Newbie looking for grab and go!

[flower_matt]

Hi everyone,

I am a newbie so please be kind! Actually my main passion is for (flower) photography (shameless plug : Instagram mjdearman_photography) , but I have been a little bitten by the astro bug!

Started out with a trip to the dark sight in Northumberland UK, it was cloudy but even so the lecture sparked an interest, so I bought a Celestron 110 Newt from Ebay for £50. I was really chuffed to observe the moon, Mizor / Alcor and jupiter, but ultimately the poor quality finder scope and mount meant I wasn't using it enough. I take a lot of enjoyment from learning the sky and all I was really getting was frustration.

I am pretty limited on time, so quick setup is key. With this in mind, I bought some celestron 20x80 Bins which i love. Last night I found the Dumbbell nebula (or a very faint smudge), have also observed M13 , the moon, Jupiter and Saturn. I love this "organic" way of observing, but need a bit more.

I definitely want an unguided Alt AZ mount, have learnt my lesson there. Started looking at possible small Fracs like the Altair Lightwave 72mm F6 ED-R Refractor  and the 70 ED Travel Frac, but the more reading I did the more it seems I would benefit from more Aperture (I would like observing to include a bit of everything including DSOs). Portability was initially a priority but im happy to sacrifice for more aperture.

I am ruling out dobs due to the size / storage  / setup space and setup time required. I wouldn't necessarily rule out a newt but its not my pref and not many people seem to use these on Alt AZ mounts. I want an organic observing experience even if it is with a bigger scope.

So, as I want a bit more aperture I am thinking about spending a bit more and going with the Skywatcher 120-ED. There is so much written on this scope and seems the only negative really is the focuser and that its not the best for DSOs (as expected with the smallish Aperture).

Also noting that I don't want to image and live about 10 miles out of central london, so quite a lot of LP.

I think this is a very exciting thing to be starting from scratch, would be very pleased to hear from people as to weather the SW 120 ED is my best bet (budget wise this is the most i want to speand). Also what mount at EP you would recommend.

One question, how much better for DSOs would you expect the SW 120 ED to be than my 80 x 20 bins?

Thanks everyone, looking forward to this journey!

Matt

[JOC]

Hi Matt, well your bins are only giving 20x magnification if I understand the numbers correctly.  I suspect you will be blown away with anything offering  100x + mag. Eyepieces permitting.  That probably gives yoi loads of options.

[flower_matt]

Thanks Brown dwarf, sorry if I was unclear but I was really wondering about the ability to capture light rather than the mag. For example, taking M31 or M13 at the same mag (so very wide EP on the 120 ED) would the scope capture a lot more light? Upon checking the specs it seems the light capture on the scope is around 300 x human, but cant find the equivalent spec for the 80 x 20 bins.

[rockystar]

Your binos have 80mm aperture,  I don't know the exact values, but it will probably be about half the light capture of the 120.

I know you said you don't want a dob,  but your logic is a bit flawed - they are very quick to set up (plonk and go), and they don't take up any more space than a 120 frac + mount. A 150mm dob will give you about another 20-30% light gather over 120mm.

However,  back to the frac,  I wouldn't worry too much about the focuser  if you are just using it visually, it will be fine- you can always upgrade it at a later date. Have a look at something like the skywatcher AZ5 to mount it on.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/alt-azimuth/sky-watcher-az5-deluxe-alt-azimuth-mount.html

[Flower__matt]

Thanks Rocky star,

Re the Dob, they seem to need to cool down, whereas fracs are good to go straight away, also the planets tend to be low in the sky for me and I frequently need the higher perspective (over my garden fence) to see them. I will take another look though, ultimately I need to try one out.

The mount looks like it will work nicely, thanks.

Matt 

[JOC]

I have never owned one, but from what I read I think even Fracs benefit from cooling and their outer glass is still available for condensation.   

In terms of Dobs needing to cool down that partly depends where you keep them.  Mine is in an unheated porch and is therefore often at more or less outdoor temp anyway.  It also partly depends on their format.  I have a flex tube Dob.  It extends with a frame work to make the working OTA.  Smaller Dobs also come in this format and contrary to what some imagine, the mechanism in mine is very solid and it holds collimation (think 'alignment') very well.  They are also smaller and easier to store when collapsed.  Having owned one I would never buy a solid body telescope they are that good.   Obviously the big gap in the centre of the tube is a huge advantage if the scope does need to cool a little.  Before you pick I would certainly look at them, they come in many mirror sizes from small to large.

