A Concerned Son

[cloudsweeper]

2 hours ago, Roy Challen said:

Yeah, my Dad likes model trains too. Didn't know it was possible to spend £2500 on a second hand model!

Wow, Roy - this is beginning to sound like a lost cause.  I just hope he uses and enjoys the thing!

Doug.

[Roy Challen]

4 minutes ago, cloudsweeper said:

Wow, Roy - this is beginning to sound like a lost cause.  I just hope he uses and enjoys the thing!

Doug.

At least I can advise on astronomy gear, the 'other' stuff will have to be down to him!

[Davey-T]

6 hours ago, Roy Challen said:

Yeah, my Dad likes model trains too. Didn't know it was possible to spend £2500 on a second hand model!

LOL made me laugh Roy, at least you've only got one parent driving you mad,  my wife has a garden railway so my son has two of us spending his inheritance .

He recently groaned that it's our fault he hasn't got any hair 

Dave

[cloudsweeper]

59 minutes ago, Davey-T said:

LOL made me laugh Roy, at least you've only got one parent driving you mad,  my wife has a garden railway so my son has two of us spending his inheritance .

He recently groaned that it's our fault he hasn't got any hair 

Dave

........which has me thinking - maybe I should up my own expenditure!

Doug.

[Davey-T]

Just now, cloudsweeper said:

........which has me thinking - maybe I should up my own expenditure!

Doug.

Having spent all my life saving for a rainy day I've decided as you can't take it with you might as well spend on astro gear.

My children have a different financial model,  one which involves maxing out your credit cards and hoping you can pay some off at the end of the month 

Dave

[Nyctimene]

What would happen, if you' d show your father this thread?

Stephan

[michaelmorris]

He is  a grown up and can choose to take advice or not and to spend his money however he wishes, even if it doesn't appear to someone outside not to being spent wisely. There is only so much you can do.

I have a similar issue with my mother sometimes buying inappropriate tech.  I try and advise her but sometimes she just makes a poor choice of technology.  I'm not going to give her grief over it.

[JohnSadlerAstro]

Hi,

This sounds just like my Grandad...except he would go for wonderful gadgets from "Easy Living"  catalogues.......like a handheld sewing machine.......you can imagine how happy we were when he started using it!  

But there was something special about his independence--it gave us something to laugh about with him, and it showed that he hadn't given up yet.

John

[JOC]

Great thread.  Providing your dad is complis-mentis I think it's more about exerting his independence and feeling he can make his own decisions.  He may not ever use what he buys, as has been mentioned sometimes it is just about possession and looking at what you own. 

For example, I have a thing about hats - I rarely have occasions to wear them, but I own a good number (though they are expensive ones bought at a knock down price when I see them) and will often go through sessions of just trying them on.   Why else do other people have ornaments, or collections of any other items?  Sometimes its about having better than your peers (you, in this case), sometimes its about being able to make your own choices and decisions.  I personally used to get quite infuriated when I was married that everything I bought for myself would within a few weeks be superseded in functionality, cost, brand etc. by either my ex. or my ex. MIL.  Even now my current BF has the same trait.  So now I will go ahead and plan and make my own big purchasing decisions without asking anyone I know, i.e. big screen TV, IT equipment, cars, household appliances and my new telescope.  Even so I can bet that within 6 weeks the item will have been superseded by him by bigger and better than I have purchased, and/or my personally considered decision is criticised to the nth degree.  I find this totally infuriating and I feel that it insults the decisions I have seen fit to make.  So it is well worth the OP approaching things carefully. 

On the other hand it could just be a case of 'retired and spending the kids inheritance'.  So if the OP has a thing about astronomy and his dad is actually buying quite good stuff (generally - although too advanced for him personally) and if the OP is the sole beneficiary in his will, it might actually be in OP's best interests to encourage dad to by the best, quality stuff he possibly can.  In fact you don't know if this isn't what is at the back of his dad's mind anyway - to leave his son some really nice kit in the future. 

My feeling would just be to leave well alone.

NB.  At least it isn't like my gran who would buy anything (whether needed or not) just because it happened to be a 'bargain' - don't get me started on bright orange curtains with lurid purple and green carpets!

