A grumble for Easter

[scarp15]

With astronomy gear there is "always" some tinkering involved, it doesn't matter if it's a $1 or $10000 item.

And "all" astronomy retailers seems to have a problem mentioning what's you gonna get when you buy for example a refractor, tube rings? A refractor for the astrophotographer where you don't even mention the image circle?

With many things yes, some tinkering is required or at least desirable.

OOUK seem to have nailed it with their current VX range line-up. I recently purchased a VX8L on a dobsonian mount, as a more portable grab and go option to my 14. Quality smooth duel speed focuser, quailty 9 point mirror cell + fan, with no collimation spring issues what so ever and quality 8x50 Right angle finder (I have also added a rigel). The base has a good workable braking system. The only tinkering required was to pad out the inner rim of the primary plastic dust cap with a run of PVC tape to make it firmer. I have added some primary and secondary flocking which is to be expected. For the mirror spec, 1/10PV wave, the cost is not so prohibitive, I managed a 5% discount.

Outside cooling at present. 

[DRT]

Last part ? turn your question around. If you made a plug that can not move round as the mount move the wire will brake down inside and blow the mount board ,may be put a fuse on the board to stop it , £2 up to £4  and so on.

Indeed. But I think the current balance between quality and cost of the accessories sold with Synta scopes has been decided by finance directors rather than telescope or electronic designers. No electronics designer worth his salt would recommend a plug/socket combination for a device that requires a steady and constant supply that wobbles around because the two parts were made by different suppliers to different or imprecise specifications or through poor quality control. I believe that the design principles behind these components will be sound, but somewhere along the line an accountant will have found a way to save a few % by buying some of them from a cheaper source. That approach leads to poor quality and inflated profit rather than driving down cost.

[Baffa]

With many things yes, some tinkering is required or at least desirable.

OOUK seem to have nailed it with their current VX range line-up. I recently purchased a VX8L on a dobsonian mount, as a more portable grab and go option to my 14. Quality smooth duel speed focuser, quailty 9 point mirror cell + fan, with no collimation spring issues what so ever and quality 8x50 Right angle finder (I have also added a rigel). The base has a good workable braking system. The only tinkering required was to pad out the inner rim of the primary plastic dust cap with a run of PVC tape to make it firmer. I have added some primary and secondary flocking which is to be expected. For the mirror spec, 1/10PV wave, the cost is not so prohibitive, I managed a 5% discount.

Outside cooling at present. 

Well, there are some things you had to Fix right out the box

I used to think like this, if they can't even put on a sticker straight they how can I trust them to grind a mirror correct? I really think the dust cap should be able to sit tight without falling out, haha, but, this is astronomy gear and I have adapted and now I can tolerate small errors, hehe.

[scarp15]

Yeah valid point it is / was quite annoying and at least applied to only one, I was expecting this to occur, as my 14" dust caps both kept falling off and were replaced with astrozap covers. With these scopes, it is all pretty much about the mirrors and hilux coatings, though features such as a small footprint and lighter weight to alternatives is attractive. My dust caps on the objectives of my binoculars also keep falling off, once flexed they do snap on OK, but again something to just put up with in a minor kind of way.

[Baffa]

Indeed. But I think the current balance between quality and cost of the accessories sold with Synta scopes has been decided by finance directors rather than telescope or electronic designers. No electronics designer worth his salt would recommend a plug/socket combination for a device that requires a steady and constant supply that wobbles around because the two parts were made by different suppliers to different or imprecise specifications or through poor quality control. I believe that the design principles behind these components will be sound, but somewhere along the line an accountant will have found a way to save a few % by buying some of them from a cheaper source. That approach leads to poor quality and inflated profit rather than driving down cost.

As a production unit you really have to use more than one source to reduce the risk of not getting any components at all. I work with surface mounting and for the most part using several sources of components are no big deal until you have to use different source for plugs and sockets, then it might get interesting.. hehe (Works for the most part, mostly production problems, not functional problems)

But then again, I have no idea why Synta went with this kind of plug, it's cheap, but it's not suited for the task so the idea of using it should be binned. I also have no idea why they make the handsets, which are very exposed to the elements, with toy quality soldering, it's really a mess and I'm actually amazed anything works with this kind of quality. I'm almost honest if I say I can do a better solder with a soldering iron taped to my forehead and then I just roll my face over the PCB, seriously, haha.

[DRT]

That is the biggest part of my grumble, Baffa. Why invest in excellent quality optics, expensive coatings, quality housings for the primary, strong tubes, big steady tripods, mounts with 95% excellent components and then skimp on things like electronics and bolts which in this day and age are as cheap as chips to do well.

Happy Easter

[Alien 13]

The wrong type of connector is common with all types of equipment even audio kit costing 10-100K can still rely on cheap and nasty phono connectors the professionals know better and use the XLR etc, to be honest I cant think of any alternative for mount power that would be more suitable while still retaining the properties for quick release if accidently tripped over in the dark.

