Fungus?

[Robindonne]

Today i asked a colleague stargazer to have a look at an advertisement for a used 100ed and some other items.  I remembered he was looking for this scope, so kind of pushed him in the direction of buying this one.  
He bought it at the end of the day. 
At home after some inspection of all that he bought, he saw some dirt/dust or even fungus on the optics.   
 

What could this be?   I think he wanted to start with some small cleaning himself, marked the lens, but is stuck at even removing the optics.    Perhaps probably not the most recommended way, the self-cleaning, but to start it might be an option.  What is the best he can do right now?   
 

The scope is an orion 100ed
 

thx for any advice.  
 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Robindonne

[Adam J]

 I do not recommend that you disassemble the lens cell of a ed doublet you will never get it back together again aligned correctly. 

You can remove the lens cell as a single unit depending on the scop to clean the rear surface though. Fungus between elements is the worse case though as some professional labs that realign optics will not even look at a scope with fungus on it for fear of contamination. 

I think that the cell on the Orion 100ed is the same as the SW 100ds pro so it will be threaded into the tube. Hence rotating the entire lens anti clockwise will allow you to remove it. That will let you clean the rear surface. 

Blow dust and debris off the front and rear surfaces first. Then I recommend you use baader cleaning fluid and pure cotton pads. Don't use too much. You don't want to get it between the elements. 

However, another option is to not clean it as it doesn't look all that bad and instead just expose it to a uvc bulb for a few hours to kill any fungus dead. After that just use it as is. From the pictures performance will most likely no be effected badly from this amount of material. 

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by Adam J

[Robindonne]

Ok thx Adam.   Really help-and hopeful answer.   I mentioned the baader fluid yesterday, he seems to have a same sort of fluid from a dutch shop.   So basically what he should do is:

First try to expose the doublet to that uvc light.

If it won’t disappear then remove the elements, including the housing, and clean the the outsides with the baader fluid.

I gave him the link of this thread to read with us.    
 

thx for the help.  

[DaveL59]

Exposing to UV won't remove anything but will kill the fungus so it won't spread. Sunlight will do the trick if you don't have a UV light but usual precautions re direct sunlight and potential for heat damage/fire apply.

If you want to treat it then Hydrogen Peroxide and Ammonia 50/50 mix should work if its accessible of course. Between the elements will mean risking that you can split and reassemble accurately and as Adam mentions it may not be trivial to achieve a good result.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3864060/

Storage use a desiccant to keep the humidity under control and if possible a suitable fungicidal pellet/sachet if you can source them. A focuser cap that can hold a desiccant might be a good idea so the OTA internals are kept well controlled.

Looking at the pic, has he already removed the lens rings as there looks to be a couple on the desk in the reflection off the lens? Hopefully that hasn't disturbed the alignment of the elements.

edit: Note that once cleaned you may find that the coatings have been eroded by the fungus where it is present, shouldn't affect the image but could bother you in terms of it being visible under inspection and also affect resale later on. Might be better to return it to the seller and look for a better one that doesn't have this issue.

Edited September 8, 2020 by DaveL59

[John]

The objective cell on the ED100 should unscrew from the tube allowing you access to the inner face of the objective lens for cleaning.

Hopefully the fungus has not occurred between the lens elements (it is an air spaced doublet) because that will require the objective to be removed from the cell and split to access those lens faces. I've done a few of those and they can be a fiddly operation. 

I would not do a triplet objective - that is a much more specialist operation.

 

 

[Robindonne]

He’s reading all of your help and advices.  Thx very much

And just removed the two elements as one.  Cleaned the inside.  Some minor spots between the two elements.   I believe he contacted a company in Belgium to have a look at the surface inside.    

Edited September 8, 2020 by Robindonne

[Dippy]

Baader optical wonder solution is practically Isopropyl alcohol. Instead of £12 for a 70mL of it, buy a 1000 mL of Isopropyl alcohol for £22 (before pandemic it was only £5). They have also smaller bottles which will be cheaper of course. The Baader solution and Isopropyl alcohol don’t remove the toughest of fungi on optics, only a few of the less deep set ones can be treated with them. 

[Robindonne]

1 hour ago, Dippy said:

Baader optical wonder solution is practically Isopropyl alcohol. Instead of £12 for a 70mL of it, buy a 1000 mL of Isopropyl alcohol for £22 (before pandemic it was only £5). They have also smaller bottles which will be cheaper of course. The Baader solution and Isopropyl alcohol don’t remove the toughest of fungi on optics, only a few of the less deep set ones can be treated with them. 

No you’re right.  But i see these rebranded fluids all the time. The pur foam cleaner or nail polish cleaner etc can be bought in bulk bottles for less then a tenth of the price.  The aluminum from a telescope tube also...   Its a bit the comfort of a proven fluid in a workable flacon etc.   
 

I have to admit that when this Belgium send me the pictures, the first thing i did was open my own telescope cases and caps. 
i do leave them open the rest of the night after some hours of use.  But it was a sad image he send me and kind of worrying. 
 

Most of his disappointment vanished in the darkness last night.   The view was nice and sharp.  I think the pricetag of an inside cleaning will let him decide to live with some imperfections or not. 
 

Those red and black desiccant caps from Flo are suddenly not so nonsense at all.   Just don’t want to cut holes in the case-foam😑

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by Robindonne

[John]

They are very good scopes. It is probably worth a reasonable additional investment to get rid of the fungus between the lens elements as well.

 

 

[Adam J]

5 hours ago, Dippy said:

Baader optical wonder solution is practically Isopropyl alcohol. Instead of £12 for a 70mL of it, buy a 1000 mL of Isopropyl alcohol for £22 (before pandemic it was only £5). They have also smaller bottles which will be cheaper of course. The Baader solution and Isopropyl alcohol don’t remove the toughest of fungi on optics, only a few of the less deep set ones can be treated with them. 

Yes and then have a liter of fluids laying about that's more conbustable than petrol. At least it's from a known brand and of known purity and includes a spray. I clean lots of optics and I have still only used half that 70ml after 5 years. Baader is not quite pure isopropyl either, if pure it's too volatile and drys far to fast before it break anything down. 

Edited September 9, 2020 by Adam J

[Louis D]

18 hours ago, Dippy said:

Baader optical wonder solution is practically Isopropyl alcohol. Instead of £12 for a 70mL of it, buy a 1000 mL of Isopropyl alcohol for £22 (before pandemic it was only £5). They have also smaller bottles which will be cheaper of course. The Baader solution and Isopropyl alcohol don’t remove the toughest of fungi on optics, only a few of the less deep set ones can be treated with them. 

According to Baader Wonder Fluid's MSDS, it's 25% Ethanol and 35% Propan-1-ol.  The latter is an isomer of propan-2-ol (isopropyl alcohol), so not quite the same thing as pure isopropyl alcohol.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Louis D

[Timebandit]

18 hours ago, Dippy said:

Baader optical wonder solution is practically Isopropyl alcohol. Instead of £12 for a 70mL of it, buy a 1000 mL of Isopropyl alcohol for £22 (before pandemic it was only £5). They have also smaller bottles which will be cheaper of course. The Baader solution and Isopropyl alcohol don’t remove the toughest of fungi on optics, only a few of the less deep set ones can be treated with them. 

 

17 hours ago, Robindonne said:

No you’re right.  But i see these rebranded fluids all the time. The pur foam cleaner or nail polish cleaner etc can be bought in bulk bottles for less then a tenth of the price.  The aluminum from a telescope tube also...   Its a bit the comfort of a proven fluid in a workable flacon etc.   
 

 

 

 

Sorry but disagree with this. The items that may be similar in make up/chemicals. Baader fluid is made specifically for cleaning lens. There is no way that to save a few £ use a "possible " similar chemical mix to clean my lens. To me this is false economy, by encouraging this then someone me strip the lens coating or scratch ect lens. Baader fluid is designed for the lens. Would you stick some lorry diesel oil in  your high performance car because its "Oil"?

 

 

 

[pete_l]

19 hours ago, Dippy said:

The Baader solution and Isopropyl alcohol don’t remove the toughest of fungi on optics, only a few of the less deep set ones can be treated with them. 

Even then it doesn't replace the coatings that were destroyed by the fungus, so it's arguable whether the end result is any better.

[NVDW]

I forgot I had an account here 😋 

Anyway, the 100ED is mine. Yesterday I treated it to a few hours of Sol treatment to tackle the fungus between the lenses. 

