goto vs. manual

[Paul63]

Hi

Which mount would be ok for a SW 130p don't mind manual but would prefer a goto budget will be around £400 and soon maybe upgrade to a  Skywatcher explorer 200p

many thanks

[johninderby]

When you say manual do ypu mean an Alt-Az or EQ mount?

The Skytee II would handle a 200p OTA although much heavier duty than you would need for a 130p.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/alt-azimuth/skywatcher-skytee-2-alt-azimuth-mount.html

Edited June 14, 2020 by johninderby

[jambouk]

If you want GOTO and are going to be putting a 200 on it, I would say an NEQ6; others do use an HEQ5 but if you can afford it, I would go for the 6.

[banjaxed]

If you are a beginner then I would recommend that you get a manual mount and learn how to find your objects which IMO gives a lot of satisfaction. Only when you are a bit more experienced would I move to a GoTo Mount. I found that you can spend more time setting up GoTo mounts than you do viewing. They can be great but they can also be a nightmare, look at all the questions on here about the problems people experience.

[Freddie]

For visual or imaging? Will make a big difference to the mount that would be appropriate.

[Paul63]

Hi

thanks for the reply’s for the goto mount for the SW130 I have being looking at

Sky watcher AZ gti

and for the manual

sky watcher AZ5 deluxe

and of course a good tripod

many thanks

[Timdog]

I’m looking at azgti for same scope but also the skywatcher star discovery WiFi. Same price but bit sturdier, with stainless steel tripod too.

As a manual I have an Explore Scientific twilight 1 which is very sturdy

[Dr Strange]

The AZ-GTi will allow you to do both GOTO and star hopping. You can align the scope/mount via the GOTO system then release the clutches and star hop. When you are ready to go back to GOTO simply tighten the clutches again. It has built-in encoders to track position while you manually move the mount. 

As to GOTO vs. star hopping aka manually hunting for objects... You will find there are two sorts in the hobby. Those that like GOTO and those that like to star hop. They will range from: "It is OK to use GOTO or star hop" to "HOW DARE YOU SUGEST GOTO! IF YOU USE GOTO YOU AREN'T AN ASTRONOMER!"  and "STAR HOP!?! WE HAVE INDOOR PLUMBING AND COOK OUR FOOD WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO DO SOMETHING SO ARCHAIC!?!"

My advice is choose what works for you and your seeing conditions. In heavy light pollution star hopping can be challenging. It can still be done but not as easily for a novice which can lead to some frustration. Also some enjoy the hunt (star hopping) as much as seeing an object. Others just want to look at an object. Deciding what works for you and interests you is the first step in the decision tree.

 

[Louis D]

And then there's push-to with DSCs on a manual mount.  Sometimes, I'll fire up the DSCs on my Dob when I'm having a difficult time locating a challenging object.  Since I don't generally look for challenge objects, a purely manual mount works well enough 98% of the time.

Full GOTO is handy if you're sharing the view, but so is plain old equatorial tracking.

Most full GOTO mounts are nowhere near as smooth and easily controlled in manual mode as an equally priced manual mount.  Of course, there are the high end mounts that start with a fine manual mount and then add DSCs and motors to achieve full GOTO allowing you to have the best of all worlds depending on your mood on a given night.

[jonathan]

One point I would add to this debate is setup time - with a full manual mount (with or without motorised tracking) you can be out and observing as quickly as it takes you to take the stuff outside and plug it all in, for visual you only need rough polar alignment so once you know roughly which direction the pole star or magnetic North is, just point the N leg of the EQ tripod towards it and that's your alignment done.  With a GOTO you still have to do this (if it's EQ, possibly with some AZ setups too) and then go through a manual or guided star alignment process which may or may not succeed, adding time and possibly frustration while you're out there freezing your codlings off.

I tried accurate polar alignment a couple of times (mostly only necessary if you want to do astrophotography or use the setting circles to find objects), I found it to be a very trying experience having to crouch / kneel down to peek through the polar scope and then try to line things up precisely, my main difficulty was in seeing the star pattern as I don't have much luck with stereo vision if there's anything closer than the thing I'm trying to look it, it throws my depth and focus right off.

For the 130 you would probably be fine with an EQ3 Pro mount, but for 200P I agree that you'd need EQ5 Pro minimum for steady views (about £170 over your stated budget, but you'd be *AT* the limit of the EQ5 Pro mount so you'd experience some wobble, the HEQ5 Pro would be a better option), NEQ6 Pro with GOTO is close to £1k so more than double your budget.  When it comes to mounts bigger is better, and that includes the tripod legs, however the NEQ6 Pro is a very heavy piece of equipment and it might just dissuade you from getting out if the weight could be a problem.

