EQ8: Dec binding or total failure?

[Peter Drew]

There should be no problem these days in making concentric gear wheels, even with a dodgy lathe, if the o/d and the bore are produced at the same setting. Equally, it should be straightforward to pop the gear on to a jig and check it for backlash. Lapping a worm/wormwheel to good mesh from one that was eccentric would be a time consuming and expensive operation. I'm tempted to come out of retirement! 

[barkis]

There should be no problem these days in making concentric gear wheels, even with a dodgy lathe, if the o/d and the bore are produced at the same setting. Equally, it should be straightforward to pop the gear on to a jig and check it for backlash. Lapping a worm/wormwheel to good mesh from one that was eccentric would be a time consuming and expensive operation. I'm tempted to come out of retirement! 

HehHeh!. Might be worth your while Peter.

If you could do a finish that virtually eliminated backlash through 360 deg.

orders might flood in .  

[Dark Matter]

Lat night when I tried the fast slew, both motors stalled which sounds like a power board failure - not getting enough current to slew the motors at high speed (Rate 9) even though we have oodles of power coming into the mount.

So the Eq. head going back to supplier next week for checks and repairs.

Synta have been very helpful because what I'm going through, doesn't apply to ALL  EQ8's. I just happened to get one that slipped through the cracks.

It will get fixed and I suspect its the power board. We will see.

Merry Christmas! 

[wxsatuser]

Seen it all before in other hobbies of mine.

The Chinese have no idea when it comes to QC.

Shame because this looked the business and I was really tempted to part with the cash.

Lets hope it's the odd one or two.

[Ransu]

China has never been focused to make quality, their target is to make money. Chinese are very focused to cut production cots and add profit, if they can find cheaper subcontractor, or add profit by changing to cheaper parts, they dont have problem to do it.

I dont know do synta make these mounts and do they really have own factories, or are they just engineering company controllilg procuct design (copy) and subcontractor chain.

I got my EQ8 at early october and so far it has been work guite well, exept goto accuracy/ alignment with hand controller is poor. I am using C14/Atik 460EX/optec 0,5X combo and imaging area is guite small 17x21 arcmin.

With handcontroller i had great difficulties to get object in imaging field with goto and i am now using eqmod and CdC, and can live with that. I have to say that Goto accuracy with Cgem was better than with EQ8, and Celestron software is lightyear ahead of Skywatcher version.

I would rather use handcontroller with gotos, but now i have to use computer.

It is like lottery with these chinese products, if you want to be sure that you get what you paid for, you have to 3-6X your budget and take different, European or US manufacturer road. (ASA, 10 micron, paramount, astrophysics, Mesu..)

[StuartJPP]

I watched a documentary recently where they interviewed a Chinese manufacturer. The conversation went around quality or more specifically the lack thereof. The Chinese guy replied with "if it wasn't for the west's obsession with getting things manufactured cheaper and cheaper so that they can double their profits every year then the quality wouldn't suffer".

China is used as a subcontractor for manufacturing many items for the west and western based companies as cheaply as possible...who is really to blame for the shoddy quality?

China for manufacturing it, western companies for their greedy profits or us for accepting them?

I remember when Japan was used to manufacture tat years ago...japscrap as we used to call it (not very politically correct but that was what it was like in those days). Now I'd much prefer something to be made in Japan than most places...

[Tim]

An old rule of supplying products is;

Cheap, Fast, Good.

Choose any two...............

[ollypenrice]

Is £3.3K cheap, though?

And can I have 'good' and 'cheap' as my two out of three? I don't need 'fast.' Siderreal rate will do me fine!!   

No, you're right, of course.

Olly

[Earl]

All i want is "Works".

[Naemeth]

Is £3.3K cheap, though?

And can I have 'good' and 'cheap' as my two out of three? I don't need 'fast.' Siderreal rate will do me fine!!   

No, you're right, of course.

Olly

It's cheaper than the alternatives (Mesu, 10Micron etc.), but when there are problems like this, isn't it worth paying that extra for complete confidence in what you're getting?

[StarryEyed]

Is £3.3K cheap, though?

And can I have 'good' and 'cheap' as my two out of three? I don't need 'fast.' Siderreal rate will do me fine!!   

No, you're right, of course.

Olly

There is the AP 1100 which is a ringer for the EQ8 seems to have worked out all the problems! I guess there is no such thing as a bargin the big question why wont synta take AP business model and apply it. Even if the price went up 50% with 90% of the AP performance people would still buy them.

I lived and worked in the far east for a couple of years and my wife is Chineese. They typically are driven by profit and nothing else. They then strive for the quality products that come out of the west. Trying to get quality to the top of the list is a hard task and typically companies that have achived this in china have brought in experience from else where in the world.