[Carbon Brush]

Hi Matt.

Welcome to SGL. You will find a wealth of advice on here, so don't jump into buying a scope just yet. Having said that, here is my two pennorth.

A reflector gives you far more light gather for the ££ spent than a refractor. If you want to see faint objects, you need light gather.
A reflector is a simple instrument. If you have bought one that is lacking, it is easy to modify and improve. The question is whether it is worth the effort.
Examples of simple low cost mods to your Celestron newt include upgrading the finderscope and flocking the tube to reduce reflections.

Any refractor you buy will suffer some chromatic aberration (colour fringing). Unless you go for a big spend. Just how much fringing you get depends on the scope and your budget.
As a general rule a long focal length is better for colour fringing, but may be a bit awkward for viewing wide objects.

A further consideration is eyepieces. Sorry to throw this one in. The stock eyepieces supplied with scopes are often just about good enough to get you viewing.
Don't forget that any eyepieces you buy can stay with you if or when you sell on the scope.
Eyepieces that work well with 'fast' scopes tend to cost a bit more. That is a short focal length for a given aperture.  

A dob mounted reflector is generally quick to set up. Don't get obsessed with cooling time - unless it is a really big scope.
A 150 or 200mm mirror should give you really good views with the option of wide field, or planetary by choosing eyepieces.
Light gather is proportional to the square of the main lens/mirror diameter. This means double diameter give you 4x the light gather.

The planets are low in the sky because it is summer. Winter is coming. has that been said before?

Take a look around other posts on here about scope choices. Ask away. There is no such thing as a stupid question - we have all been beginners.

When you have enough time and posts, you will be able to use the for sale section. As a general rule kit on this forum is well looked after and you will get honest assessments from the members who are selling.
my own view is that SGL is the best place to buy, followed by UK Astrobuysell. Ebay coming in with a cautionary note.

Enjoy you time with us.

David.

 

[LukeSkywatcher]

"I have never owned one, but from what I read I think even Fracs benefit from cooling and their outer glass is still available for condensation."   

I have mostly only owned Fracs and while they may benefit from cooling, its something ive never done. You are right though about them fogging/dewing up. This can happen quite quickly.

Cooling a Frac means leaving the observing end open to allow heat to escape. This could be problematic. You could get small insects in the tube or condensation on the interior surface of the objective. Fracs basically need no TLC. Its best to just leave them as they are. 

Im sure @John will disagree.

"One question, how much better for DSOs would you expect the SW 120 ED to be than my 80 x 20 bins?".

I have (20x80 bins) and you simply cant compare the magnification of bins to a scope. They are two very different things. 

Stick a 20mm EP in an 80mm scope and see what happens. You'd imagine the view to be the same. Ive never compared. 

[flower_matt]

On 08/08/2018 at 11:10, JOC said:

I have never owned one, but from what I read I think even Fracs benefit from cooling and their outer glass is still available for condensation.   

In terms of Dobs needing to cool down that partly depends where you keep them.  Mine is in an unheated porch and is therefore often at more or less outdoor temp anyway.  It also partly depends on their format.  I have a flex tube Dob.  It extends with a frame work to make the working OTA.  Smaller Dobs also come in this format and contrary to what some imagine, the mechanism in mine is very solid and it holds collimation (think 'alignment') very well.  They are also smaller and easier to store when collapsed.  Having owned one I would never buy a solid body telescope they are that good.   Obviously the big gap in the centre of the tube is a huge advantage if the scope does need to cool a little.  Before you pick I would certainly look at them, they come in many mirror sizes from small to large.

Thanks Brown Dwarf

[cletrac1922]

Matt

Welcome from land down under

Have both

SW 250mm collapsible dob, and SW ED80 on EQ5 mount

Just viewing, the dob is great, easy to transport, and set up

If AP you also want to do down the track, then the ED80 is way to go 

John

 

 

[flower_matt]

On 08/08/2018 at 13:56, Carbon Brush said:

Hi Matt.

Welcome to SGL. You will find a wealth of advice on here, so don't jump into buying a scope just yet. Having said that, here is my two pennorth.