Edited June 16, 2020 by jonathan
Additional comment

[Jiggy 67]

1 hour ago, jonathan said:

One point I would add to this debate is setup time - with a full manual mount (with or without motorised tracking) you can be out and observing as quickly as it takes you to take the stuff outside and plug it all in, for visual you only need rough polar alignment so once you know roughly which direction the pole star or magnetic North is, just point the N leg of the EQ tripod towards it and that's your alignment done.  With a GOTO you still have to do this (if it's EQ, possibly with some AZ setups too) and then go through a manual or guided star alignment process which may or may not succeed, adding time and possibly frustration while you're out there freezing your codlings off.

 

As a GoTo fan, I would agree. However there is a solution......leave the mount and even the scope outside and setup (as long as security allows) with a good cover over it. Mine was out all winter. One accurate polar alignment at the beginning and possibly two or three rechecks over the following months. Synscan allows you to start from saved position so only one accurate star alignment required at the beginning and a couple of rechecks in the following months. For an average session you can be on your DSO within 15 minutes, very little setup time and no carrying equipment in and out of the house. Make sure you invest in a Telegizmos cover though

[Dr Strange]

13 hours ago, Louis D said:

And then there's push-to with DSCs on a manual mount.  Sometimes, I'll fire up the DSCs on my Dob when I'm having a difficult time locating a challenging object.  Since I don't generally look for challenge objects, a purely manual mount works well enough 98% of the time.

Full GOTO is handy if you're sharing the view, but so is plain old equatorial tracking.

Most full GOTO mounts are nowhere near as smooth and easily controlled in manual mode as an equally priced manual mount.  Of course, there are the high end mounts that start with a fine manual mount and then add DSCs and motors to achieve full GOTO allowing you to have the best of all worlds depending on your mood on a given night.

Louis - I am curious and confused by what you are saying so hopefully you can clarify.

Over here in the US a good DSC/encoder package plus a good manual mount is much more expensive than a GOTO mount except for the really high end mounts used for astro photography. What DSC/encoder/mount package are you using? Is it still available today?

In addition I don't understand what you are saying about how GOTO mounts are not as smooth or easily controlled. I don't look in the eyepiece as the mount is moving to a new object so smoothness there doesn't make sense. When I have (just to see what was going on and in the field as it moved) the motions are smooth. And the tracking is not noticeable at all it is also very smooth. And that is not with a high end mount. That is with a Celestron or Skywatcher mount. Please help me understand what you mean by things are not smooth?

And the AZ-GTi is £215, the AZ-EQ5 is £995, and the AZ-EQ6 is £1,399. That puts the AZ-EQ6 on par with a good manual mount (not one that is rubbish) with equal capacity as the AZ-EQ6 and DSC plus encoders (a good one like the Nexus DSC and encoder package not some cheap limited to only 4,000 objects DSC)  so I don't understand how there is any savings with a manual setup over a setup that allows you to choose to be manual or use GOTO which all three Skywatcher mounts let you do. Would you please expand on your statements so I can understand?

[Dr Strange]

Oh and I should mention  I use both manual and GOTO mounts regularly. I also star hop, use DSC's, and GOTO.

I have tried the less expensive options in terms of manual mounts like the Vixen, Explore Scientific (which really is just a Vixen in the case of the Twilight I but the Twilight II is pretty nice and robust at a good price point), the Stellarvue M2, as well as the AYO Swiss and DiscMounts mounts. I find the AYO and DiscMounts perform significantly better but at a cost. I have also owned and used the Sky Commander, Argo Navis and currently use the Nexus DSC plus the Astro Devices encoder kit. You do get what you pay for. The Sky Commander only had 4,000 objects in it and very low resolution encoders. The Argo Navis did better with 29,000 objects and a bit higher resolution encoders but the Nexus with its GPS, massive number of catalogs, keypad for easy input of objects instead of the spinning wheel on the Argo, and other features as well as the 311k encoders is hands down the best commercially available DSC on the market today that I have found at a very reasonable price for what you get.

I also have used and owned the Celestron AVX, CGEM, CGX, a couple of Meade mounts including the disaster that was the LX-80 but the LX-90 8" SCT was a good performer but super heavy, and the Skywatcher AZ-EQ6. I have also used the Losmandy G11 and Paramount MyT. I currently own the DiscMounts DM6, AZ-GTi as well as an AP 1100 and a AP Mach2. I found that the Celestron mounts performed really well for their price point and the Skywatcher AZ-EQ6 was brilliant. It allows for alt/az mode where you can slip the clutches and star hop then reengage them to go back to GOTO, the alignment was dead simple and on par with the time to align as the Nexus DSC. The AZ-GTi is equally brilliant in its performance at its price point. So to me, you can't go wrong with a Skywatcher.
 

I only have the Astro Physics (AP) mounts for astro photography (AP). One in an observatory and the other for field use. I have no other hobbies and as I tell SWMBO it keeps me out of the pubs. I climbed the AP ladder in terms of mount and had I simply saved my money and bought the AP mounts in the first place I would have ended up saving money. The thing you get with a premium mount is better performance and less "fiddle time" when something doesn't work. But to me that was worth the price. I am doing AP as a hobby not a job and I was tired of wasting time on "fiddle time" trying to make things work when there was a problem. The Celestron and Skywatcher mounts do really well for their price point but when something does not work right there is a significant amount of "fiddle time" to fix it compared to a premium mount. 

What can I say? I have a serious astronomy hobby problem.  I am getting help for it though...

 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Dr Strange

[Dr Strange]

6 hours ago, jonathan said:

One point I would add to this debate is setup time - with a full manual mount (with or without motorised tracking) you can be out and observing as quickly as it takes you to take the stuff outside and plug it all in, for visual you only need rough polar alignment so once you know roughly which direction the pole star or magnetic North is, just point the N leg of the EQ tripod towards it and that's your alignment done.  With a GOTO you still have to do this (if it's EQ, possibly with some AZ setups too) and then go through a manual or guided star alignment process which may or may not succeed, adding time and possibly frustration while you're out there freezing your codlings off.

I tried accurate polar alignment a couple of times (mostly only necessary if you want to do astrophotography or use the setting circles to find objects), I found it to be a very trying experience having to crouch / kneel down to peek through the polar scope and then try to line things up precisely, my main difficulty was in seeing the star pattern as I don't have much luck with stereo vision if there's anything closer than the thing I'm trying to look it, it throws my depth and focus right off.

For the 130 you would probably be fine with an EQ3 Pro mount, but for 200P I agree that you'd need EQ5 Pro minimum for steady views (about £170 over your stated budget, but you'd be *AT* the limit of the EQ5 Pro mount so you'd experience some wobble, the HEQ5 Pro would be a better option), NEQ6 Pro with GOTO is close to £1k so more than double your budget.  When it comes to mounts bigger is better, and that includes the tripod legs, however the NEQ6 Pro is a very heavy piece of equipment and it might just dissuade you from getting out if the weight could be a problem.

Somewhat. If you are not using a DSC then you are right the setup time is minimal. Put the scope on, balance it, and then off you go. With a DSC there is still an alignment routine. In my case with the Nexus DSC it is a two star alignment. However with the AZ-GTi, AZ-EQ5, and AZ-EQ6 the setup and alignment time is the same as with a manual mount and DSC. There is a one or two star alignment. So there really isn't any time saved.

There is a good solution to that crouching problem by the way. I have the same problem. I stand 198cm tall and am an ex rugby player so all the accumulated injuries make it difficult to contort myself into the position needed to look through the polar scope. I found a right angle adapter at Telescope Express that makes it stupid simple and painless to look through the polar scope. It is here:

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/language/en/info/p5950_TS-Optics-90--View-with-additional-magnification-for-Skywatcher-polar-finder.html

[Timdog]

It’s great being a newbie. Out of ignorance most “kit” seems good as you don’t know any better. Then you try better and it seems great However what matters is that you enjoy what you have and use. Better is objective and is only better if better for you.  conscious competence learning model explains it well. Personally it’s a new and much enjoyed hobby,(or would be if it wasn’t always cloudy) but that’s it, a hobby and not my main obsession.

 

[Louis D]

2 hours ago, Dr Strange said:

In addition I don't understand what you are saying about how GOTO mounts are not as smooth or easily controlled. I don't look in the eyepiece as the mount is moving to a new object so smoothness there doesn't make sense. When I have (just to see what was going on and in the field as it moved) the motions are smooth. And the tracking is not noticeable at all it is also very smooth. And that is not with a high end mount. That is with a Celestron or Skywatcher mount. Please help me understand what you mean by things are not smooth?