If you want something that looks sounds like a AP then China will make it. If you want it to work like a AP then they generally dont see the point of doing this. Same goes for a Rolex or an omega or a whole list of things. My wife says to me I must be mad to buy anything made in china.

[JamesF]

I watched a documentary recently where they interviewed a Chinese manufacturer. The conversation went around quality or more specifically the lack thereof. The Chinese guy replied with "if it wasn't for the west's obsession with getting things manufactured cheaper and cheaper so that they can double their profits every year then the quality wouldn't suffer".

China is used as a subcontractor for manufacturing many items for the west and western based companies as cheaply as possible...who is really to blame for the shoddy quality?

China for manufacturing it, western companies for their greedy profits or us for accepting them?

I think this is the nub of it.  The Chinese can and do produce quality products, but perhaps when an item is to be built to a specific price there is a failure to take the cost in terms of quality control and failure rate into account by both manufacturer and purchaser.  In a market where quality is very much secondary to price we shouldn't really be surprised.

James

[Bubbles82]

I was really looking forward to clicking the buy button for an eq8 in the new year but will hold off now. I have been caught out with many things that have been just launched before and I can assure u that this sort of thing is getting more and more frequent all over manufacturing. I have been fortunate enough to be able to buy 5 brand new cars in my 13 years of driving and can tell you that they have all had to go back for many stupid problems that should have never made it through QC ( ex car technician) and one spent more time in the workshop than on my drive. Another issue that is cropping up very consistently is awful customer service, for example I recently purchased from a well known hi street catalogue type shop £675, they took the money and 18 days later and 1 day before delivery was due rang me and told me that it wouldn't be delivered till January ,then when I asked for my money back I was told I would have to wait 5 days for a refund. I then emailed to complain and was told that they can cancel when they want and I should contact trading standards if I wasn't happy . This constant failure to produce fit for purpose goods or good customer service is getting so common that it's now the norm and just accepted by a lot of people. I will watch with hope that skywatcher step up and address any issues that come with the launch and I will keep my £'s set aside for a new mount later in 2014 possibly something else if they are still having troubles.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[BlueAstra]

Its a real shame. I too was about to push the button on an EQ8, but now I'll wait and see and consider the alternatives. I've been bitten too many times by astro gear to buy something in the hope I'll get a 'good' one. SW had everything going for it with this mount, but seems to have forgotton the basics to get the price down. I would have gladly paid a bit more for guaranteed quality.

[Stu_2011]

I watched a documentary recently where they interviewed a Chinese manufacturer. The conversation went around quality or more specifically the lack thereof. The Chinese guy replied with "if it wasn't for the west's obsession with getting things manufactured cheaper and cheaper so that they can double their profits every year then the quality wouldn't suffer".

China is used as a subcontractor for manufacturing many items for the west and western based companies as cheaply as possible...who is really to blame for the shoddy quality?

China for manufacturing it, western companies for their greedy profits or us for accepting them?

I remember when Japan was used to manufacture tat years ago...japscrap as we used to call it (not very politically correct but that was what it was like in those days). Now I'd much prefer something to be made in Japan than most places...

I work with Chinese companies on mechanical / optical systems all the time and it's really quite simple I find. If you find the right companies and they have the right incentives and controls then they can make exceptional stuff, really good.

Where things fall apart is when Chinese companies get pushed for improved profits or they are not controlled properly.

I'm having problems with my Esprit 80 at the moment, optically it's great but silly quality control issues has let it down, I will get sorted I'm sure but it's frustrating.

Thanks

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[astronymonkey]

This suprises me as this mount had such a good pre launch campaign it seemed as if they were onto a winner. For something that relies so heavily on gearing its a shame that they would cut costs to such an extent tomsay they cant gaurantee the accuracy needed and decided not to use a spring loaded mechanism that would have helped remedy some of the issues.

this isnt a cheap mount but to come up with issues that another £25 of accurate machining and quality control would have ironed out is a real shame. I wonder how much it would cost to have an batch of accurately machined and matched worms and cogs to be made but if it isn't resolved then im sure this may be a money spinner for someone in the future.

I hope skywatcher do the right thing and produce a fix for this that allows the mount to live up to expectations.

Cheers

[Dark Matter]

To all that have responded to my EQ8 woes and suggestions, a big thank you! Not every EQ8 is bad.

How many flash cars have you seen or heard of that have been recalled for some minor mechanical or electrical fault? Not every car is bad. And telescope mounts are no different.

Would we put down a Leica DSLR, a Ferrari, or in our case, a Paramount ME or an AP 1200 an ASA, some other top-end mount or even an EQ8 if it had a fault..? It might raise an eyebrow or two, but we'd still but them. 