The bolt problem would not go away by just fitting a stronger one the extra force available would either strip the mount thread or damage the adjustment lug the fix would then have to be a seperate hardened steel plate fixed by screws to the lug and a threaded steel insert for the mount. The extra material costs for this would be minimal but it could easily add a fair percentage to the manufacturing/assembly costs.

The whole design could of course have been better from the start but thats another story.

Alan

[russ.will]

I for one made a choice simply not to buy Synta stuff unless it was demonstrably much better than anything I could afford at the price. It can be done, even though the thought tends to give people fits of the vapours round these here parts.

It might be cheaper to buy Synta in the short term, but you'll pay for it in time, down time or money for upgrades, one way or another. On the other hand, you can't knock them for driving the entry price of astronomy down.

Russell

[John]

I for one made a choice simply not to buy Synta stuff unless it was demonstrably much better than anything I could afford at the price. It can be done, even though the thought tends to give people fits of the vapours round these here parts.

It might be cheaper to buy Synta in the short term, but you'll pay for it in time, down time or money for upgrades, one way or another. On the other hand, you can't knock them for driving the entry price of astronomy down.

Russell

It think all the mass market brands have such issues Russell. GSO stuff tends to be lower cost than Synta except when it's got Meade branding on it. 

At least forums like SGL can flag up each brands shortcomings and then the punter can make an informed choice with their "eyes open"

[DRT]

It might be cheaper to buy Synta in the short term, but you'll pay for it in time, down time or money for upgrades, one way or another. On the other hand, you can't knock them for driving the entry price of astronomy down.

You could easily replace "Synta" and "astronomy" in that sentence with "Ryanair" and "flying".

I applaud companies that buck the trend and force a market to make its products more accessible to more consumers by being innovative and cutting out the non-essential luxury parts of their product. But once the market has been opened up and the masses have been introduced to a new world their expectations will rise and you have to try harder to keep them interested in your brand.

For quite a few years Ryanair blindly followed their original "no frills" formula only to find that EasyJet, Flybe and others had started adding back some of the frills without hugely increasing cost. The tide is now starting to turn in the consumers' favour in that market and hopefully the same will happen in astronomy sometime soon.

[John]

......The tide is now starting to turn in the consumers' favour in that market and hopefully the same will happen in astronomy sometime soon.

Blimey - after 30+ years in the hobby I've never seen so much choice for the amateur astronomer and across such a wide range of budgets. When I started out you had a choice of 3-4 eyepiece designs and a rather basic 8" newt on an undriven eq mount for around £800 or a 4" achromat refractor for close to a grand. If you could not afford that (like me) it was a "department store" 60mm refractor or a 4.5 reflector plus a few hygens eyepieces on a wobbly mount and that would set you back £250.

While not perfect (as I've mentioned earlier in the thread) I really think the amateur astronomer is pretty well catered for today

We should point out the issues though, as we come across them. It would be nice if that feedback found it's way back to the manufacturers but even if it does not at least a potential purchaser will know what to expect.

[DRT]

Fair point, John. I have only been in the hobby a few years so don't have the rear view mirror that you do.

My point is more about flexibility of what you can buy from any given producer rather than how many producers or core products we can choose from. I am a new consumer today so have to judge these suppliers on what they sell today, not on what they used to sell - and it isn't a good picture. Just because Synta helped open the market to the masses and brought down the price of the hobby doesn't mean they should be able to sell me or anyone else bits of kit that are not fit for purpose. They helped bring the industry out of the 1970s, now they have to move on with the times and stop selling us stuff that falls apart when you look at it.

As said above, I think their core product is excellent, particularly at the price they charge. It is the 5% of bits and bobs that they need to sort out so that we stop getting that sinking feeling when we open the box.

[russ.will]

It think all the mass market brands have such issues Russell. GSO stuff tends to be lower cost than Synta except when it's got Meade branding on it. 

At least forums like SGL can flag up each brands shortcomings and then the punter can make an informed choice with their "eyes open"

Yes they can and it's nice to see a thread opening the eyes of people to Synta build quality and design shortcomings.

Take the humble ED80 - The stock, brain left in a jar so you don't have to think about it, recommendation for a first imaging scope. £350. Except the two I played with, even with just a heavy eyepiece, took a lot of work just to keep the focuser orthogonal and slippage free when pointing near zenith. Sure, you can work around it (eventually) by DIY grinding down the focuser bearing surface and using up a lot of patience in use, but you know the owner is going to start Googling aftermarket focusers pretty quickly. A quick trawl of FLO shows a Steeltrack at £260, or a Moonlight at £340.

Suddenly it's £610-£690 just to reliably hold a decent imaging train or just a heavy EP. £655-745, if you include the case you will probably want.

