Telescope for a budding stargazer... where to start...

[Erla]

4 minutes ago, Knighty2112 said:

It's always tricky giving advice to newbies. Whilst dobs are cheaper than any other form of scope for the aperture size, the size of them can be a turn off for some people starting out. I too had a 200P-DS Newtonian, which I used on my Skytee II mount, yet whilst I got great views with it the size always made me reach for either one of my 'fracs, or SCT to Mak (plus I don't find Newts intuitive really). Sure, only my 8 inch SCT could match the light grasp of the 200P-DS, but I would much rather use something smaller perhaps that meant I actually used it more. I've just recommended a scope to my brother for a gift to his wife, and avoided a dob altogether. 

I absolutely agree with you - there's so much variables. I wish I had a decent medium sized frac, I get good views of Jupiter from my balcony and there's simply too little space for the Newtonian. different story in the dark site. Another issue, for a beginner, might be collimation - no need for one on the frack, must be done on newt regularly. I think it's good that the thread wasn't hi jacked by dob mob alone. A discussion gives OP an idea who prefer what and for what reasons. Personally, I love to collimate my scope and I find equatorial mount intuitive. I know I'm in a very small minority on these points

[JOC]

2 hours ago, rockystar said:

just playing devil's advocate here, but i see this equally as often with goto scopes, where the user doesn't know the sky, doesn't know the alignment stars and can spend more time aligning the thing than observing (especially in the early days).

[Charic]

If I was advising someone that is just starting, a good pair of binoculars will/should accompany any telescope, the scope for the detail, the binoculars for the vistas.

Good advice above as usual, ronin has a few  specific pointers, also when one of you is not looking through the scope, you can look through the binoculars, win/win

You can get a great pair for under £100, and if its just for testing the waters as they say, the binoculars will never go out of fashion, whereas an unwanted or wrong scope will. 

Aint got a clue how old your man is, but a 10x50 or an 8x40 works wonders when scanning the Milky Way or any other constellations on a dark starry night.

And welcome to the SGL.

[RT65CB-SWL]

Not being a 'dob' owner... I say go with the flo[w].

One thing I picked up earlier in the week on another post regarding a 'dob' , was on the lines of... If you are observing from home in your garden/yard do you have a fence or hedge? - reason for asking is that when viewing near horizon, the hedge of fence will/may be in the way.

BTW - welcome to SGL.

[Charic]

I too have this issue, but its easy enough to raise the scope, however beyond the fence line, there are  rooftops, and beyond the roof tops, tree tops, and anything viewed in the lower angles will inevitably make you look through the deepest part of the atmosphere, so its a no win situation, but not a loss either

[cletrac1922]

Agree Bright Giant about going along to an astronomy before rushing out and buying a scope

Club I belong to has hire scopes for club members, and also able to look through various scopes, as members only too happy to show what they have

From thy land down under, attached link to our club website

Club monthly magazine is Event Horizon

http://sas.org.au/

 

 

John

 

 

 

[MrsC]

Thank you all!

You've all been such fantastic help

I guess my biggest concern about the 200/150 dob is the size and portability. We have the room for it - but I'm not sure our back garden would make ideal viewing grounds what with light pollution from neighbours. How much of an issue would this be? If it was, I'm worried about how feasible it is (how heavy it is) to transport to a dark sky site. 

Are there other alternatives? These are the things that are in my short list...

Skywatcher Heritage-130p Flextube, £137

Skywatcher Explorer 130P (EQ-2), £193

Skywatcher Skyliner 150P Dobsonian, £207

Skywatcher Skyliner 200P Dobsonian, £285

Skywatcher Explorer 150P EQ3-2, £319 (over budget, but happy to stretch a little for portability and if it's a good scope)

I know my budget definitely limits things, and I appreciate I'm not going to be an amazing telescope with it. But I just want something to start him off. I'm also paying for a years membership to our local astro club (Worcester), so he'll have the opportunity to gain experience and figure out what he likes over time, whilst still having something small/cheap at home to play around with in the mean time. 

I'm probably annoying you all with my total lack of knowledge! I'm sorry! But I really do appreciate all of your suggestions. 

[Tigaroo]

2 hours ago, MrsC said:

 

I know my budget definitely limits things, and I appreciate I'm not going to be an amazing telescope with it. 