Synta make damn good gear and I for one, will continue to buy and use their products with pride even though I just happened to catch a fish with a few barbs on it.

As to my dilemma, it seems more like a power board failure, as this 'jamming or stalling only happens at Rate 9, as all other speeds are good, because I can slew the Dec and RA a full 360 at Rate 8, without the slightest glitch. Had I'd been able to select a GOTO rate other than 9, I'd be Ok, but it's Rate 9 that is causing the problem, which make me think its a voltage problem even though I have 13.8VDC 5Amp power to the mount.

Re this, I've suggested to SW engineers to allow the user to select a GOTO slew rate other than 9 in a future Skyscan firmware. Whether they take this suggestion remains to be seen, as some other mounts G11 and Titan 50 have this. Fast slews using worm and wheel will eventually wear away or burn out a motor. So a slower slew rate would put less strain on motors and gears. No one speeds along the highway in low gear, eh?

As a mount designer and maker for may decades, it wasn't the sheer size, its name, its fancy looks, its maker or where it was made that sold the mount, but by its end-user performance, as I lived by two motto's '..A tree is only as strong as its roots are deep...' and '. buy (or build ) your last mount (and or telescope) first.

When a bloke asked for amount, I'd ask him what does he want to swing on it - weight of scope and cameras?, Is it for AP or visual? it is to be portable or permanent? Does he want dual axis drives, what size of RA wheel and slew speeds, etc.. This would create a customer to rethink or he would say:  ".. Yep, that (or this) is what I want. Please build it..". Months later he gets a mount fit for ESO.. lol..

Rest assured, Synta will always be there to assist and help those who help themselves. I'll report back when we have found and fixed my EQ8 fault.

Clear skies to all of us in 2014.

James

[ollypenrice]

I'm not feeling quite so charitable. Somebody knew perfectly well that the mount I received was tight on one side and very slack on the other. They still sent it out, wasting my time, the dealer's time and a considerable cost in transportation. The answer you received amounts to a dual confession. They can't get the wheels consitently accurate and they should have spring loaded them but didn't. 

The backlash in both my EQ6 mounts is a fraction of that seen on one side ot the EQ8. Somebody knew this when they sent it out. Not good.

Somebody makes QC decisions at Skywatcher. They need to wake up. 

Olly

PS, Three courteous emails sent, no replies to date. You did better on that score.

[Tim]

Great post James, and good to hear the voice of reason amongst the gaggle of stereotyping!!!

[Zakalwe]

James,

Great post.

A couple of posts on the Ice in Space forum made me think of this discussion.

Here's how AstroPhysics adjust the meshing on their wormwheels.

With the application of a "persuader"

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showpost.php?p=1043975&postcount=5

And this one:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=115472

which is about a Paramount MX mount

The 2 threaded rods on either side of the cam stop adjuster are touchy.
They need to be just right as too tight and you get stalls and too loose and you get slippage.

As I recall SB says 2.25 to 2.5 turns back from fully screwed in is the right setting.

I adjusted the cam but still got slippage occurring. When I adjusted these it was fine. It took a few goes as at first I got stalls so backed it off a bit. Not too much or you get slippage. So a bit of trial and error there.

So even the top end mounts have some "issues"

[Tim]

I love that bit about the delicate adjustment right before it advises whacking it with a hammer

[narrowbandpaul]

Well for £3k you would expect a bit of QC to ensure that the mount was fit for purpose. In Olly's and a few other cases anyway this hasn't happened. For the money they charge it should have been.

Paul

[lardy]

I'm in The Olly camp with this one ... A mid range mount designed for AP (that costs the price of a good second hand car) that has excessive backlash due to the worm wheel being eccentric and was shipped from the factory with this problem?

I didn't go down the EQ8 route ... I did think about it and spoke to FLO. but finally decided to get a replacement CGE Pro. Made at the same factory as the EQ8? but has matching lapped wheels/worms and has sprung loaded RA and DEC.

Synta can do it. but chose not to for reasons of cost.

I would be spitting tacks if it was me, and No .. I would not except the fix of slowing down the slew speed, it still has excessive backlash, its not gone away!

As for the cars .... buy a new car and find out it makes a horrible racket while in 6th gear ... why not drive around in 5th gear? would you except that answer as a manufacture fix ... I think not.

[ollypenrice]

Just to be clear, I'm not on a rant here and haven't been at any point in the discussion. Nor do I do racial or nationalistic stereotyping, something I've fought against, hard, for a professional lifetime. I know I haven't been accused of the above, but I'm determined to be clear. 

Olly

[Zakalwe]

I love that bit about the delicate adjustment right before it advises whacking it with a hammer

It it moves and it shouldn't- Duck tape

It it doesn't move and it should: penetrating oil and a big hammer