[LukeSkywatcher]

My nephew expressed great concern last week when he saw my 4 telescopes in one room. He couldnt comprehend why i need/have 4 scopes. He thinks i'm spending all my money on stuff i'll never use. I told him some people would spend the same amount on 1 scope, as i have spent on all 4 of mine. I didnt have the heart to tell or show him the few thousand euro's worth of other gear i have tucked away.

Now, regarding the dad situation........

Mr. Spock hit the nail on the head. Dads will be dads, and there are only 2 ways of doing things:

1/ Their way

2/ The wrong way

Heavens forbid if i EVER attempted to tell my dad that he was doing something wrong. Even if he tried it his way and failed, and ended up doing it my way.........he would never admit it. Not that he didnt value my opinion. We are all entitled to one. He just never cared much for it, or anyone else's for that matter.

Stubborn,proud man was my father. He'd cut his nose off to spite his face (or something like that).

 

 

[RichM63]

Quote

I hope he finds the patience until my next visit (which I suspect will be a long one) so that I can show him how to do it. That's what he needs really,

That may very well be what he is hoping for.

I find that when someone has decided to buy something, then they will eventually.

One nice thing about the first and subsequent posts from the OP is that none of this was gear that the OP secretly wanted himself. We hear too many tales about folk persuading other folk to part with their hard earned, for less than altruistic reasons.

Best wishes to both you and your dad Roy.

[Roy Challen]

6 hours ago, JOC said:

So if the OP has a thing about astronomy and his dad is actually buying quite good stuff (generally - although too advanced for him personally) and if the OP is the sole beneficiary in his will, it might actually be in OP's best interests to encourage dad to by the best, quality stuff he possibly can.  In fact you don't know if this isn't what is at the back of his dad's mind anyway - to leave his son some really nice kit in the future. 

 

Hmm, hadn't thought of that! I do have a long wish list...Takahashi, Tele Vue, Zeiss, Pentax, house in dark location with big garden etc. etc.

Not really! I'm the sort of person who buys what he needs, to do what he wants to do, and nothing more.

[Roy Challen]

2 hours ago, RichM63 said:

One nice thing about the first and subsequent posts from the OP is that none of this was gear that the OP secretly wanted himself. We hear too many tales about folk persuading other folk to part with their hard earned, for less than altruistic reasons.

Best wishes to both you and your dad Roy.

Cheers Rich! Yeah, I'd like to be able to afford what he bought, but actually having it wouldn't suit my needs at all. His set-up is waaay to big and bulky, and my gear isn't exactly lightweight either. I couldn't be bothered with all the hassle of setting up, much prefer binocular astronomy these days. Like I said earlier though, I wouldn't half mind having a look through his scopes one day!

[LukeSkywatcher]

2 hours ago, RichM63 said:

That may very well be what he is hoping for.

I find that when someone has decided to buy something, then they will eventually.

One nice thing about the first and subsequent posts from the OP is that none of this was gear that the OP secretly wanted himself. We hear too many tales about folk persuading other folk to part with their hard earned, for less than altruistic reasons.

Best wishes to both you and your dad Roy.

How very true. Many people in Roy's situation would be delighted with the gear their father has bought, and cant use because they would take it over or inherit it.

Not in this case.

I do feel that the is a happy medium. Its something along the lines of encouraging your dads interest, but at the same time gently nudging him towards gear he can and will use. I know you have tried and he has gone against you and bought what the hell he thinks he needs and wants. That's fine too. He is old enough and worked all his life and he honestly deserves nice things in life............but NOT if he cant use them. Thats just a waste of money, but you try telling him that.

You are between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, you dont want to tell your dad how to spend his money, and on the other hand you dont want to see him blow it either (no matter the cost).

No chance of you spending time with him every couple of weeks (for a night or two) observing and using the gear he has bought?. I dont know how far you live apart. It would be nice even a couple times a month, to spend the weekend (or even a night) with the dad. Teach him the ropes............

 

[JOC]

Hi Roy Challen, well so do I, but I wouldn't mind betting that a good few parents in a comfortable position have a notion to leave their offspring something nice somewhere even if their kids have a tendency to buy what they need anyway.  Maybe you will be able to set up a school astronomy club in your dad's name!!  My guess is that dad wouldn't be spending the cash if he couldn't afford it.  He is probably having a whale of a time, buying 'boys toys' waiting for the delivery man, putting it all together, coveting the possessions etc.  Yes, I can see why you find it infuriating - I have a tendency to think that there must always be an easier route to doing things and often think that most folks would like to know this, but often folks enjoy figuring things out for themselves - me included.  I find that is often the easiest way to find out how to do things.