A reflector gives you far more light gather for the ££ spent than a refractor. If you want to see faint objects, you need light gather.
A reflector is a simple instrument. If you have bought one that is lacking, it is easy to modify and improve. The question is whether it is worth the effort.
Examples of simple low cost mods to your Celestron newt include upgrading the finderscope and flocking the tube to reduce reflections.

Any refractor you buy will suffer some chromatic aberration (colour fringing). Unless you go for a big spend. Just how much fringing you get depends on the scope and your budget.
As a general rule a long focal length is better for colour fringing, but may be a bit awkward for viewing wide objects.

A further consideration is eyepieces. Sorry to throw this one in. The stock eyepieces supplied with scopes are often just about good enough to get you viewing.
Don't forget that any eyepieces you buy can stay with you if or when you sell on the scope.
Eyepieces that work well with 'fast' scopes tend to cost a bit more. That is a short focal length for a given aperture.  

A dob mounted reflector is generally quick to set up. Don't get obsessed with cooling time - unless it is a really big scope.
A 150 or 200mm mirror should give you really good views with the option of wide field, or planetary by choosing eyepieces.
Light gather is proportional to the square of the main lens/mirror diameter. This means double diameter give you 4x the light gather.

The planets are low in the sky because it is summer. Winter is coming. has that been said before?

Take a look around other posts on here about scope choices. Ask away. There is no such thing as a stupid question - we have all been beginners.

When you have enough time and posts, you will be able to use the for sale section. As a general rule kit on this forum is well looked after and you will get honest assessments from the members who are selling.
my own view is that SGL is the best place to buy, followed by UK Astrobuysell. Ebay coming in with a cautionary note.

Enjoy you time with us.

David.

 

Hi David, 

Thanks very much for the warm welcome and advice. 

Although I want to try a dob, i think ill likely go with with 120 ED frac (seems the CA is well controlled on this scope). I'm not going to rush into it and will be observing with my bins probably for the rest of this year.

On the eyepiece front, it seems there is almost more to consider than the scope itself!nI haven't figured this out entirely yet but the Baader Morpheus 17.5 and ES 62 deg LER 32mm are on the shortist so far. Seems the 32mm will give 900/32 = 28 x mag, just a bit longer than the bins so might try use this instead of a finder scope.

Much more reading to be done, very excited about the journey!

Matt

 

[flower_matt]

17 minutes ago, cletrac1922 said:

Matt

Welcome from land down under

Have both

SW 250mm collapsible dob, and SW ED80 on EQ5 mount

Just viewing, the dob is great, easy to transport, and set up

If AP you also want to do down the track, then the ED80 is way to go 

John

 

 

 

 

Thanks John, it's been a good few years since I was in Aus. Drove from Melbourne to Cairns backpacking over 10 years ago now. I think the memory that will always stay with me is the stars when driving around the great ocean road area. Stunning skies!!!

Thanks for the pics, look great. With the dob do you find it uncomfortable / awkward bending over to position the scope/  observe or do you use a chair?

For the SW, would you choose the 80 over the 120 then?

[cletrac1922]

Matt

Not an issue with the dob

With the club belong to on the Goldcoast, we go into schools, as well as scout/guide groups

Use a small kitchen steps ladder, when doing younger students

I am out 2 or 3 nights per month, with the club doing presentations

Very rarely had to adjust the collimation on the dob 

The pics were taken at a recent public day/night viewing presentation, on the foreshore, across the Broadwater from SeaWorld

During the day did solar viewing, then planets and other DSO that night

Had over 800 people come through that day

We had about 30 scopes set up that day

The local media got behind us as well, and promoted the event

In November, doing International Night of the Moon

I live, Goldcoast hinterland, and have fairly clear skies there as well, as sheltered by some small hills behind my place, from light pollution of the Goldcoast

Check out our monthly newsletter on our website

If you ever make it back, welcome to attend one of our monthly club meets

Cheers

John

 

 

 

[JOC]

With my 8' Dob I find a chair help.  Many people find a collapsable adjustable ironing chair works for them, or there are many self build plans around.  I have an ironing stool, but get on better with two very el cheapo plastic bar stools from ebay I have one set high and set lower.  My ironing stool is not very quickly adjusted and that is a consideration.  Othe folk get a water butt stand or even make something.  I tried a water butt stand,  It is a perfect height, but I think the need filling with concrete as mine flexed slightly and wobble was perceptible through the eyepiece.  At moment on the ground with my barstools works best.