I beg to differ!! The Skywatcher 200p IS an amazing scope in my humble experience ! It gets the most use out of my 3 scopes , paid about £260 just over two years ago , just spent about £140 on a range of eyepieces and filters , well within your budget! . I have a light polluted difficult garden but have recently spotted the GRS on Jupiter , and I'm finding new DSO's all the time with it. Yet to see what it's really capable of in dark skies as it's impossible to find them !! It travels easily in my Ford Focus , the tube gets strapped across the rear seat and the base goes in the boot , with a handy stool to sit on . Learn the night sky , download stellarium and get ' turn left at Orion ' ....yes there are more sophisticated scopes out there , but I've been into astronomy for about 13 years now and I'm in no hurry to upgrade ! It brings me immense pleasure whenever I use it . The base is a tad heavy but manageable , easily with a little help from the spouse ! Whatever you choose , happy stargazing , but start by learning the sky with the naked eye . 

[Astro Imp]

I know this is controversial but speaking from experience I would not start with a Newtonian on an equatorial mount for visual use. IMO an equatorial mount is only needed for astro photography and you would need to spend most if not all of your budget to get a mount suitable for AP.

 

[SonnyE]

I would suggest you begin here.

And since I'm Galilean, I'd be amiss to not direct your attention to the classics.

And finally, I like the advice you've been given as to a telescope AND some good (powerful) but manageable Binoculars to accompany the telescope. I'd suggest mountable ones so it takes the weight off and stabilizes them. (They can be a bit awkward) You can get an inexpensive tripod for them.

From my experience, I chose to reach high. I started off knowing what my goal was, I got my equipment, and learned to use it. In doing so, I learned many of the Stars and Constellations by repetitive use of my alignments. I dove in without sticking my toe in the water.

It is my opinion that a Go-To mount is a wise choice. It will help find and learn the night skies. Because it takes you to the places without the frustrations.

DOBs have a cult following (And why they get called the DOB MOB). They are quite big and bulky, especially for transporting. I'd suggest you go see one if possible, then see if you want to pick it up and carry it about. Might need a hand truck in the bargain.

In any event, have fun, share the entire experience (Telescope and Binoculars), and Welcome to Astronomy!

 

[JOC]

23 hours ago, Philip R said:

One thing I picked up earlier in the week on another post regarding a 'dob' , was on the lines of... If you are observing from home in your garden/yard do you have a fence or hedge? - reason for asking is that when viewing near horizon, the hedge of fence will/may be in the way.

I am slightly puzzled here as to why this is a perceived issue for Dobs only.  I'm sure any telescope is limited by close hedges and fences isn't it?

[MrsC]

18 minutes ago, SonnyE said:

I would suggest you begin here.

And since I'm Galilean, I'd be amiss to not direct your attention to the classics.

And finally, I like the advice you've been given as to a telescope AND some good (powerful) but manageable Binoculars to accompany the telescope. I'd suggest mountable ones so it takes the weight off and stabilizes them. (They can be a bit awkward) You can get an inexpensive tripod for them.

From my experience, I chose to reach high. I started off knowing what my goal was, I got my equipment, and learned to use it. In doing so, I learned many of the Stars and Constellations by repetitive use of my alignments. I dove in without sticking my toe in the water.

It is my opinion that a Go-To mount is a wise choice. It will help find and learn the night skies. Because it takes you to the places without the frustrations.

DOBs have a cult following (And why they get called the DOB MOB). They are quite big and bulky, especially for transporting. I'd suggest you go see one if possible, then see if you want to pick it up and carry it about. Might need a hand truck in the bargain.

In any event, have fun, share the entire experience (Telescope and Binoculars), and Welcome to Astronomy!

 

Hi! And thank you so much

Funnily enough, that first link was pretty much my starting point! I think I've gotten myself all confused by pretty much reading back to back reviews of everything on that list - and then everyone advising me that a DOB would be my best bet, regardless. I'm just really worried about our space and whether it would work in our garden.

I completely take on your point regarding Go-To mounts. Because of my low budget, I am limited however. Would something like this be okay to start with? 

[Cosmic Geoff]

18 minutes ago, MrsC said:

I completely take on your point regarding Go-To mounts. Because of my low budget, I am limited however. Would something like this be okay to start with?

A Startravel 102 on a Goto?