Or, the recommendation could be the Altair ED80-R which has a hand picked FLP-53/Schott objective (not just the assumption they're all good, which they can't be, but is the norm none-the-less), a faster FR, a machined aluminium OTA (no bent steel here) and a rather decent eight bearing R&P focuser as standard, not to mention an ali flight case included. Price - £549 and the dealer is effectively the manufacturer, guarantees delivered collimation of the scope (they actually check them all before they send them - no user beta testers here) and performs all service in house. It is a, complete, well rounded, professionally backed up and QC'd solution and probably the best entry level imaging scope on the market.

There are only five threads on here where the 80ED-R is even mentioned and on most of those, the mention is ignored in favour of a WO/SW or some such. Sorry, but Synta products get recommended by sheer weight of ownership inertia and because they're cheap. It's the herd mentality of buying what everybody else has got, because they recommend what they have got. Anything outside of that envelope is scary and weird and yet when you look through the images in S@N, S&T and AN, it's always interesting how many aren't done with anything Synta. Are these people being willfully different for the sake of it? I don't think so. There's a whole, non-Synta, world out there and my particular point is, I'd just like to see it even just acknowledged on here, but you get the sense that anybody doing so, is unwilling to stand up to the Synta Massive, that will inevitably weigh in when somebody doesn't see something their way.

On the earlier point; sorry John, which piece of Meade in my signature are you referring to that can be found with a GSO badge? 

Russell

PS. I'm in no way affiliated with Altair and I'm well aware of the shortcomings of my gear!

[John]

......On the earlier point; sorry John, which piece of Meade in my signature are you referring to that can be found with a GSO badge? 

None Russell. I was referring to the Meade Lightbridge 12" that I owned and more obliquely to a Revelation 8" that I also owned. They are made by GSO. All my comments relate to equipment that I have owned as do yours, I assume.

I'm sure the other members here make their recommendations and comments in good faith, based on their experiences.  Seems a shame to used terms such as "herd mentality" and "brain left in a jar" to describe your fellow members. Still I expect you know best.

[lensman57]

Sorry for the moan, but I think this thread highlights a general problem with astro gear that I find incredibly frustrating. Almost all of the scopes I have owned have had components that range from excellent (optics, general construction of OTA, mounts, tripods, etc) to extremely cheap and nasty (focusers, , eyepiece holders, electronic components). I for one would happily pay a few quid more for these devices to ensure all components were of similar quality. What we currently get is akin to putting the brakes from a Model T Ford on a BMW.

The case in point in the thread linked to above is the quality of the handsets and cables - they seem to be universally suspect and prone to faults. Why can't they supply connectors that fit tightly and handsets that don't look and feel like they were accessories to a 1970s gaming console?

Is this Synta's fault for making them or our fault for buying them and then spending a fortune on upgrades and replacements?

Grumble, grumble.

You may find that almost all of the components used in the manufacture of the " hobby " scopes ( Chinese ones ) have been made in just 2 or 3 plants that specialise in making them in China. The so called telescope manufacturer picks from the range depending on the price bracket that the scope is going to be sold at. As an example, take my William Optics Star 71, no sooner that this scope had been introduced none branded versions of the same scope were being offered marketed as Star by some other sellers proving that WO probably choose the item from a line up and rebranded it perhaps with  some " better " quality components. The bespoke items you are after can unfortunately only be found in the premium range of scopes in particular from the boutique US manufacturers.

A.G

[Tim]

Just in case anybody hasn't already got a particular hobby horse they want to flog, I have provided one here.

http://www.clker.com/cliparts/c/3/4/1/123057133679246309johnny_automatic_hobby_horse.svg.hi.png

[DRT]

A new day and the Sun is shining

There will be no grumbling from me today

[Tinker1947]

Its not sunny here, but me DSLR is sort out and its shown as clear for tonight.........    

[russ.will]

A new day and the Sun is shining

There will be no grumbling from me today

Indeed it it is. I may do some white light solar when my legs recover from the morning cycle ride. It's easier with the iOptron, because you can use The Sun as an alignment star..... Ducks and runs for cover....

Russell

[DRT]

There are some great proms today - the Lunt Ha and ST102 (white light) are on the Giro now. Must get some jobs done so the The Boss doesn't grumble when I sit down basking in sunshine with a nice cold beer this afternoon

[Cath]

even the grumbles go in cycles

[Helen]

The sun's shining should I get the solar scope out and risk grumbles that I should be helping tidy the garden 

Helen

[russ.will]

Call it supervising?

Russell

[DRT]

The sun's shining should I get the solar scope out and risk grumbles that I should be helping tidy the garden 

Helen

Yes - two lovely proms today, one of them looks like it is trying to break free.

Shopping - done.

Rubbish to tip - done.

Dog walked - done.

Stella in fridge - done.

The Boss off to her mother's.

Time for some solar observing and a bacon sandwich

[DRT]

Nothing to grumble about here...

:grin: