Are analogue cameras obsolete?

[R26 oldtimer]

With the advent of cmos and live stacking software, are analogue cameras relics of a different era? I think not. Even with their miserable resolution they are still the most sensitive and offer near live experience opposed to 5-10min stacks of 15-30sec subs. And with advantages like long cable transmission and simplicity of setting up, I still enjoy using mine, even though I got myself a digital one.

As someone wrote " It maybe my worst camera, but it is my best deep sky eyepiece". And they are as cheep as chips these days!

[vlaiv]

I must confess that I don't really know distinction between analogue camera and a digital one, sensor wise.

I do understand that analogue cameras transmit their signal in analogue form, while digital cameras transfer their signal in digital form (both use voltage levels but with different "protocol"), but is there any real difference in sensor being used?

If not, then we can't really say that there is a distinction between the two in astronomy usage, since it's only different transport protocol being used - much like difference between USB and Firewire or maybe Ethernet used to gather signal from camera for further processing.

[Ouroboros]

I thought we were talking film. ?

[R26 oldtimer]

Actually, analogue cameras are low light  cctv cameras, adapted to astronomy. These are the samsung sbc's, the sony effio-p and effio-a type cameras ( such as the revolution imager) and the famous Ln300. Most of these are based on the very sensitive sony icx810/811 and icx672/673 sensors, but they come bundled with a dsp. The dsp (digital signal processor) such as the sony effio dsps, allows to change the gain, exposure and other parameters as well as provides the ability to average up to 6 frames, and outputs an analogue signal.

So it's not only about the type of signal transmission, it's more about having a mini processor (with rather limited abilities) built-in, or having to use a p.c.

There have also been more sophisticated analogue cameras such as the mallincams, but that's when I turned to digital with a Lodestar x2c, so can't comment on them.

[JamesF]

I think there's a potential benefit from cameras that do some processing internally and produce a video output signal for outreach events where keeping the setup as simple as possible may be an advantage.  My personal preference is for cameras with a frame buffer output however.

James

[Astrobits]

For doing occultations, IOTA ( International Occultation Timing Association) require analogue cameras coupled to a VTI ( Video Time Inserter) and recorder.

Nigel

[NGC 1502]

On 29/03/2019 at 10:36, Ouroboros said:

I thought we were talking film. ?

So did I.  I’ve heard a rumour that digital photography may be coming. But there’s no way that will be successful.......?

My non-metered Asahi Pentax and Weston lightmeter are going strong........?

Ed.

[Marvin Jenkins]

I love the quote “ the famous LN 300” it’s a bit like being around kids as they talk about Cardi B and I have no idea.

[JamesF]

7 minutes ago, Marvin Jenkins said:

I love the quote “ the famous LN 300” it’s a bit like being around kids as they talk about Cardi B and I have no idea.

I thought Cardi B was what I wore when Cardi A was in the wash.

James

[Marvin Jenkins]

I normally go to ‘B’ when I have spilt wine down the front of mine.

[Vondragonnoggin]

Definitely not obsolete. Some even don’t need to have pictures at all so using a screen grabber is not necessary and are ok with the lesser resolution to get that closer to Live view the cameras give. Traditional video astronomy is also convenient to not need a laptop with its use. My very first attraction to EEVA type viewing was after reading an article about using Video goggles with a Mallincam right at the scope. No CRT or LCD monitor needed. Just those video glasses that emulate viewing a 50” screen 10 feet in front of you.

 

I like the idea of a 7” LCD side mounted close to the focuser that can twist to 90° for viewing at same angles an eyepiece is in a diagonal. 

I am patiently waiting for CMOS cameras to bring noise down at higher ISO to an acceptable level to get a live view with a dslr that has a flip out  monitor that twists to 90° - on a manual mount. I think we will see it within the next 5 years or so.

 

I am a Night Vision EEVA user and would like a CMOS dslr sensitive enough for live view with broad enough response to use visual narrowband filters like UHC, OIII, Hb and also to see the reflection nebulae like Merope and Witchhead which night vision can’t pickup yet. I’ve still never seen the Witchhead. I can pick up the Horsehead in my 72mm scope but not reflection nebulae heavy in carbon monoxide/carbon dioxide/oxygen or any gas with spectrum wavelengths below about 550nm.

I’m still stubbornly refusing to use tracking mounts. It’s what decided the debate on night vision vs camera EEVA 6 years ago for me.

 Back then Video Astronomy was still very popular. I would have never known about Night Vision astronomy without first seeing video astronomy then doing further research.

[Marvin Jenkins]

I’m a bit lost. Maybe I have missed something but I thought this thread was about whether cameras that use 35mm roll film are now completely out of use. Perhaps I have got the wrong end of the initial question.

Edited May 26, 2019 by Marvin Jenkins
Looking back I was wrong. I made an incorrect assumption

[JamesF]

5 minutes ago, Marvin Jenkins said:

I’m a bit lost. Maybe I have missed something but I thought this thread was about whether cameras that use 35mm roll film are now completely out of use. Perhaps I have got the wrong end of the initial question.