As it happens, I have this telescope and can put it on the equivalent GoTo mount (I actually did last night). It is also a combination I used on holiday in Scotland. I can easily pick up the Startravel in one hand, either round the barrel or by the mounting bar. It does what it says in the selling page, but be warned that with a f5 achromat objective lens it is not so great for looking at things that require high magnification and high resolution, for which the nearest suitable thing would be a long focal length 102mm refractor or a Maksutov.  Also be aware that the Startravel comes with a 45 deg terrestrial erecting prism diagonal, and for astronomical use it would be wise to buy a 90 deg mirror diagonal (a cheap one will do). It just goes to demonstrate that one telescope cannot cover all requirements.

If this sounds like what you want as a starter and travel scope, then why not?

[SonnyE]

3 minutes ago, MrsC said:

Hi! And thank you so much

Funnily enough, that first link was pretty much my starting point! I think I've gotten myself all confused by pretty much reading back to back reviews of everything on that list - and then everyone advising me that a DOB would be my best bet, regardless. I'm just really worried about our space and whether it would work in our garden.

I completely take on your point regarding Go-To mounts. Because of my low budget, I am limited however. Would something like this be okay to start with? 

I would say Absolutely, Mrs. C ! For starting out I think it would be Ideal. But I try to not spend other peoples monies, just try and help them find their way.

Since you and the Mr. are starting out, and want to share time 'Seeing the sights' I think that would be a great beginning.

Thinking ahead, would YOU like having that telescope and mount next year if he gets something other?

Also, consider a power supply for it. Batteries won't last very long at all. I like my big deep cycle battery for my kit. But a power tank would be fine. I think you would have to buy the cord, and certainly the power tank. And there goes the budget again.

So you can easily see how this hobby goes. And we have yet to look into those Binoculars. Optional really.

[MrsC]

3 minutes ago, SonnyE said:

I would say Absolutely, Mrs. C ! For starting out I think it would be Ideal. But I try to not spend other peoples monies, just try and help them find their way.

Since you and the Mr. are starting out, and want to share time 'Seeing the sights' I think that would be a great beginning.

Thinking ahead, would YOU like having that telescope and mount next year if he gets something other?

Also, consider a power supply for it. Batteries won't last very long at all. I like my big deep cycle battery for my kit. But a power tank would be fine. I think you would have to buy the cord, and certainly the power tank. And there goes the budget again.

So you can easily see how this hobby goes. And we have yet to look into those Binoculars. Optional really.

Thank you!

If I'm considering GOTO's... are you able to let me know what the difference is between these two? They're both around the same price, and for all of my reading, the specifications are just going over my head! Skywatcher Startravel 102 SynScan AZ GOTO and Skywatcher Skymax 102 SynScan AZ GOTO. Is one better than the other?

[Ricochet]

As a rough explanation, the startravel is for low power, wide field views of star fields, not for the moon or planets and the skymax is for high power, narrow views of the moon and planets, not wide star fields. 

Bear in mind that the synscan mount can only be moved via the handset and so you should also factor in the need to buy a suitable power pack if you don't want to constantly be buying batteries. 

[Cosmic Geoff]

2 hours ago, MrsC said:

Thank you!

If I'm considering GOTO's... are you able to let me know what the difference is between these two? They're both around the same price, and for all of my reading, the specifications are just going over my head! Skywatcher Startravel 102 SynScan AZ GOTO and Skywatcher Skymax 102 SynScan AZ GOTO. Is one better than the other?

Depends what you mean by 'better'.  Like it says on the sales pages, one is good for wide fields and the other (the Maksutov) despite its short length is a long focal length instrument and good for use at high magnification for looking at planets etc, but the field of view is relatively small. As I wrote earlier, no one scope is good for everything.  Which do you want?

Maksutovs are great though.

[SonnyE]

What you are looking at there is the same mount (that's the equipment the telescope mounts to) with two different telescopes. The first is called a Refractor Telescope. The other is a Maksutov Telescope (Reflector).

A refractor is basically a tube with a lens assembly in the front, and different eyepieces mount to the back to change the magnifications. Note the Focal Length of the different telescopes. 500 mm, or 1300 mm

The Refractor is a 500 mm focal length, but is called faster optically for photographic purposes. So it has an F5 aperture rating. For photographic purposes, it gathers light faster. Very simply put.

The Maksutov (Mak-su-tov) is a type of a Catadioptric (cat-a-di-optric). Both of these types of telescopes have high magnification capabilities. More explanation here. But more importantly is the focal length of the Mak, 1300mm (f/12.7)  So although you would conceivably get a better view of deeper space objects with the Mak, these views need longer exposure times to capture. These types of Telescopes get these high magnifications by reflecting the starlight from a Primary reflector (in the back or bottom), to a secondary mirror (in the front or top), and finally the light comes into the eyepiece. Also referred to as folding the light.

