EQ8 PRO

[Dbswales]

I'm currently using an HEQ5 pro and my 130PDS for imaging. I feel an upgrade is due anytime soon before I get waylaid with Christmas and funds subsequently diminish with kids thoughts of the newest phones, consoles etc etc etc.

Initially thought about upgrading the scope but I'm now thinking I'd be better off maybe upgrading the mount instead. I've read favourable reports on the EQ8 and in particular wanted to know how successful unguided subs were to those of you who own the mount. I'm currently using a Polemaster and get it, in my eyes anyway, smack on every time. Soon as I start the PHD2 procedure, it just seems to takes ages and ages and will inevitably end up drift aligning to 'improve the graph'. This can, depending on conditions that I'm under, take absolutely ages. (Or at least it feels that way) Even then I'm not that happy with subs of over 3 mins.

I'm thinking if I can buy a mount that can do the +3 mins subs unguided then at least it gives me a larger portion of my imaging time actually doing that, Imagining.

I know the cost of the mount is substantially more than someone of my limited ability should be spending but I'm getting to the stage where, If I'm out and see that I have a limited amount of time available I'd rather be imaging then just 'fiddling' around with PHD2.

I'm kind of trying to make myself think that if I decide to upgrade, then the better mount is the obvious way forward and will at least benefit in the future whenever I go for a scope upgrade.

Hope all that makes sense

[geordie85]

I've used the polemaster with my Neq6 and managed 15 mins unguided with nice round stars still. So I'd imagine the neq8 should be able to handle the same without any problems. 

Mind you I was imaging with a WO star 71 with an atik 383L and SX filter wheel which has a wide FOV and is nice and light.

[wxsatuser]

I still think you will need to guide, at least sooner or later.

The HEQ5 Pro should easily do 10minutes and more guided, don't know what an unguided EQ8 does, still need to get accurate PA whatever.

I eventually got shot of PHD and got a Lacerta MGEN 2, no more worries with PHD and camera control plus dithering to boot.
The Lacerta easily does 10minutes or more and the dithering is so easy.

[red dwalf]

i use the excellent Chris Shiliito polar alignment tool,

 

works very well and is easy and quick to do without expensive polemaster cameras.

[Sp@ce_d]

I've been running an EQ8 in the Obsy for a couple of years now. I also have an HEQ5 & NEQ6.

The EQ8 is quite a step up from the 5 & 6. Its a great mount for the cost if you are prepared to put a little work & care into setting it up.

I'll just make a few quick points to consider about an EQ8 (as I normally end up with war & peace & find everyone's answered ahead of me ) .. see 3 already!

TBH.. when I think of unguided I don't really seriously start thinking about decent sub length before 10 Micron & upwards!

Portability. The EQ8 is quite heavy & comes in flight cases... big ones!.. I wouldn't want to even try lugging it about now, I was struggling with the 6 in the end! So I always take the 5.

Guiding. I've never seriously tried unguided. Getting the balance right is "interesting" with the motors being "offset" I just accept now that I may loose a sub here & there in certain parts of the sky whilst the automation "sorts out" the guiding.

I think Gina did some unguided tests with the EQ8?

Capacity: Do you "need" the capacity of this mount?.. If you do then theres not really anything else in this price bracket.. the Mesu is probably the next up.

Don't take this as a "put off" I like this mount it does what I wanted it to do but lets consider what you are trying to achieve to see if this would be the right tool for this particular job

[Dbswales]

Thanks for your replies.

I've also been in touch with Martin of FLO who has given me some great advice too. I should have perhaps added to my initial post that I was also at some stage this year probably going to add an Esprit 120 which would load the HEQ5 to the degree where I'd struggle with the loading. The mount is only going to be in my garden until early spring next year when we move and i'll hopefully get it into a permanent obsy.

1 hour ago, Sp@ce_d said:

I've been running an EQ8 in the Obsy for a couple of years now. I also have an HEQ5 & NEQ6.

The EQ8 is quite a step up from the 5 & 6. Its a great mount for the cost if you are prepared to put a little work & care into setting it up.

I'll just make a few quick points to consider about an EQ8 (as I normally end up with war & peace & find everyone's answered ahead of me ) .. see 3 already!