[Roy Challen]

5 minutes ago, LukeSkywatcher said:

he honestly deserves nice things in life............but NOT if he cant use them. Thats just a waste of money, but you try telling him that.

You are between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, you dont want to tell your dad how to spend his money, and on the other hand you dont want to see him blow it either (no matter the cost).

No chance of you spending time with him every couple of weeks (for a night or two) observing and using the gear he has bought?. I dont know how far you live apart. It would be nice even a couple times a month, to spend the weekend (or even a night) with the dad. Teach him the ropes............

 

Exactly, Paul. He can, and does, blow his money on whatever he wants. I just happen to be able to advise him on astronomy gear, so it bothers me that he buys stuff that he will either find difficult to use, or end up gathering dust before being sold off. I live a couple of hundred miles from him and I don't drive (have license, don't have car) so my brother normally drives. But we both have our lives to get on with, so don't see him as often as maybe we should. It is his birthday soon though, so my wife and I will probably hire a car and go to his place, and I'll have an opportunity to at least get him acquainted with the basics of his set up. I'm part way through writing a astro-beginners guide for him, but actually setting equipment up will require face to face tutorials

[LukeSkywatcher]

5 hours ago, LukeSkywatcher said:

My nephew expressed great concern last week when he saw my 4 telescopes in one room. He couldnt comprehend why i need/have 4 scopes. He thinks i'm spending all my money on stuff i'll never use. I told him some people would spend the same amount on 1 scope, as i have spent on all 4 of mine. I didnt have the heart to tell or show him the few thousand euro's worth of other gear i have tucked away.

Now, regarding the dad situation........

Mr. Spock hit the nail on the head. Dads will be dads, and there are only 2 ways of doing things:

1/ Their way

2/ The wrong way

Heavens forbid if i EVER attempted to tell my dad that he was doing something wrong. Even if he tried it his way and failed, and ended up doing it my way.........he would never admit it. Not that he didnt value my opinion. We are all entitled to one. He just never cared much for it, or anyone else's for that matter.

Stubborn,proud man was my father. He'd cut his nose off to spite his face (or something like that).

 

 

Just to "annoy" my nephew after his concern about my finances last week (but mainly because i like it and can afford it)........yesterday, i went out and bought a 2017 British and Irish Lions rugby jersey and sent him a "selfie" of me wearing it.

His reply?..........

"Damn you!!!!!.....now i want one".

http://www.lovell-rugby.co.uk/Rugby-Shirts/Canterbury/British-and-Irish-Lions-2017-Match-Day-Pro-S-or-S-Rugby-Shirt-Tango-Red/size_XXL?gclid=CM6bmLe8qdECFe-T7Qod6RMEyQ

On the plus side..........we both agreed that we will go to a few Leinster Rugby games together this year and perhaps even a 6 Nations game or two. Its spending time together,enjoying a common interest.

p.s.~the same jersey will double up during the upcoming 6 Nations (apart from when i am wearing the green of Ireland).....as i am a neutral spectator during any England,Scotland or Wales game and the jersey has all the emblems. 

I digress.

 

 

[jACK101]

Roy, You could almost have been writing this about me. May I give my perspective which may be nearer to that of your Dad's.

 

I am 75, have been an active person all my life, but 2 years ago had to undergo major surgery to remove a very large tumour from my chest cavity. With chemotherapy, surgery and radio therapy and loss of the use of 1 lung and partial radiation damage to the other, I was pretty much knackered.

 

I could not do the things I had previously taken for granted. Weeding the garden was now a major chore. I had to re-assess my situation.  I had always in the past looked to the future. As you get to my age the future is inevitably getting shorter and it is more difficult to face up to.

 

In that situation, what decisions you make become even more important.

 

I decided that I had to find something to do that was within my abilities, which was interesting and absorbing and would not run out of content in the time frame I was considering.

 

Astronomy was the answer I came up with. I bought a Celestron 925 and lots of books from Amazon. I immediately had a problem because the 925 is a large beast and I had trouble handling it.

 

I overcame that by building a ramp, a small trolley to help me move it and a block and tackle to lift it. My wife is now encouraging me to build an observatory.

