Telescope fail

[Knighty2112]

52 minutes ago, Fozzie said:

She's a beaut! What serial number is it? Just curious is all as I think you mentioned that no more were available...

I had to give my focuser a tweak.. it was a bit "soft" for my liking, and it rotated too freely, but the odd grab screw adjust here and there and it's a very capably unit.. 

It's a nice set up you've put together.. I keep thinking of ditching the 200p for a startravel 120 or 150 so it's good to see the scale against something I recognise!.

Love my starwave to bits.. hope you will too.. Good luck with you r first light..

ta

Fozzie

My focuser was a little too tight, so I backed it off some. The serial number is 0030, which if correct means not many have been sold world wide, so a very rare beast indeed if they are stopping production of them. 

[Knighty2112]

32 minutes ago, John said:

Looks lovely !

Hope she behaves herself so you give her a permanent home.

(of course it might be a "boy" scope !)

 

Thanks John. Hoping 'she' behaves too. Looking forward to getting first light on Saturn especially tonight if clouds don't interfere.  

[Fozzie]

3 hours ago, Knighty2112 said:

 The serial number is 0030, which if correct means not many have been sold world wide, so a very rare beast indeed if they are stopping production of them. 

 

I'm sending you a pm.. 0030 is not a new scope.

ta

fozzie

[Knighty2112]

22 minutes ago, Fozzie said:

 

I'm sending you a pm.. 0030 is not a new scope.

ta

fozzie

Just read it. I will enquire with Telescope House who will have to contact Altair Astro over it if this is indeed an older telescope masquerading as a new one.

[Fozzie]

Good idea... Maybe @dobbie can remember who he sold on too... I thought maybe @nightfisher but I can't genuinely recall..

Again sorry to be harbinger of doom but you pay for a new scope, it should be a new scope!

Thanks

Fozzie

[Knighty2112]

10 minutes ago, Fozzie said:

Good idea... Maybe @dobbie can remember who he sold on too... I thought maybe @nightfisher but I can't genuinely recall..

Again sorry to be harbinger of doom but you pay for a new scope, it should be a new scope!

Thanks

Fozzie

Exactly. Whilst it is not great news, it does at least show the power of SGL that it is possible to trace the history of this apparently old new scope. I've just double checked the lenses by shining a light into them, and can see plenty of dust between the lenses, and some light marks that you might get on the lens after cleaning them. This is certainly not what I would expect from a new scope. 

[Stu]

This one is turning into a bit of a saga isn't it  Hope you get to a happy conclusion quickly

[Fozzie]

Isn't just....

@DRT I might be wrong but didn't you have "ol number 30" for a while... Or is my memory failing me.. How did end up back with the manufacturer I wonder....?!

[Knighty2112]

8 minutes ago, Fozzie said:

Isn't just....

@DRT I might be wrong but didn't you have "ol number 30" for a while... Or is my memory failing me.. How did end up back with the manufacturer I wonder....?!

Perhaps as a part exchange for a new scope from Altair maybe?

[Knighty2112]

13 minutes ago, Stu said:

This one is turning into a bit of a saga isn't it  Hope you get to a happy conclusion quickly

The way this is heading I'll be only happy if I get a full refund. When I buy a new telescope I expect just that, not to be palmed off with a scope that is 2nd or 3rd hand masquerading as new! 

[DRT]

Yes, I bought it from @nightfisher and sold it to a young man who I met in a service station (on the M62 I think?) in November or December last year. Unfortunately, I seem to have deleted the email exchange I had with the buyer so can't give any more info.

Are we sure these serial numbers are unique and not batch numbers?

[Fozzie]

From the product blurb... Lenses are tested at every stage of production with a unique serial number, which is signed off by the optician in charge of the production run.

I also believe everything I read in the papers! 

Obviously with a pinch ofor salt but they do quote it as a feature... But it's got me wondering...

Ta

Fozzie

[DRT]

1 minute ago, Fozzie said:

From the product blurb... Lenses are tested at every stage of production with a unique serial number, which is signed off by the optician in charge of the production run.

I also believe everything I read in the papers! 

Obviously with a pinch ofor salt but they do quote it as a feature... But it's got me wondering...

Ta

Fozzie

I must say I find it very hard to believe that either Altair Astro or Telescope House would punt out a second hand scope as a replacement for a damaged new one. That just doesn't fit with the good reputation both of those companies have.