TBH.. when I think of unguided I don't really seriously start thinking about decent sub length before 10 Micron & upwards!

Portability. The EQ8 is quite heavy & comes in flight cases... big ones!.. I wouldn't want to even try lugging it about now, I was struggling with the 6 in the end! So I always take the 5.

Guiding. I've never seriously tried unguided. Getting the balance right is "interesting" with the motors being "offset" I just accept now that I may loose a sub here & there in certain parts of the sky whilst the automation "sorts out" the guiding.

I think Gina did some unguided tests with the EQ8?

Capacity: Do you "need" the capacity of this mount?.. If you do then theres not really anything else in this price bracket.. the Mesu is probably the next up.

Don't take this as a "put off" I like this mount it does what I wanted it to do but lets consider what you are trying to achieve to see if this would be the right tool for this particular job

I did follow Gina's post about the unguided element which I found interesting and as yet don't have the requirement for the EQ8 capacity but wanted to future proof and have a mount which would stand me in good stead for a good number of years.

Martin has also mentioned the 6 and this may in fact be the way forward but as always, looking at the more expensive piece of equipment, you feel that it'd be the best way forward.

I totally understand the best way forward is to guide and as much as I detest the time it seems to take, I do enjoy the end result and seeing the graph level out. I realise that Polemaster isn't going to get you perfect PA but hoped that it would be closer than PHD2 seems to think it is.

 

[ollypenrice]

To be honest I don't accept any of your reasoning on the guiding issue. Guiding makes life easier, not harder, and makes setup faster, not slower. When you see people using 10 Microns or ASAs 'unguided' they are not really unguidied in that there is still a feedback loop from the absolute encoders in conversation with a very accurate planetarium model of the sky, which has to be constructed when the rig is set up. PA has to be excellent and the model accurate.

Compared with this, a guided setup will track accurately with an indifferent polar alignment, the only limitation being that, with poor PA, subs will be limited by field rotation. That said, a casual PA should be good for 10 minutes, only 30 minute subs needed very good PA.

The EQ8 is a big mount but not a particularly accurate one.  With your camera and an Esprit 120 you'd be at 1.06 arcseconds per pixel abnd that needs serious accuracy. Short of a mount with absolute encoders this means guiding. There is absolutely no doubt about this. If guiding is not working for you, then address that issue. You have to get guiding to work.

Olly

 

[Scott]

I'm with Olly re guiding. I'd also add that if I was spending eq8+120 esprit money, there's no way I'd be happy grabbing 3 min subs. get guiding, get long subs and get top class images

 

[ChrisLX200]

Guiding only sounds (and looks) complicated when you have never actually tried doing it, in fact it is a very simple concept. I used to autoguide with a Losamandy G11 and it was quick to get up and running - the real issue however, is getting the guiding fully optimised so you obtain the best possible performance. Even when un-optimised the guider will go a long way to correcting drift due to innacurate polar alignment, and this is when using the default values in PHD2 (PHD is short for 'Push Here Dummy' and was always targeted at those who did not want to mess with complex software!). Eventually you will become familiar with what each of the parameters do and feel confident to tweak them to suit your own system.

Olly is correct in that unguided operation of the 10-Micron is heavilly dependant on the sky model you generate when the mount is first set up, and the mount's absolute encoders then know where the OTA is pointing all the time. This information is used in a feedback loop with the motors. One other advantage of this system is that encoders can also [mostly] correct for breezy conditions that may be gently buffeting the scope: when the wind pushes the OTA off target the motors instantly react and push it back again. OK, perhaps not instantly - but hundreds of times faster than any guidescope loop has a chance to react. Just a FYI 

ChrisH

 

 

[RayD]

I'm pretty new to imaging and have to say I use guiding as a matter of course now, and do find it pretty easy.  However, I also note that guiding can only make life easier and set up faster if you know how to do it.

It's fine for those who do it, and have done it for ages to be almost dismissive of how easy it is, but I personally found it quite daunting to begin with, and had to do lots of research in to the various settings in PHD2 before I was getting anything like usably good graphs.