 

The point is that you have to continue looking forward, rather than back. If you look backwards all the time then depression and other problems are likely.

 

It sounds to me that your Dad may be doing exactly the same. if so he should be encouraged, so long as his spending is not causing other problems. Your decision to teach him is undoubtedly the right one. At some point in the future you may well have cause to be thankful for that decision and it will also be good for your Dad. You sound like the kind of son that all of us would wish for. I wish you luck.

 

 

Jack

[cloudsweeper]

@jACK101 - Jack: that's a very good expression of your experiences, feelings, and wishes.  I admire how you've overcome the problems of a largish 'scope, and wish you well for enjoying it into the future!

Doug.

[barkis]

Your post fills me with Admiration Jack. You are a courageous man, no question about it.
You've fought back from an awful experience, and determined not to feel sorry for yourself.
I salute you sir .

[Davesellars]

It does sound like your Dad had a very large case of aperture fever early on...   A 12" newt is a beast to pick up and stick it on an EQ mount!  Really, not sure that I'd care for doing that myself and I'm only in my forties...   That AND pick up and setup an NEQ6 (no small order...)   So, yes you're quite right to be concerned and doubt if it would get used unless you could set it up somewhere permanently.

1st, how about a decent mount for those large bins like a parallelogram binocular mount that would be much more comfortable to use.   Then put the money from the sale of the 12" beast and NEQ6 to something more suitable scope and mount.

[Roy Challen]

9 hours ago, jACK101 said:

Roy, You could almost have been writing this about me. May I give my perspective which may be nearer to that of your Dad's.

 

I am 75, have been an active person all my life, but 2 years ago had to undergo major surgery to remove a very large tumour from my chest cavity. With chemotherapy, surgery and radio therapy and loss of the use of 1 lung and partial radiation damage to the other, I was pretty much knackered.

 

I could not do the things I had previously taken for granted. Weeding the garden was now a major chore. I had to re-assess my situation.  I had always in the past looked to the future. As you get to my age the future is inevitably getting shorter and it is more difficult to face up to.

 

In that situation, what decisions you make become even more important.

 

I decided that I had to find something to do that was within my abilities, which was interesting and absorbing and would not run out of content in the time frame I was considering.

 

Astronomy was the answer I came up with. I bought a Celestron 925 and lots of books from Amazon. I immediately had a problem because the 925 is a large beast and I had trouble handling it.

 

I overcame that by building a ramp, a small trolley to help me move it and a block and tackle to lift it. My wife is now encouraging me to build an observatory.

 

The point is that you have to continue looking forward, rather than back. If you look backwards all the time then depression and other problems are likely.

 

It sounds to me that your Dad may be doing exactly the same. if so he should be encouraged, so long as his spending is not causing other problems. Your decision to teach him is undoubtedly the right one. At some point in the future you may well have cause to be thankful for that decision and it will also be good for your Dad. You sound like the kind of son that all of us would wish for. I wish you luck.

 

 

Jack

Thank you for your kind and inspiring comment Jack. I hope your health is better these days, I have seen first hand the effects of chemotherapy. As for the other treatments, it must have been hard.

My Dad only recently retired (he is 70 next month) and he is just bored. He doesn't really think about things too much, he is far more impulsive. So, when he tells me he researched buying a telescope, I know that he just looked at a couple of magazine adverts then bought what he liked the look of. As other people have said, it's his choice, he's worked hard for it. And I agree...to a certain extent.

However, his impulsiveness means that unless I encourage and teach him in this hobby (why he didn't ask me about telescopes before buying one is still a  mystery to me), he will get bored and frustrated that he doesn't know how to use these instruments. Then they'll get sold in order to fund the next 'hobby'. Astronomy isn't the first hobby he's spent thousands on, then just given up. He's bought 4 air rifles in the last 2 years, one costing £2,000. He used them in his hallway (5 meters in length) and told me he was 'getting good at it'. At my shooting club, I showed him what good was (I have a 98 average out of 100 at 25yrd). That was a year ago now, and was pretty much the last time he used them. Now they're just gathering dust waiting to be sold.