It's much better now than when I bought it but should I have it completely cleaned? 

Tonight I'm putting it out for another test. 

The company I contacted has way too much work for their customers so they refuse non-customers.

[Alien 13]

Might be worth giving the telescope tube a dose of sunlight too as it could be harboring some fungal spores. when I put my camera lenses or lens cell out for a sunbathe I put some tinfoil on the other end of the lens so it gets a double dose and reduces the risk of the lens causing a fire.... best to point it away from direct sunlight too.

Alan

[Robindonne]

You could probably get a anti-fungus treatment for €5,- at the local tanning-bed shop?  If youre allowed to bring the tube.  Or is that not the uv-light what is needed to remove fungus?

Edited September 11, 2020 by Robindonne

[NVDW]

Already gave it around 9h of sunlight yesterday but it might kill the fungus and spores but doesn't remove the spots... 

I am worried about the coating being affected to be honest. 

[Adam J]

5 hours ago, NVDW said:

Already gave it around 9h of sunlight yesterday but it might kill the fungus and spores but doesn't remove the spots... 

I am worried about the coating being affected to be honest. 

Unless its a really sunny day i dont think that will be sufficient, fungus does have some tollerance to UV you know. Personally I really would just cook it good with a UVC bulb.

Adam

[jetstream]

5 hours ago, NVDW said:

Already gave it around 9h of sunlight yesterday but it might kill the fungus and spores but doesn't remove the spots... 

I am worried about the coating being affected to be honest. 

Did you try spit gently rubbed on the lens spots?

[jetstream]

"Stubborn Spots

On this lens, the basic procedure, with the gentlest intervention, cleaned the lens perfectly. If you have remaining spots one method you can use (recommended by Roland) is to rub the spot gently with a dab of saliva on a clean fingertip. This may sound dubious, but the enzymes in saliva help to break down organic residues and your skin is a very soft cleanser (if it’s clean). You should then leave it a minute or two for the enzymes to act before cleaning and buffing."

http://www.scopeviews.co.uk/HowToCleanLens.htm

[NVDW]

The remaining spots are between the lenses... Something I am not comfortable doing since I've never done that. 

And the 9h uv treatment was on a cloudless, sunny day but I ordered a lamp from good ol' aliexpress

Edited September 12, 2020 by NVDW

[DaveL59]

if it were me I'd prefer to get it stripped and cleaned. Even tho it may not affect the image it'd bother me and any moisture getting between the elements would collect where the remnants are. Not sure if that'd increase the potential for further effects such as coating damage or regrowth coalescing there but I'd not want to chance it. Problem seems to be finding an optical specialist who would carry out the work for you. While I've worked on a few of my binos and scopes I'm not so sure I'd chance attempting it either, I've not had to do anything with my TAL100RS main objectives and would likely seek a specialist if they needed this level of fettling.

Do be aware tho that some coating damage may have already taken place so even once cleaned there will be signs of where the growth areas were but they shouldn't affect the view. I would give the lens a Sol treatment over several days just to be sure and store with lots of desiccant when put away.

Edited September 12, 2020 by DaveL59

[NVDW]

I totally agree but finding a company who wants to do it.... This afternoon, I'm going to email a company in Germany to check if they can and want to do it. 

Yesterday, under bad seeing, I took it out to watch Jupiter, Saturn, M13,M27,M57, M92, Albireo and could even split Epsilon Lyra. It seems a good scope so I want to conserve it. Got some pretty crisp views out of it

[Timebandit]

 

If you have cleaned the lens , and UV treatment. Then the fungus may have already slightly etched the coating of the lens in any case. If it was me I would carry on with the UV for a while. And see if the spots get any worse or not over the next weeks/months. If the lens stays in the same condition as now, and you have stopped any further damage . The cost of getting a professional company to strip/ect may be quite expensive, and damage from the existing fungus may have already left its etched mark on the lens?

 

 

 

[NVDW]

Well I emailed the company so fingers crossed. Looking at the price I paid for the lot, I can spare some money to have it restored. 

Tomorrow day 3 of the treatment. 

I think I'd always be annoyed by that stuff between the lenses. A bit of OCD...

Thanks for the advice so far though