[Knighty2112]

15 minutes ago, DRT said:

I must say I find it very hard to believe that either Altair Astro or Telescope House would punt out a second hand scope as a replacement for a damaged new one. That just doesn't fit with the good reputation both of those companies have.

I did think that the serial number was very low when I originally got the scope first off after getting it before it was sent back to get a new focuser. After all with world wide sales I would have assumed that over the time the scope had been available that it would have got well past number 30. To be honest I'm not blaming Telescope House, but currently have no trust with Altair Astro at all.

[John]

I've noticed that only the Altair Starwave version of this scope has a serial number on the objective bezel. The many other branded versions didn't do this. The design has been on the market since 2011.

 

 

 

[Knighty2112]

So the telescope has gone through at least three people (not including somehow getting back to Altair Astro themselves) before it landed on my doorstep? Hmmmnnnn............

[Knighty2112]

5 minutes ago, John said:

I've noticed that only the Altair Starwave version of this scope has a serial number on the objective bezel. The many other branded versions didn't do this. The design has been on the market since 2011.

 

 

 

After 5 years on the market with worldwide sales if my scope was 'new' then that would equate to less than 6 of these telescopes been sold each year on average. If that were actually true then this scope would have been shelved a few years back with lacklustre sales like that! 

[John]

3 minutes ago, Knighty2112 said:

After 5 years on the market with worldwide sales if my scope was 'new' then that would equate to less than 6 of these telescopes been sold each year on average. If that were actually true then this scope would have been shelved a few years back with lacklustre sales like that! 

I tend to agree. I've been reading plenty of reports on these under the various different brandings since they 1st appeared. Pretty much universally good reports too. I imagine there must be lots out there in different parts of the world. The manufacture was by United Optics of Kunming as I understand it. Apparently they will customise some of the external design features for you, if you order enough of them. 

None of which justifies why what you thought was a new scope has turned out not to be so

 

[DRT]

23 minutes ago, Knighty2112 said:

So the telescope has gone through at least three people (not including somehow getting back to Altair Astro themselves) before it landed on my doorstep? Hmmmnnnn............

9 minutes ago, John said:

what you thought was a new scope has turned out not to be so

Are we absolutely sure this is the case? The only evidence that we seem to have is that Fozzie thinks (or thought) that the serial numbers stamped on the front of the objective cell were unique.

I think we need to be careful not to jump to conclusions here as the reputation of two well known and generally well regarded suppliers is in question.

[John]

34 minutes ago, DRT said:

Are we absolutely sure this is the case? The only evidence that we seem to have is that Fozzie thinks (or thought) that the serial numbers stamped on the front of the objective cell were unique.

I think we need to be careful not to jump to conclusions here as the reputation of two well known and generally well regarded suppliers is in question.

Thats a fair point Derek.

 

 

[Knighty2112]

Here is a photo that dobbie on SGL posted in a link in September 2014, showing his 102mm f11 Starwave as serial number 0030;

 

Below is a photo of my 'new' scope with the exact same serial number 0030 below. Note also the amount of dust also between the lenses in the photo, which is far more than expected on any 'new' scope as far as I'm concerned;

 

Now if my scope is a 'new' scope, then Altair Astro are lying in their advertising about each scop having a unique serial number. However, if this was indeed the case and there where multiple number 0030's out there surely because of forums like SGL that some people would have twigged that by now?

Also, fozzies serial number on his scope is 0033, and he's had his 2 years now, so how can I have a newer scope than his that has an older serial number? The evidence seems pretty conclusive in my eyes that Altair Astro acquired this scope back somehow, and have sent it out again as a 'new' scope after I placed my order with Telescope House. Not sure that Telescope House knew any of that, but pretty certain that Altair Astro certainly did! 

[Oddsocks]

Knighty2112

This thread seems to be decending into the realms of "supplier bashing" based on unproved assumptions.

If you look carefully at the lens markings for the serial number on the two images you posted you will see that the spacings between "Sn" and the leading "0" digit are different, they are clearly not the same lens cell.

When I used to work with German and Japanese medical imaging camera lenses they often had a batch or run number stamped on the outer retainer ring, the actual serial number is written by hand using an indelible marker on the side of the cell, you can only find this by removing the dew shield or unscrewing the cell from the tube. Different manufacturers have different methods for marking serial numbers on the lens cell but in general it's the more expensive "Up Market" makes go to the trouble of imprinting unique serial numbers on the outer retainer.