[Paul67]

On 09/08/2018 at 22:37, flower_matt said:

Hi David, 

Thanks very much for the warm welcome and advice. 

Although I want to try a dob, i think ill likely go with with 120 ED frac (seems the CA is well controlled on this scope). I'm not going to rush into it and will be observing with my bins probably for the rest of this year.

On the eyepiece front, it seems there is almost more to consider than the scope itself!nI haven't figured this out entirely yet but the Baader Morpheus 17.5 and ES 62 deg LER 32mm are on the shortist so far. Seems the 32mm will give 900/32 = 28 x mag, just a bit longer than the bins so might try use this instead of a finder scope.

Much more reading to be done, very excited about the journey!

Matt

 

This sounds good too me, I'm leaning towards the same eyepieces albeit with a 102 F11 frac.

Given my sky's which sound similar to your's, I deduced double's, globulars, planetary nebula and some galaxy's would be my most likely and achievable targets coupled with an OIII filter. 

[flower_matt]

Hi all,

A little update. So, the more I thought about what would be a good long term visual scope, the bigger and more expensive the search became. APO 140, 152, C9.25 Edge and C11 up there as the top contenders. This is obviously  a lot of money to commit. On balance, with a holiday coming up to Fuertaventura in Nov, I bought a travel scope as a kind of “stepping stone” which should:

1. Give me something to get going with at home and on hols (I’m a little impatient).
2. Give me time to further research what I ultimately want whilst still making progress and learning
3. Give me experience with a frac at different mags etc. IE do I want a larger frac or something different?
4. Test my commitment to the hobby before spending huge amounts
5. Act as a wide field finder later on (together with the EP which would be used no matter what scope I end up with)

What I went with is an Altair 72 EDF Deluxe CNC Refractor and it’s a lovely bit of kit. Also choose a William Optics diagonal and Baader Morpheus 9mm + 17.5 EP, mounted on Manfroto camera tripod. I won’t do a full review but in short I really like it, extremely pinpoint stars (almost too much, the brighter stars are a lot harder to spot than with my bins), very wide FOV (with the 17.5mm I can see both starts either side of M57 in Lyra), beautifully smooth focuser but goes without saying, no light bucket.

So far I have observed, M13, M31, M27, moon, M37, M38 and very faintly M57. Looking forward to adding to this and I just bought a Celestron X-cel 2x barlow for some wide planetary.

In terms of the “big purchase”, as above the front runners are APM 140 / 152, C9.25 edge or C11. However, the achilles heal to my large alt az dream seems the mount. Looks like in the UK, big alt az mounts aren’t really common. I have heard that the Skywatcher Sky Tee 2 and Alt AZ sabre are not great in terms of build quality, so primary selection would be Losmandy AZ8. However, I don’t think this would support the c11 (which might just be too big in general). Also considered the Giro Ercole but seems the AZ8 is more robust. I would aim to twin the scopes using the 72mm as a finder. Not sure how I would add more weight to the 72mm side to even this out though.

Happy to hear anyone’s views on this path and on a heavy duty manual Alt Az mount and APO  v SCT. I have done a fair bit of reading on all of these. Observing is done in a suburban area, so quite a lot of LP unfortunately.

Thanks everyone for your time, I am very much enjoying this journey.

 

[happy-kat]

A 140mm frac is a big beast I think, and a c11. As You've found nothing stops observing then kit you can't be bothered to take outside. I would suggest going to a astro club meet and getting a feel for different sized kit before making any decisions.

Your refractor bought sounds great.

[Greymouser]

If you are considering a SCT, then you could do worse than getting a Celestron 9.25 Evolution, as I just recently did. I put a quick review down in scope setups if your interested. The fact that the mount comes with an inbuilt battery was a big selling point for me, as was the fact that it is very quick and easy to set up. The only downside was the problems I had with the Skyportal app  that I use to control the scope, it crashed and then crashed several times again, I hope this is not a new trend...

 

[Cosmic Geoff]

A C11 on a manual alt-azimuth mount sounds like a really bad idea to me.  A SCT is a narrow field scope and you would be advised to have it on a more sophisticated mount if you are going to find anything with it.  Also before buying, see one in the metal and check that you can pick it up and mount it.

[Mr niall]

That’s already a huge spend on some very very high quality kit. Your potential upgrade path looks a little... frightening! 

