago, Don Pensack said:

Ah, the Omegon re-badged GSO unit.

One of the starting points for use as a visual corrector is to add a 19mm spacer between the upper barrel and the lens housing.

One very easy way to use it is to parfocalize all your eyepieces first to your eyepiece that needs the most in-travel at the focuser.

Here is a long thread on optimizing the GSO coma corrector for visual use:

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/462985-setting-up-the-gso-coma-corrector/

 

Oh and I Have started to read that guide Don, very informative. I will continue with it once the kids are in bed 😀

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1 hour ago, Barry-W-Fenner said:

The cc sounds great fun, hope I Don't regret this purchase 😂

So the 1st thing I Need is the 19mm spacer.

Any suggestions for which rings will suit the Morpheus EP's.

Thank you all

It’s a bit to get your head around at first but once you’ve grasped the concept (which I’m sure I haven’t totally myself!) it makes more sense. 
 

there seems to be some margin though. The spacer recommended was based on it needing to be 75mm. Needing a spacer + another 10mm for the 1.25 adapter. I think in the above thread he found in practice it needed about 78mm in his f5 scope and about 80mm in his f4.5. Then there was a +/- range of about 10mm where it worked pretty well. So it probably doesn’t need to be absolutely perfect to perform in practice.

 

a paracorr for example doesn’t get everything perfect as it adjusts in steps. Still works. 

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6 hours ago, Barry-W-Fenner said:

The cc sounds great fun, hope I Don't regret this purchase 😂

So the 1st thing I Need is the 19mm spacer.

Any suggestions for which rings will suit the Morpheus EP's.

Thank you all

I will agree to disagree with Don on the spacer length again.  I use a 25mm spacer to good effect with my range of eyepieces.  Most focus within 5mm of their shoulder and I get 95%+ of the coma corrected out without messing with the spacing on most of my eyepieces.  As I stated above, my 12mm NT4 is the only one needing parfocalization because it focuses 20mm from its 2" shoulder.  That's just too far off to work well with the GSO CC.  The uncorrected coma is intrusive without parfocalization.

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