I can see where the op is coming from, and concur that if you are totally new to AP, or aren't new to AP but struggling to get to grips with guiding, then it can seem like an insurmountable task, but I would suggest sticking at it, do plenty of reading up (there are some good tutorials on YouTube) and when you run in to an issue just deal with than in isolation rather than looking at the sum of the parts.  

As others have said, if you can nail guiding, you may not have to go as far as the EQ8 if you really don't need to carry the weight it can take.

Good luck.

[Scott]

2 minutes ago, RayD said:

I'm pretty new to imaging and have to say I use guiding as a matter of course now, and do find it pretty easy.  However, I also note that guiding can only make life easier and set up faster if you know how to do it.

It's fine for those who do it, and have done it for ages to be almost dismissive of how easy it is, but I personally found it quite daunting to begin with, and had to do lots of research in to the various settings in PHD2 before I was getting anything like usably good graphs.

I can see where the op is coming from, and concur that if you are totally new to AP, then it can seem like an insurmountable task, but I would suggest sticking at it, do plenty of reading up (there are some good tutorials on YouTube) and when you run in to an issue just deal with than in isolation rather than looking at the sum of the parts.  

As others have said, if you can nail guiding, you may not have to go as far as the EQ8 if you really don't need to carry the weight it can take.

Good luck.

as hard as guiding might seem, its nothing compared to the challenge of getting a top quality image from unguided subs from a 900mm scope.

[RayD]

Just now, Scott said:

as hard as guiding might seem, its nothing compared to the challenge of getting a top quality image from unguided subs from a 900mm scope.

Couldn't agree more, but as with everything, it's only easy if you know (or take the time to learn) how to do it.

I fly a helicopter regularly and don't even think about it, but I still remember the first time I ever flew one and thinking at the time how easy rubbing my belly and patting my head all of a sudden seemed by comparison, and that I would never be able to do all these things at once.

 

[Starlight 1]

I know what you mean flying helicopters , PhD works the same way balancing a ping-pong ball on the end of  needle every time the Star move it throwing correction to mount. The more you understand on balancing the telescope and getting PhD to put in the smallest corrections as possible better the guiding will be don't underestimate the abilities of the HEQ5 PRO mount.

[Dbswales]

Thank you for all your advice guys. Yes, I agree that perseverance with guiding is absolutely necessary and will have to get it nailed down sooner rather than later. I've just got in from a clearish night and just spent the time looping and calibrating to try and get a relatively acceptable looking graph.  

1 hour ago, RayD said:

I'm pretty new to imaging and have to say I use guiding as a matter of course now, and do find it pretty easy.  However, I also note that guiding can only make life easier and set up faster if you know how to do it.

It's fine for those who do it, and have done it for ages to be almost dismissive of how easy it is, but I personally found it quite daunting to begin with, and had to do lots of research in to the various settings in PHD2 before I was getting anything like usably good graphs.

I can see where the op is coming from, and concur that if you are totally new to AP, or aren't new to AP but struggling to get to grips with guiding, then it can seem like an insurmountable task, but I would suggest sticking at it, do plenty of reading up (there are some good tutorials on YouTube) and when you run in to an issue just deal with than in isolation rather than looking at the sum of the parts.  

As others have said, if you can nail guiding, you may not have to go as far as the EQ8 if you really don't need to carry the weight it can take.

Good luck.

That's reassuring to read especially about dealing with the settings which I admit I do find all a bit baffling especially when you think you're looking good and then see the spikes gathering momentum ? 

Thanks again, IM GOINNA BEAT THIS!   (hopefully?)

 

[Starlight 1]

When I look at the graphs that tell how good my balancing of the telescope is and the log what Phd is doing.

[ollypenrice]

Do you use the Guide Assistant in PHD2? Let it run for several minutes and just accept and apply its recommendations. It really has worked well for me.

I think Scott made a great point when he mentioned spending thousands on a setup and then shooting it in the foot with three minute subs.

Olly

[DaveS]

As Olly says, only the 10 Micron and ASA mounts will do "unguided" and in both cases guide on their encoders. ASA have a slight advantage as the mount will run a local pointing model before running your subs. Mine got an error of 1.5' on each axis down to negligible 0.0" and 0.1" for Dec and RA.

Both are, however, a fast route to bankruptcy.

