Which Path To Take?

[agthomson]

Hi all!

Around this time last year I was about to take the plunge into Astrophotography. My wife won that argument and we undertook a much-needed re-design of our garden. Now that the expenses for it are all out the way, i'm back to looking at AP. As a background, i own an 8" Dob and Making Every Photon Count. My initial imaging camera is a Sony Alpha 200, and it should suffice from the stills i've taken of the sky (at least initially).

My long-term Plan A was to observe with the Dob, then move to AP by buying an HEQ5 mount or better, and either modifying the drawtube on the Dob focusser or buy a low-profile one to allow an SLR to focus. Guiding would come later. After many a review, starting with an 8" Dob is probably a bad idea, so I started looking for alternatives. Last year, I was all set to buy the Evostar 80ED DS-Pro package that includes the HEQ5 mount, but before I buy it i'd like your advice as I hate wastage in a purchase. I have no real budget in mind, but an unguided set-up cost of £1,500 is around the right ballpark.

Plan A
Am I right to step away from the 8" Dob as a 1st AP scope? Within the budget, all i'd need to do is buy the low-profile focusser @ £119, a bhatinov mask @ £20 and could stretch to a NEQ6 Pro Synscan mount after buying the bars and tube rings. This setup is easily upgraded to guiding and CCD imaging down the line.

Plan B
I think this is my preferred option of buying the Evostar 80ED DS-Pro / HEQ5 package @ £1,200. There would be no additional initial cost, other than possibly a red dot finder. My only concern, from reading reviews is the drawtube holding my SLR. This again is easy to upgrade, and gives me an observing scope and an imaging scope.

Plan C
I could also buy the SW Star Adventurer @ £259. Add in a decent tripod (£200) and ball head (£100) and i'm good to go for under £600. It's likely my SLR and lens assortment will significantly reduce what I can and can't image, so a new camera my have to be included with this purchase (Sony A6000, plus maybe £400 for a reasonable lens). The plus side here is I get a new camera that I can use every day, and don't have a mass of new single-use equipment.

Just looking for advice from people that have any / all of the above setups!

Thanks.

[John78]

I wouldn't look past the much more humbly priced 130PDS, see longest thread in the world in this forum to see it's capabilities.  Since your already owning a reflector this baby one shouldn't pose any technical challenges.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/reflectors/skywatcher-explorer-130p-ds-ota.html

Even if you get a coma corrector it's less than half the price of the 80ED, the baader is the recommended not the sw.

then with the money you save on the 80ED you can add guiding/planetary camera also and other bits and bobs and still come in for < £1.2k

[agthomson]

Thank you for your reply. I had seen that thread, and did consider it. I'm just not sure I want to worry about collimation, as the setup will not stay set up between uses, unless I can find a new storage place for my Dob. Also, there aren't many wide field shots in that thread - how does it perform there? 

I kinda understand the limitations of my selections, I think. 200p Dob I currently own removes wide field from the options, while the SLR only option removes planet and possibly DSO as well, without a decent, large lens. The ED80 removes planetary. 

Is the 130p DS really the new way to go for beginners? Could I get away with an EQ5 mount, or is HEQ5 still the recommended minimum? 

 

[John78]

Well an 80ED is 600mm F7.5 without the reducer/ff and a 130PDS is 650mm F5, even with the reducer (which is more expensive than the 130PDS scope) it's still only F6.37.

Understand the simplicity argument of the 80ED but it's just not as good a piece of imaging apparatus specs wise as the 130PDS.

I set mine up every session on an EQ5, I'm sky limited to 1 min subs where I live because of light pollution so I don't think a HEQ5 is essential, that said I am waiting for a second hand one to come up

How widefield are we talking?  There's loads of wide field shots in that thread in astronomical terms.

[alacant]

Hi. If I were starting again it would be no contest: Plan C. HTH.

[ronin]

Plan B seems the most reasonable option. I used to see a lot of nice images from the people at Sidmouth and in the early times (8 or so years back) they used WO Megrez72's and EQ5's.

Usually it is best to ask what it is that you intend to produce or expect to produce. I see posts where it appears that beating Damiam Peach, Nik Smymanek and Hubble into second place in the first 6 months is taken for granted.

Is the HEQ5+SW80 the final or will there be guiding as well. Equally the mount will handel guiding. weight and electronics, so you can later go down that avenue, if costs allow. Prices start to add up in AP. I generally say that with good polar alignment expect 60 second exposures. guiding will give more but I have no problem using 40-60 seconds with a DSLR/ Keep it "short" owing to sensor heating.

From owning one - have you seen and used an HEQ5? I bought one, then went and bought an EQ5. The HEQ5 is nice but it is big. Actually need to go find all the HEQ5 bits, so I know where they all are. Reason is that if you think "Oh no not that lump again" then you do not go out. Sounds stupid but I did not take my HEQ5 out of the boot of the car for 6 weeks owing to the size - just couldn't face it.

Scope is your choice, 80's are an often used scope and I have a WO 80 refractor. Find it is trouble free - within reason. If you start hanging several KG off it then yes things are not happy.