Now, I know that I said it's his choice about how to spend his money, but when it's thousands of pounds wasted  like that (he also bought and sold a; car (Ford Focus), a laptop, a £2000 digital SLR, a £300 compact camera, numerous lenses, a couple of scooters, God knows how much hi-fi equipment, loads of ridiculously expensive model trains, etc. etc.) then I do feel concerned because he still has plenty of years left in him (two centenarians on his side of the family, and quite a few in their 90s !), but not an unlimited supply of money. He also goes on lots of coach trips around the country, but these are good - they get him out and about, they add experience to his life and he can't sell them when he gets bored!

I'm not really trying to stop him spending his money like this, hard to change the habit of a lifetime (which has occasionally caused problems in the past), just trying get him to think more about what he's doing. In the case of astronomy, I do at least home some ability which I can share with him (trying to teach him how to shoot better was a waste of time), and he says he's willing to learn. I actually managed to get him to text me the other day, which trust me, is a positive step in the right direction.

I have talked to him extensively about this, basically saying to him everything that I've said (and what others have said) in this thread, and he seems to have taken the majority of it on board, which is a start. How much of it he retains is down to me I guess. Hopefully with regular encouragement re. astronomy and the general use of technology I can get him to understand and enjoy at least some of his hobbies a bit better (hoping for a lot better...but we'll see).

[jACK101]

30 minutes ago, Roy Challen said:

Thank you for your kind and inspiring comment Jack. I hope your health is better these days, I have seen first hand the effects of chemotherapy. As for the other treatments, it must have been hard.

My Dad only recently retired (he is 70 next month) and he is just bored. He doesn't really think about things too much, he is far more impulsive. So, when he tells me he researched buying a telescope, I know that he just looked at a couple of magazine adverts then bought what he liked the look of. As other people have said, it's his choice, he's worked hard for it. And I agree...to a certain extent.

However, his impulsiveness means that unless I encourage and teach him in this hobby (why he didn't ask me about telescopes before buying one is still a  mystery to me), he will get bored and frustrated that he doesn't know how to use these instruments. Then they'll get sold in order to fund the next 'hobby'. Astronomy isn't the first hobby he's spent thousands on, then just given up. He's bought 4 air rifles in the last 2 years, one costing £2,000. He used them in his hallway (5 meters in length) and told me he was 'getting good at it'. At my shooting club, I showed him what good was (I have a 98 average out of 100 at 25yrd). That was a year ago now, and was pretty much the last time he used them. Now they're just gathering dust waiting to be sold.

Now, I know that I said it's his choice about how to spend his money, but when it's thousands of pounds wasted  like that (he also bought and sold a; car (Ford Focus), a laptop, a £2000 digital SLR, a £300 compact camera, numerous lenses, a couple of scooters, God knows how much hi-fi equipment, loads of ridiculously expensive model trains, etc. etc.) then I do feel concerned because he still has plenty of years left in him (two centenarians on his side of the family, and quite a few in their 90s !), but not an unlimited supply of money. He also goes on lots of coach trips around the country, but these are good - they get him out and about, they add experience to his life and he can't sell them when he gets bored!

I'm not really trying to stop him spending his money like this, hard to change the habit of a lifetime (which has occasionally caused problems in the past), just trying get him to think more about what he's doing. In the case of astronomy, I do at least home some ability which I can share with him (trying to teach him how to shoot better was a waste of time), and he says he's willing to learn. I actually managed to get him to text me the other day, which trust me, is a positive step in the right direction.

I have talked to him extensively about this, basically saying to him everything that I've said (and what others have said) in this thread, and he seems to have taken the majority of it on board, which is a start. How much of it he retains is down to me I guess. Hopefully with regular encouragement re. astronomy and the general use of technology I can get him to understand and enjoy at least some of his hobbies a bit better (hoping for a lot better...but we'll see).

Roy,

 

Thank you for your reply. You have a difficult task and only you and your dad can sort it out. I hope you manage to do that so that you can reduce the worry that this must be to you and also improve things for your dad.  All the best.

 

Jack

[JOC]

Are you sure he hasn't had a secret lottery win he hasn't told you about?!!

[barkis]

That is some quandary you found yourself in Roy. I hope, but also feel that your dilemma will evolve into a satisfactory conclusion in time.         
Did your Dad accrue all that other stuff after, or before the first instrument bought ? 
If afterwards, perhaps he just caught a large dose of Aperture Fever, after all, how many of us have contracted that ailment ?.               
 Hope it all settles down amicably.