My understanding of an analogue camera in this context would be one that produces an analogue video signal as its output rather than transferring the data digitally over USB, ethernet or similar.

James

[Vondragonnoggin]

20 minutes ago, Marvin Jenkins said:

I’m a bit lost. Maybe I have missed something but I thought this thread was about whether cameras that use 35mm roll film are now completely out of use. Perhaps I have got the wrong end of the initial question.

From the original post:

”Even with their miserable resolution they are still the most sensitive and offer near live experience opposed to 5-10min stacks of 15-30sec subs. And with advantages like long cable transmission and simplicity of setting up, I still enjoy using mine, even though I got myself a digital one.”

 

I think this describes video astronomy cameras since 35mm film would be nowhere near live viewing.

[Phil Fargaze]

On 24/04/2019 at 10:36, Astrobits said:

For doing occultations, IOTA ( International Occultation Timing Association) require analogue cameras coupled to a VTI ( Video Time Inserter) and recorder.

Nigel

The camera I use for my occultation observations is a Watec 910HX/RC  (mono) which provides an analogue output.  However I digitize the signal via a USB video adaptor to record onto laptop. Simple to use, great for live viewing and still good for obtaining useful scientific data. 

[tooth_dr]

30 minutes ago, Phil Fargaze said:

The camera I use for my occultation observations is a Watec 910HX/RC  (mono) which provides an analogue output.  However I digitize the signal via a USB video adaptor to record onto laptop. Simple to use, great for live viewing and still good for obtaining useful scientific data. 

Those are pretty stunning analogue cameras! I’m using 902H2 and still useful for meteor detection. I’m hoping to get a 910 someday. 

[Phil Fargaze]

I updated from a 120N+ to the 910 and the increase in sensitivity was pronounced. I was previously limited to mag 12 stars for occultation work but with the 910 in good conditions I can work with mag 14 stars now. 

[tooth_dr]

1 hour ago, Phil Fargaze said:

I updated from a 120N+ to the 910 and the increase in sensitivity was pronounced. I was previously limited to mag 12 stars for occultation work but with the 910 in good conditions I can work with mag 14 stars now. 

I’m not that familiar with occultation imaging but I’ve heard a bit about it, that’s a big improvement.

Im getting meteors down to +4/4.5 magnitude with my 902/8mm F0.8 lens, and the 910 gets you down to two magnitudes fainter again!

[ollypenrice]

On 24/04/2019 at 21:38, JamesF said:

I thought Cardi B was what I wore when Cardi A was in the wash.

James

You did not ride a Ducati Desmo in a cardigan...?

lly

[JamesF]

Where else do you put your pipe when your visor is lowered?

James

[fwm891]

I have an old Mintron low light video cam that makes a super live finder - fitted with an old f2.8 135mm (Tamron?) lens - lots of fuzzies!

[R26 oldtimer]

As I said, I never got to use mine with a frame grabber, because I moved to a lodestar x2c, so I never had a chance to find out if I could use my effio-a/ icx810 camera for guiding. If phd could recognise it, then it would be an excellent guiding camera because of the sensor's great sensitivity and extremely low price, (effio-a/icx810 board camera + frame grabber cost less than 45€ or 40£).

[shirva]

Showing my age on this post lol.

Samsung scb2000 was the main CCTV camera used back in 2011,, it was cheap to buy and had good intregration , the UK version was the better model, modded and done a lot of testing of this camera,you had to split the case and remove lens board and take out the factory fitted ir lens to let through the right light spectrum,, I fitted a 40 x 40mm fan behind the lens board to cool it, I fitted a 40 x 40mm fan on top of the top casing and 18mm fan on each side,, and as I said done a lot of testing with a fluke meter measuring the internal casing temp and running sharpcap,, in cooled it used to drop a lot of frames,, cooling on ,, never dropped a frame.

Found that if you sucked the hot air out of the casing ,,this had best results,, camera temp was at ambient,, non cooled it was 12 to 15 degree warmer inside the casing.

The Samsung was a good work horse and got better when we found that you could use a UTC,, controller ( up the coaxial).. I had my camera's at first rigged up to a usb frame grabber, then to a four channel DVR and split the signal to  the monitor , to a usb grabber and into my computer,, four cameras running all at once and recording to 1.5 TB hard drive in the DVR..

The next camera that was good was the Phil dyer camera,, or pd1 we called it,, it was a huviron CCTV camera and done double the intregration of the Sammy,, I believe if I can remember correctly ,, it had the same internals as the ln300,, the ln300 was a bit of a hit or miss camera,, some never lasted long. Few mods were attempted,. making the casing shorter,fan mod ect,, faded away as could not get parts for them.

The watec 902h,, 1/2" sensor,, mono,,, now that is a low light camera ,, closest camera you could get to night vision back in the day,, 

I still have 2 scb200 box cameras

1 scb2000 dome camera

1 Phil dyer pd1 camera

2 watec 902h cameras

Had a lot less hassle setting these up than I had setting up dslrs, and my zwo Asian 178mc ,, stuck a flip mirror on the Sammy with a 6mm eyepiece,, focus and fliip mirror to camera,, final adjustments and a few settings,, good to go.