Mount wise the Skywatchers are capable but I am fed up of the reports of troubles, I am looking to get an iOptron CEM25. Want to hear reports of them first, just in case. My EQ5 and HEQ5 both have just the dual motor option (HEQ5 came like that) and with a DSLR I find it a reasonable setup. But I am not serious at AP.

Not sure about the Star Adventurer option. Nice and small but you are spending money on something that you really do not expect to use eventually. Also I would have said just get a small EQ mount like the iOptron SmartEQ and put the camera on that. The Star Adventurer is ideal for holiday's owing to the size. The SmartEQ is suited only to fairly light weight scopes.

 

[cjdawson]

Why not go for plan A, as this is the cheapest outlay to begin with.  Start cutting your teeth, grabbing images and learning the workflow.  From that setup you'll have a  NEQ6 Pro Synscan mount.  Then over time, you could switch out parts to end up with something that looks like an upgraded Plan B.  Not to mention you'll have all the kit that you have now, to be able to do visual work, whilst your camera hogs all the scope time.

[Demonperformer]

If you are buying a mount, go for the best you can afford - i.e. from the selections offered, the NEQ6. This will give you (i) greater stability, and (ii) room to upgrade your setup, if you subsequently want to, without having to splash out on a new mount.

[Owmuchonomy]

I own or owned 2 of the packages mentioned in your post. Right now I would snap up the 2nd hand SA package for sale on the forum and use your DSLR with lenses. Then go from there.

[graemlourens]

I'd go A or B.

I'm currently on a similar setup as your B-Option except that i have the AZ-EQ6GT and not the EQ6 and on CCD, not DSLR. The ED80 has flaws, but nothing you can not handle. This is my first AP-Scope i bought, and still have it, now it sits in an unattended remote observatory. (link to example images in signature)

I have never used a SW 200P so others can say how easy or difficult its to use for long exposure AP. For sure the ED80 is simple, and you have tons of accessories that fit pretty much out of the box, as well as you have a huge amount of AP'lers that have similar setups that could help you if something just doesn't want to work.

I guess i'd tend to start with Option A, as you already have a scope. Buy a great mount, that you can then use also for other scopes and you can not really do much wrong in my opinion.

Kind regards, Graem

[spillage]

Would you consider buying second hand. You can pick up a used neq6 mount and the 130pds new and get great results for under 1k. You can make your own focusing mask and save yourself £20...

[Marky1973]

Ask a dozen people and get a dozen answers.... :-)

2 hours ago, John78 said:

Understand the simplicity argument of the 80ED but it's just not as good a piece of imaging apparatus specs wise as the 130PDS.

And be careful not to get drawn into pure spec comparisons - both the ED80 and the 130PDS are well-respected scopes that will get you great results if you spend time with them. I have never collimated a scope, but I am pretty sure that it is fairly easy once you get the hang of it, so don't panic about that if you fancy a reflector.

There is also a very long thread on the ED80  that shows just how good that can be as well.

The main question that needs to be answered, I think, is what you are hoping to image. You have mentioned widefield above and, if that is your thing, then maybe option C with a 50mm lens is the way to start fairly cheaply.

If you are more interested in planetary work then you will need a longer FL - something like the 200PDS for example, or an SCT/MAK.

If you fancy a healthy compromise, then the ED80/130PDS might be a better option. And don't count them out of planetary either - you won't be beating Damian Peach, but you can get some images. They will be good for the moon too.

There are advantages and disadvantages to every kind of rig and set-up, but the first thing to do is figure out what your main targets will be - you will not find one rig that does everything, so make sure you get what you need to get you what you want - if that makes sense.

And, as has been said, go as good as you can on the mount as that will save you pain later if you upgrade the scope and equipment to something larger. Once you get into guiding etc etc, the weight on the mount will increase and you will need to make sure it can take it.

But, then again, i am a beginner too, so I could be talking baloney!

Get "Making Every Photon Count" from FLO, that will help answer a lot of questions and get you on the road to imaging!

Good luck, and have fun!

 

 

[agthomson]

Thanks for all the replies! 

So essentially, any of my options would be good, I just need to decide what my main target(s) would be

I'm not expecting world-beating images, and I guess my ideal end-game is DSOs. Planetary would be a plus on the same setup.  

I'll have a think, and a trawl through the classifieds and FLO to see what I can come up with. 

[Marky1973]

Definitely figure out what you want to image! HAve a look here also

http://astronomy.tools/calculators/field_of_view/

To play around with the field of view for various DSOs in different combinations of camera and scope, will help you get an idea of what you can fit in the field of view of your combinations. 

Second-hand is fine too -  got my ED80+Reducer from this site and it was a cracking purchase. NEQ6 was an ex-display model and saved me over £200. If you are not in a rush, bargains do come up!

[MattJenko]

My only concern with plan A is that astrophotography is a pretty hard pastime, and while the 8" will crank out some stunning images, it is not easy and there is an awful lot to get right before anything good comes out. The rig is big and cumbersome and the focal length is long, so tracking accuracy needs to be good, collimation needs to be good, focuser good etc etc. All doable, but for a beginning setup, it is one which will involve a good degree of frustration mixed in. The other plans are a gentler introduction and will get you underway and practicing what is the main aspect of the hobby, which is the processing side. I am not saying don't do plan A, just that if you do it, do it knowing what you are taking on.