Turn off the GOTO and unplug the power.  Are these GOTO mounts as smooth in manual motion as your DM-6?  What I was attempting to say was if you start with a superb manual mount and then add encoders and motors, it is equally adept in any of the three modes, full manual, DSC-only, or full-GOTO.  By full GOTO, I was thinking of the AZ-GTi mount you like to recommend.  How does it compare in manual usage to a DSV-1 or similar for instance?  Does it have decently variable clutches on both axes with roller bearings to allow smooth manual tracking at high powers?  If it does, I might think about getting one because it would be nice to have GOTO available occasionally without having to swap mounts entirely.

[Dr Strange]

25 minutes ago, Louis D said:

Turn off the GOTO and unplug the power.  Are these GOTO mounts as smooth in manual motion as your DM-6?  What I was attempting to say was if you start with a superb manual mount and then add encoders and motors, it is equally adept in any of the three modes, full manual, DSC-only, or full-GOTO.  By full GOTO, I was thinking of the AZ-GTi mount you like to recommend.  How does it compare in manual usage to a DSV-1 or similar for instance?  Does it have decently variable clutches on both axes with roller bearings to allow smooth manual tracking at high powers?  If it does, I might think about getting one because it would be nice to have GOTO available occasionally without having to swap mounts entirely.

Ah! That makes sense! Thank you.

As to the AZ-GTi, it is a £215 mount. While the DSV-1 is about the same price the AZ-GTi is no where near the DSV-1 in terms of performance as a manual mount. It is designed with electronics and GOTO so it is not machined the same way as the DSV-1. However its value add is the fact that it can be used for star hopping or GOTO. And in the star hopping mode it is smooth enough and the clutches are easy enough to use that it isn't a hindrance or a burden. The key is in the balance of the scope. It has to be very well balanced. Otherwise it is all over the place like a wet noodle. There isn't really a way that I am aware of to put any tension on the clutches. At least how I use it. I suppose you can tighten them a bit and have better stability but I haven't done so. Another key factor is the weight of the scope and more importantly the moment arm. You can go past the recommended weight rating if the scope's moment arm isn't big. But even under the weight rating if the scope has a big moment arm you will not be pleased. The largest moment arm I have seen used with it is the Takahashi FC-100DF. It seems to do well with this scope. However over that or say a 150mm short tube Mak or SCT and it doesn't like it very much.

My personal preference is my DM6 on nights when I don't have a lot of time to deal with things and view. Say under an hour. It is a fast setup, quick alignment, and you are off to the races. I no longer have my old Skywatcher or Celestron mounts because I had to sell a great deal of stuff to afford the AP mounts I have. Otherwise the AZ-EQ6 in alt/az mode would have been an equal choice as the DM6. Sadly I am in Bortle 8/9 skies so star hopping isn't really an option for me unless I have a lot of time. Also I need to pump up the aperture to "see" things. I need to use a 120mm refractor or 203mm reflector to "see" stuff in the light pollution I have at home.

I still use the AZ-GTi when I am at some event away from home but not at a dark sky but I am limited to a 92mm refractor because I don't have a FC-100. It works but it is limited due to the aperture and light pollution. Its use case is when I am at some sports practice for my kid and sitting in a parking lot. I can either stare at my phone/tablet screen or I can observe. I would rather observe. And prior to the current mess I was in a parking lot somewhere at least 4 nights a week since my kid is a multi sport athlete and is at an age where dad is embarrassing so I have been banished to the parking lot. I also use it as my travel setup. It plus the tripod and the 92mm fit nicely in my luggage. My clothes wrap the scope and mount nicely though the US TSA does want me to open my bag 8 times out of 10 since it is an odd thing to see on the luggage X-Ray. 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Dr Strange

[Dr Strange]

1 hour ago, Timdog said:

It’s great being a newbie. Out of ignorance most “kit” seems good as you don’t know any better. Then you try better and it seems great However what matters is that you enjoy what you have and use. Better is objective and is only better if better for you.  conscious competence learning model explains it well. Personally it’s a new and much enjoyed hobby,(or would be if it wasn’t always cloudy) but that’s it, a hobby and not my main obsession.

 

Spot on mate! I churned through a lot of kit before finding what is right for me. Of course hindsight being 20/20 if I knew then what I know now I would have just bought what I have.  However learning was a fun part of the journey and in the end it is only money. I have to spend it on something so why not my only hobby?

However it is a bit of an obsession for me too. You are fortunate not to face that. Luckily I am at the end of my equipment journey. I don't see the need for anything other than what I have. There isn't going to be some magical mystical quantum leap in technology or performance that I absolutely have to have. Maybe a new small mount to replace the AZ-GTi once it becomes obsolete and I need to replace it or a newer and much better performing camera (this is highly unlikely since I don't need anything beyond what I have). But from a telescope or eyepiece perspective or barring a unrecoverable failure in equipment, no. I am done.