Now, for all intents and purposes, it also needs to be said that the higher the magnification, it view gets more finicky to watch. So you would see atmospheric disturbances more pronounced. You ever notice heat waves rising from a roadway, or looking across an expanse when it's hot? Well, when things are being magnified, those disturbances get worse. So the higher a telescopes designed magnification gets, the harder it can be to actually see or image through it. Because these Catadioptrics fold light, they have inherent needs. They need to be Culmination to keep all that reflecting lined up. Here's some Chaps having a bit of fun at it. 

All that is also sensitive to heat. So reflectors want a bit of a temperature adjustment time on site, called cool down time. Which means you can't simply take a reflector from your home, plunk it in the garden, and start viewing immediately. Things in those big tubes need time to equalize and stabilize to perform their best. Not a big deal, but these are things I personally did not want to deal with. I decided in the beginning I wanted to do imaging, and chose my kit specifically for that. So I spent 4 months pouring over everything the Internet could offer me. So bear in mind that Dobs, Maks, and Cats (Lovingly shortened terms) are Reflector types, and subject to varying degrees of pains in the derriere.

I preferred to nip those difficulties in the bud. So I decided I'd be a Refractor type. My researching for imaging took me down that garden path, and to smaller telescopes with better lenses, Called Triple Apochromatic Lenses. And finally, the tubes actual construction. Metal tubes can (and will) contract as they cool. In other words, they shrink. Not bad if you want to be observing because you will likely be adjusting the focus anyway. But for imaging it matters. It matters for the focus to hold well for long periods, hours and hours on end. The tube stability brought me to why Carbon Fiber has become the preferred material for the tubes. It's not just interesting looking, it is very stable. So I was finding my way to the best view, with the least troubles, and the best stability.

My intent was to do things once and to enjoy my endeavors. I did have a few rocks tumbling down my learning curve, but managed. I'm finally where I wished to be... 3 years ago. LOL! My learning curve didn't come out of the box smoothly oiled and ready to work.

So in the beginning, for the most enjoyment, with the least troubles to learn your way through, I recommend the simplest telescopes, Refractors on a go-to mount if it can be worked into the budget. And remember there are a sundry of extra things like power supplies, eyepieces, and what-nots. After you and Mr. C get some Star time in, if you want to, you can see what direction you think you'd like to go, Deeper space, Moon and Planetary, Imaging. And you will probably meet others and see what they do and if you would prefer a different direction.

When first starting out, I looked at all the stars in my telescope when doing my first alignment. Holy Moly! Which star was the right one? One of my Friends told me, "Sonny, it will be the brightest one." He was right.

The most important thing is to have fun! Even if the intended object isn't immediately in the eyepiece, take a look around, there is always more to see.

 

 

[Erla]

@SonnyE very good post. Can't argue with your logic. 

However, I think we are going into too much detail (I'm open to stones  thrown, earned for presumption) to help OP.

I think no one would argue that:

ST80 is good

130,150,200 -p are good.

If OP buys ST80, upgrade, if we consider the interest would last, is good for travel-guide scope only in later stages (lets be honest - who of us have as a main scope). 

I'm not one of dob mob. I'm one of egm. And I only use Newtonian (for now) as I spent most of my (ever expanding) budget on a mount, and my mount can handle it. As I'm sliding ever to the side of astrophotography, I think I'll be in the market for ED or.. Or for APO next year. Fracs are great, actually, they are very good. You need one bumpy ride to dark side to know why. It's dark and you need to collimate long tube alone.... 

but for a in house use - I would still recommend 200p dob even if I think dobs (sorry, dob mob) are.. limited as far as the mount is concerned. I know there are GREAT results achieved by the mob and my best.. ill show you what I usually get atm, but if I would buy for this budget - I would buy 200p....

 

[SonnyE]

4 hours ago, Erla said:

@SonnyE very good post. Can't argue with your logic. 

However, I think we are going into too much detail (I'm open to stones  thrown, earned for presumption) to help OP.

I think no one would argue that:

ST80 is good

130,150,200 -p are good.

If OP buys ST80, upgrade, if we consider the interest would last, is good for travel-guide scope only in later stages (lets be honest - who of us have as a main scope). 