[Davey-T]

Guiding is to compensate for shortcomings in the mechanics of the mount, some mounts are good out of the box, some are terrible, so some folks find guiding easy and some damn near impossible, is there a connection ?  

The best way to start is to observe the unguided performance

Dave

[Davey-T]

12 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

To be honest I don't accept any of your reasoning on the guiding issue. Guiding makes life easier, not harder, and makes setup faster, not slower. When you see people using 10 Microns or ASAs 'unguided' they are not really unguidied in that there is still a feedback loop from the absolute encoders in conversation with a very accurate planetarium model of the sky, which has to be constructed when the rig is set up. PA has to be excellent and the model accurate.

Olly

 

In our much missed friends Y'Tube vid on 10Micron mounts he mentions that when he first installed the mount at your place it was 52 arc minutes out of polar alignment and he imaged OK with it for 4 months .

Don't know if ASA could cope with that ? definitely don't think an EQ8 would

I can get PA error down to practically zero on the 10Micron though

Dave

[ollypenrice]

Don't 10 Micron recommend 30 arcsecs, though?

Olly

[Davey-T]

5 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

Don't 10 Micron recommend 30 arcsecs, though?

Olly

Probably, just mentioned it was possible, not necessary though as using PA routine on the 10Micron makes it easy to get pretty much perfect PA.

Apologies for going a bit of subject

Dave

 

[DaveS]

37 minutes ago, Davey-T said:

In our much missed friends Y'Tube vid on 10Micron mounts he mentions that when he first installed the mount at your place it was 52 arc minutes out of polar alignment and he imaged OK with it for 4 months .

Don't know if ASA could cope with that ? definitely don't think an EQ8 would

I can get PA error down to practically zero on the 10Micron though

Dave

I don't know either, and I'm not going to deliberately un-align mine to find out, after I don't know how many PA iterations . ASA do say that for a portable set-up with a simple sky model 10 arc min should be OK, while for a pier mounted DDM they recommend getting down to below 3 min.

[Dbswales]

7 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

Do you use the Guide Assistant in PHD2? Let it run for several minutes and just accept and apply its recommendations. It really has worked well for me.

I think Scott made a great point when he mentioned spending thousands on a setup and then shooting it in the foot with three minute subs.

Olly

Yes I'll concentrate on that aspect the next time I'm out. It obvious I guess that everyone will use different parameters and there isn't a 'one size fits all' sort of thing. 

6 hours ago, Davey-T said:

Guiding is to compensate for shortcomings in the mechanics of the mount, some mounts are good out of the box, some are terrible, so some folks find guiding easy and some damn near impossible, is there a connection ?  

The best way to start is to observe the unguided performance

Dave

Lol, I'd love that to be the case with me but I honestly realise that the fault will no doubt be at my doorstep. On my heq5, I can get unguided to around 150 seconds before trails which is why I mentioned the +3 mins as a target. 

I think after what you guys have said, the upgrade is not going to happen and even if I did, it'd be the neq6 rather than a beast. I've had such a nightmare with getting guiding going that under desperation I was looking for the easy, if not a very expensive solution in getting a better mount. 

Thanks again for your advice everyone.

 

[Sp@ce_d]

Yes, whilst we all go on about the mount being the most important "foundation" of the imaging setup, you'll be faced with getting to grips with guiding at some point anyway. So best to overcome that sooner rather than later with what you have & get the experience under your belt. Its far easier & forgiving to learn with a short FL than a long one! I use my 5 with an Esprit 80 & thats a nice combination. I also modded it with the Rowan belt mod a while back which makes a difference.. sounds nicer than a bag of spanners anyway

 

[Dbswales]

Further to my original post, I've more or less just got out whenever i could to practice with PHD2. I think it's going the right way but seem to have some pretty big corrections going on. I'm using the guiding assistant as Olly recommended and applying the changes the software recommends. I've also used drift alignment as that seems to be working quite well and can get 5 minutes without any trails or star elongation so am really happy with that. 

I'm still using the same scope, camera etc although I have added a light pollution filter to my kit and will be interested to see exactly how much better my initial 1st DSO images of last March look now that the subs will be from 90 seconds to at least 300. 

 

If anyone can maybe explain in laymans terms how I can overcome or improve the results on the screen shot, id be really grateful.