I do face getting older and likely downsizing but I have bought equipment that will allow me to fail gracefully instead of catastrophically. I can go down to a 92mm scope on the AZ-GTi at the bottom end of the slope. The big stuff will get sold off as it becomes to difficult to use. The loss I take on it I consider rental fees on it while I enjoyed it.  And I want to buy everything now while I am working instead of when I am retired and have much less money to spend.

Bottom line, try out things, find what you enjoy using, and go with it. There will always be gear for the gear heads but unless you are a hardcore gear head don't bother. Spend time under the stars looking at them instead. Any equipment that lets you do that and brings you enjoyment is the right equipment for you.

[Timdog]

I read this as I have a fancy for an  azgti, yes I want to find my own way round. I was brought up pre satnav! But would like to mix that with sitting out on a suitable night and trying the tour option. Let it take me on a tour of what’s visible at the time. I don’t have bad light pollution here and have some good dark places with 360 degree views.  Oh I can see how this becomes an obsession.  Honestly first time I came across m29 was pure luck while panning across the sky. Big smile moment. Money is for spending not counting

[Louis D]

1 hour ago, Dr Strange said:

Sadly I am in Bortle 8/9 skies so star hopping isn't really an option for me unless I have a lot of time.

That is pretty brutal.  I'm around Bortle 5/6 depending on the direction from my backyard.  It used to be much better before tens of thousands of people, two toll roads, and lots of strips malls opened up nearby.

[uhb1966]

You could also get a motorized mount like the EQ5 or EQ6 without goto and get the gotobox second hand from somebody like me who has gone all-out on computerized setup for AP, but i do computing for a living so no too big move for me

[uhb1966]

one more note, if you think about going for the 200mm aperture scope i'd go for an EQ6 mount. Best, U.

[Dr Strange]

On 16/06/2020 at 12:19, Louis D said:

That is pretty brutal.  I'm around Bortle 5/6 depending on the direction from my backyard.  It used to be much better before tens of thousands of people, two toll roads, and lots of strips malls opened up nearby.

Cheers. Yes, it is. But it is what it is. Work keeps me where I am. I actually just sold off some equipment and saved up for a Nigh Vision Device (NVD) from Tele Vue. It came with a box of clouds too. THANK YOU Tele Vue!  I haven't had a chance to use it yet.

I also have an ASI 553 for EAA. I want to see if I can get an Oculus VR goggles to work with my imaging laptop. It won't be 3D but it will be total immersion  if I maximize the screen. I plan to sit back, play some relaxing music, and just drift as objects go through a predetermined list. My idea is to setup a script that moves the mount/camera/scope to objects on a timer or with a key press then starts the image capture that way I am not removing the goggles. Hopefully those two things will mitigate the whole Bortle 8/9 situation a bit. 

I realize this is pretty high speed low drag but I have no other hobbies and I tell SWMBO that it keeps me out of the pubs so that is where my hard earned savings from sack lunches and not having other hobbies goes. Fortunately I have churned through enough gear that I know what I want and have it. No big purchases for me going forward unless something breaks or there is a real game changer in terms of equipment. And it will have to be a big change to warrant it. That is on the mount or equipment side. On the scope side and the EP side I am done. Which is where the big money really goes save for an imaging mount which I have already as well as a camera. 

Edited June 22, 2020 by Dr Strange

[HollyHound]

On 14/06/2020 at 13:21, Paul63 said:

Hi

thanks for the reply’s for the goto mount for the SW130 I have being looking at

Sky watcher AZ gti

and for the manual

sky watcher AZ5 deluxe

and of course a good tripod

many thanks

If you go for either (or both) of these, then make sure to get the heavy weight tripod:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/tripods/sky-watcher-38-stainless-steel-tripod.html

Steer clear of the basic tripod:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/tripods/sky-watcher-tripod-for-star-adventurer-mini.html

unless it’s a very light load. It was just usable with my Mak102 (my first scope... they came together as a package) but that was about it!

I have the AZ5 on the steel tripod and it’s very steady for all my scopes, although admittedly I don’t have a reflector yet.

Edited June 22, 2020 by HollyHound

[steveex2003]

If you really want fuss-free goto with almost zero set-up then Starsense maybe worth consideration, particularly if you can leave the camera attached. Turn it on, make a cup of coffee, and you're ready to roll.