[agthomson]

That was my concern with Plan A. It's a decent plan on paper, but everything I read warns against starting with something as cumbersome as an 8" reflector. 

I'll use that FoV resource and see what I prefer. 

[happy-kat]

Use a webcam in your 200p today for planets, you can get away without tracking.

If you went for C then that ball head is very high budget, £15 will get a very weight capable ball head.

Do read up on your camera I can't recall if Sony still eat stars before buying another one.

[agthomson]

The A200 is "reasonable", as the sensor was decent back in the day. Settings-wise it's terrible, and you can't get a fancy shutter release AFAIK, only a button on a cable.

After running the numbers, all without guiding, they all come out fairly even in cost somehow. To modify and use the 200p i'm estimating £1,100 (Coma Corrector, Tube Rings, Dovetail, new focuser, HEQ5) but the FoV on that looks a bit tight for my liking on simple objects such as M45. I think I can discount Option A.

Adding the cost of a 130PDS, removing the cost of the new focuser and reducing the cost of the tube rings and dovetail means the 130PDS variant of this costs the same £1,100.  If the OTA comes with tube rings and as dovetail (isn't clear from FLO) then you can knock £37 off the cost. The FoV of this variant isn't too dissimilar to Option B, and is more to my liking.

Option B costs about £1,350 by the time you add in a Reducer / FF to bring the scope to around the F6.3 mark which is more manageable than the 7.5 standard. Previously I had looked at replacing the ED80 with a faster WOZS71 (F5.9, reducing to F4.7) for about £120 extra, but FLO don't stock this anymore, and I heard a few people comment on build.

Option C costs about £700 if I add in a reasonable 50mm lens, or around £1,100 if I also change the camera to an A6000. This camera seems okay for AP usage.

Why is nothing with AP ever straight forward? 

[Knight of Clear Skies]

Personally, for unguided imaging I'd recommend going down the lens imaging route. Working at shorter focal lengths makes everything easier and faster focal ratios allow good data to be collected in short time periods, an important consideration given the UK weather. Getting results quickly when starting out is good for processing practice and morale.

The ED80 has great potential but isn't terribly well suited to unguided imaging. This is what I got out of one:

For comparison, I got this with my 200mm f2.8 lens, also unguided:

The signal-to-noise ratio in the latter image is many times higher, which has allowed it to be stretched enough for the IFN to show up, and was far easier to process.

Good lenses for AP are available in the £20-£70 range with a little digging around. If you have ambitions to move to guided imaging in the future a sturdy mount such as the HEQ5 would be a good investment.

Hope that's some help, and good luck.

[John78]

HEQ5 £759

130PDS £155

And then you're ready to rock and roll - its all supplied - can get the CC later or if you want it at the same time its this one

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/coma-correctors/baader-mpcc.html

£149

So then £914 or £1063, whilst not ideal the coma is correctable in post processing.  A second hand HEQ5 will set you back £450-500.

[happy-kat]

For imaging night use £30-40 sould get you a nice fast vintage lens, only manaual focus but that's perfect. What I don't know is how open Sony DSLRs are to using adaptor mounts so you can use M42 lenses.

I re checked my thoughts it was earlier Sony models in the A range that did not alow auto noise reduction to be turned off. All good I expect now but you might like to read this.

You may not have pushed your camera over 30 seconds.

link here

[agthomson]

Okay, so more food for thought then! Looks like Option B might also be out (can get similar performance for better price) which leaves me with the slightly modified Option A (drop the new focuser, buy a 130PDS and Coma Corrector) or Option C. With Option C I don't really have a danger of breaching my theoretical 1.5k budget. With Option A standing at about 1k, if my SLR is pants then I need to factor in a new camera, which would be 500 minimum.

The problem with Option C is guiding for longer exposures. Although the Star Adventurer has an autoguider port doesn't it only guide in a single direction making longer exposures a little more pointless (no dec)? Pointless if I advance towards guided and longer exposures?

 

[MattJenko]

A £250 DSLR (modded Canon 450d) and a Star Adventurer with a £50 ebay special 50mm lens. 12 x 2 mins, unguided. Others have pushed theirs for bigger durations and longer focal lengths.

Big, wide fields are one thing though, I do like getting up closer with DSOs, so if I had to choose between the 2, I would go DSO and the HEQ5 route, but there is huge mileage out of a DSLR/StarAdventurer - huge mileage.

[happy-kat]

How light poluted is Perth and or how portable does a rig need to be to get out to a darker site if it is very light polluted.

You can test your camera now, take a 35 second long exposure, how long do you need to wait before you take the next image, if it is 35 seconds then see if you can turn off in camera noise supression (it may be called something else) if you can't your camera will always take twice as long to take one shot to match the exposure of the shot taken if it is in bulb mode as it auto removes noise.

[agthomson]

I'll do that when I get home, working away at present.

I'm ~10 miles north of Perth, so not very polluted at all (small village), with pretty unobstructed views out the back with very few nearby lights.