I'm not one of dob mob. I'm one of egm. And I only use Newtonian (for now) as I spent most of my (ever expanding) budget on a mount, and my mount can handle it. As I'm sliding ever to the side of astrophotography, I think I'll be in the market for ED or.. Or for APO next year. Fracs are great, actually, they are very good. You need one bumpy ride to dark side to know why. It's dark and you need to collimate long tube alone.... 

but for a in house use - I would still recommend 200p dob even if I think dobs (sorry, dob mob) are.. limited as far as the mount is concerned. I know there are GREAT results achieved by the mob and my best.. ill show you what I usually get atm, but if I would buy for this budget - I would buy 200p....

 

I tend to be thorough when I get to rambling.  Best taken in bites, referred back to, and not stuffed.

Trying to avoid the typical "You HAVE to start here..." type of post, I try to be delicate. Siting the nuances and pitfalls. If one had in mind to do imaging, and chose the wrong telescope, it could be a doomed start.

I did tend to begin with stars in my eyes, too. But I found my direction, EAA (Electronically Assisted Astronomy) and Imaging as my end game. I blame Orion for my desire to pursue Nebulae. And what I pursue is in Deep Space.

Mrs. C is mining down to her first purchase. If it is fraught with pitfalls afterwards, they may lose interest. And that would be tragic.

I have confidence she is headed in the right direction. Just needed a few details explained.

First telescopes can make, or break, a long enjoyable hobby and interest in the Cosmos.

It is amazing what is out there.

[N3ptune]

I think the Dob 6" or 8" is a great idea, but the weight is something to consider too.

The 6": 2 new boxes of 15 kg + 10 kg (The tube is 5.78 kg, 12.74 pounds)

The 8": 2 new boxes of 15 kg and 17 Kg (The tube only 11 kg, 24.25 pounds) 

Depending of the person, there is some lifting involved. Mmy 8" tube is kind of heavy in the stairs but I am not very strong either.

 

[TareqPhoto]

I just started AP very recently, and last month i bought my first equipment ever, and they are the following [main items]:

1. Skywatcher AZ-EQ6, so i can have both modes, for visual i go with AZ and for AP i convert to EQ, simple as that, so it is like 2 mounts in one, pricey yes, but it is a long term investment, you go with AZ-EQ5 if you can save and you will be fine for long time.

2. Skywatcher StartTravel 80, cheap yes, not great for visual yes, not that great for AP yes, but for that price at least i get something to start with, i learnt about the eyepieces and barlow and diagonal with this scope, and i can do wide field AP but with issues such as CA and curvature as i read, well, i can live with that until something else is coming.

3. T-ring and adapters, actually i didn't buy a T-ring because the barlow that came with ST80 is already a T ring attached or included, so i just only bought adapter for Sony and Canon and i am set.

4. Skyglow & moon filter from Baader [called also Neodymium filter, and Boost contrast filter from same brand to kill CA, it causes another cast, so i can live with whatever because it is very cheap scope anyway, so those filters are for tests.

ST80 is good scope as a guide scope too, so i started with it to learn something then i can upgrade for better scope then i turn my ST80 to a guiding scope, and just adding a guiding camera and i am done.

The mount as i said is expensive, very heavy too, but if i put it to use with limited scopes for weight then i won't find better, there are some mounts can handle both but much much pricey, or go with best EQ only mount and also very pricey, i was lucky to have budget for AZ-EQ6 and i was at very tight budget, but when i get a budget then i buy like it is lifetime buy, i won't buy very heavy scope for about 2-4 years maybe if i am still alive, and if  buy only AZ/Alt mount i may regret that if i need AP, for me it is very very simple and straight forward, ASTRONOMY = VISUAL + AP, if not god budget then don't dream about both and don't put both even for near plan, either spend something to have both or just live with lower budget plan, and even i just started recently members in another forums kept saying to me to afford the best EQ mount i can, whether it is $800 or $1000 or $10000 i must go with good EQ mount i can afford, and if i buy something like $3000 EQ mount then i no longer can buy AZ mount even cheapo, and that will leave me with 2 separated mount which will take space anyway.

[Dave In Vermont]

Time to spread around a horror I've had in my collection of images of telescopes. It's either the worst, or the best of the two-worlds.

You decide,

Dave

 

 

[SonnyE]

That thing is farm out, Dave.

Plywood bearings?

[Galen Gilmore]

3 hours ago, Dave In Vermont said:

Time to spread around a horror I've had in my collection of images of telescopes. It's either the worst, or the best of the two-worlds.

You decide,

Dave

 

 

What do you do when looking at the zenith?