Honestly, as you keep alluding to, and as others keep mentioning, a large dob, 12-14 inch would satisfy all your requirements and a truss tube dob for example would pack away to nothing. Have you seen a Celestron Edge in the flesh when mounted? I’ve been on smaller fairground rides.

The kit you’ve bought is already what a lot would describe as aspirational. What is it you are hoping to achieve specifically?

[flower_matt]

19 hours ago, happy-kat said:

A 140mm frac is a big beast I think, and a c11. As You've found nothing stops observing then kit you can't be bothered to take outside. I would suggest going to a astro club meet and getting a feel for different sized kit before making any decisions.

Your refractor bought sounds great.

Thanks happt-kat, yea I need to get out and try some equipment before I can really know the best path to take. 

[flower_matt]

9 hours ago, Greymouser said:

If you are considering a SCT, then you could do worse than getting a Celestron 9.25 Evolution, as I just recently did. I put a quick review down in scope setups if your interested. The fact that the mount comes with an inbuilt battery was a big selling point for me, as was the fact that it is very quick and easy to set up. The only downside was the problems I had with the Skyportal app  that I use to control the scope, it crashed and then crashed several times again, I hope this is not a new trend...

 

Thanks Greymouser, that looks like a lovely scope. I will also have a look into the focal reducer and the impact that has observing. Does does "reasonably" grab and go, which is great.

[flower_matt]

9 hours ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

A C11 on a manual alt-azimuth mount sounds like a really bad idea to me.  A SCT is a narrow field scope and you would be advised to have it on a more sophisticated mount if you are going to find anything with it.  Also before buying, see one in the metal and check that you can pick it up and mount it.

Thank Geoff, yep the FL are pretty long on the SCTs, but I figured if I use the Frac as the finder, then the SCT would still be manageable.

For example, a 40mm EP on the 9.25 gives 57x Mag and a FOV only a little narrower than a 9mm EP on my frac, which is manageable even on a camera tripod. As you say though the setup needs to manageable for mounting etc, I'm going to get to some star parties and checkout some gear. Thanks vm

[flower_matt]

6 hours ago, Mr niall said:

That’s already a huge spend on some very very high quality kit. Your potential upgrade path looks a little... frightening! 

Honestly, as you keep alluding to, and as others keep mentioning, a large dob, 12-14 inch would satisfy all your requirements and a truss tube dob for example would pack away to nothing. Have you seen a Celestron Edge in the flesh when mounted? I’ve been on smaller fairground rides.

The kit you’ve bought is already what a lot would describe as aspirational. What is it you are hoping to achieve specifically?

Agree, it is a LOT of money to be spending. My first scope was an 11cm reflector with EQ mount from Ebay and whilst it sparked the interest, it was a bit of a pain to use and I ended up selling it quite quickly. All well and good for £50 but if spending more I want to make sure I buy the best quality kit that I can keep forever.

Noted on the DOB point, im gonna try one out before making any decisions. Perhaps a small frac and big DOB could be a great combo.

In terms of what I'm looking to achieve, I really just want to see the best quality image possible though the EP for a range of targets (including planets and DSOs), whilst maintaining quick setup time and manual tracking (you cant have it all i know). I am a little space contained in terms of where I observe from and have high fences which can obstruct low objects. That's the main practical concern, also one side of my garden is grass and one is brick, so depending which direction Im viewing the scope will be on different surfaces. I dont' mind the setup being a little on the heavy side, Im in early 30s. Will also mainly be observing from my house due to time constrains / young baby.

Thanks for your feedback Mr Niall

 

[Stu]

There are certainly times when less is more. A huge scope that takes too long to cool or is such a drag to setup you don’t use it, is no good. As said, a Truss dob is great for portability and ability to get to dark skies, but I’ve also tried manual alt az with frac one side and an SCT the other. These pics show a 100mm frac and a C925 on an Ercole Mount and Gitzo Tripod. It worked very well when the scopes are aligned closely, the frac a finder and widefield, the SCT for higher power/greater resolution. I’ve also used a C8 Edge which of anything was probably better, easier to manage certainly.

The other pictures show my suitcase dob, a Sumerian Alkaid 14” f4.5. It is quite an extreme example of portability but certainly is very easy to pop in the boot and get to dark skies.

Many choices out there!