The issue of dust being present in the cell is all too common and can be seen if you look hard enough in many lens cells from different suppliers, lens fabrication is a dirty, dusty business and the Chinese factories are not super-clean, with high levels of atmospheric pollution to deal with and the need to keep costs down they have not invested heavily in clean rooms and filtered air supplies to the same extent that the Japanese, American and European lens manufacturers have, and this is reflected in the price.

The point is the dust will not have a measurable effect on the performance of the telescope.

If you are really unhappy then you should simply return the scope for a refund but you should not be openly accusing a supplier of fraud without proof....

[Fozzie]

Keen eyes by oddsocks here.. There is certainly a difference between the two spacings.. But what does that mean exactly, especially when AA product description specifically states unique serial number and the scope has stamped on it SN. 0030 (or 0033 in my case)..

Could it be as DRT suggests a batching number? If so where's the unique serial number? Why advertise it (costs money) and then hide it, instead leaving a none unique number clearly evident? Could lead to something exactly like this.. (Someone remembering seeing a number before!) 

Maybe the marketing is a tad misleading as individually printing a SN number (I believe they do this on the premium apo scopes they sell too) must be a added cost.

 Maybe they produce a sequencial number per batch starting back at 1 again and going up to 9999 (or what ever is in the run) and this is what we're seeing here. Two SN 0030 but manufactured in 2014 and one in 2016.

They do say you have at least 7 look a likes in the world.

I've not accused TH of any improper actions to add as I know the scope was sold direct from AA.  I've not openly AA of anything either.. But something is misleading as that sn number is not unique..

whether I've jumped the gun on "not a new scope"  is yet to be determined (if i have ill be very happy for knighty and first to put my hand up, but also asking wheres that unique number then???) but I made that point after i recognised what is purported to be a unique serial (SN?) Number being quoted on a new scope and felt it fair for Gus to know after the trouble that it might not be as it seems..  

Either way my advice to Gus was to check it out further before being happy with what is a cracking product, from my experience with it.

I'll be interested to see the answer, hopefully it's a new scope from a new batch with a new sequential number on it and my original concerns, and that of gus are put to be and he can enjoy his new purchase..

Ta

Fozzie

[Knighty2112]

3 hours ago, Oddsocks said:

Knighty2112

This thread seems to be decending into the realms of "supplier bashing" based on unproved assumptions.

If you look carefully at the lens markings for the serial number on the two images you posted you will see that the spacings between "Sn" and the leading "0" digit are different, they are clearly not the same lens cell.

When I used to work with German and Japanese medical imaging camera lenses they often had a batch or run number stamped on the outer retainer ring, the actual serial number is written by hand using an indelible marker on the side of the cell, you can only find this by removing the dew shield or unscrewing the cell from the tube. Different manufacturers have different methods for marking serial numbers on the lens cell but in general it's the more expensive "Up Market" makes go to the trouble of imprinting unique serial numbers on the outer retainer.

The issue of dust being present in the cell is all too common and can be seen if you look hard enough in many lens cells from different suppliers, lens fabrication is a dirty, dusty business and the Chinese factories are not super-clean, with high levels of atmospheric pollution to deal with and the need to keep costs down they have not invested heavily in clean rooms and filtered air supplies to the same extent that the Japanese, American and European lens manufacturers have, and this is reflected in the price.

The point is the dust will not have a measurable effect on the performance of the telescope.

If you are really unhappy then you should simply return the scope for a refund but you should not be openly accusing a supplier of fraud without proof....

Well spotted. There is indeed a difference. I will see what reply I get from Altair Astro as to why the same serial number is used again from another scope that is/was 2 years old. Either way their advertising does state that each telescope has a unique serial number. On the plus side at least there was a few cracks in the clouds last night which allowed a brief look through the scope, which did give me a great view (between the clouds) of M57, and split the double double also extremely easily.

I will email Telescope House later on today and try to get some answer from Altair Astro as to why even though their is a difference in the spacing on the numbering this serial number is the same as from a 2/3 year old telescope.

[Tim]

As mentioned above, we dont allow supplier "bashing" on SGL, but we do welcome open discussion of factual accounts. Please let's not state, infer or assume that any particular party has done anything wilfully untoward at this point, or impute bad motives to anyone.

There is a fair question raised here that now requires an appropriate response so that the community at large is able to better understand what the lens cell markings refer to.

I'm sure the parties involved will be more than happy to supply a statement regarding the anomaly with the cell markings, and it might be appropriate to post them here to remove any doubts from the minds of future readers of the thread regarding the reputations of the telescope and companies involved.

I for one was under the impression that the Sn. numbers were unique, so could do with an explanation too