EQ8: Dec binding or total failure?

[Stu_2011]

Agreed, there's no way an eccentric gear should have ever been put in a finished product.......that's not bad QC that's just contempt for your customers.

Sorry SW this is a big fail.

People get things wrong sometimes - after all Perkin Elmer made a pretty big ($1.5bn!) error with the Hubble mirror didn't they??

The real interest for me in this whole saga will come from the way that Skywatcher deal with this over the next few weeks. It looks like an error in manufacturing has been made and this needs to be sorted.

Chinese companies can make world class stuff if they want to so the error can be sorted. If you go to the right suppliers then the days when China couldn't compete with the likes of Germany or Japan for quality manufacturing are long gone. It all comes down to cost and unfortunately Western companies tends to push for lower and lower prices and this tends to come at the cost of quality in my view (and I spend a lot of time in a China working on this sort of issue).

If Skywatcher don't do anything then yes this will show contempt for customers but I'm hoping it will get sorted. Hopefully 12 months down the line most people will be singing the praises of the mount.

Thanks

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[FLO]

I have been away a few days over Christmas visiting family so It'll take me a while to catch up but I am surprised at all the negative comments 

Dark Matter seems a decent sort so I am confident he will soon arrange a solution with his supplier. And, unless I have missed something, his experience is unusual. The majority of EQ8 mounts continue to perform very well indeed. 

Steve 

[Dark Matter]

EQ8 will be stripped down this week by a TASCO service technician in Sydney to see what this 'binding or 'jamming' is in the RA and Dec axis.

I hope is just the power board but then, if they find that the Dec and RA drive wheels are off centre to their shafts, my guess is, Synta will just send a new EQ8 head that has been thoroughly tested to be correct.

I know there's a God and he loves EQ8 owners!     I'll post the findings here, so stay tuned....!

[FLO]

Excellent 

[stephen_usher]

By the way Steve (FLO), my EQ8 has just started showing indications of binding in the Dec.

As I was parking it on Saturday night it started squeaking rhythmically (as the worm gear turned)!

I was wondering about whether I should try to adjust the worm gear mesh myself or not. (i.e. try to very, very slightly move it away from the Dec gear.)

[libraryman]

I'm sure that no one would advise adjusting the worm mesh whilst in warranty, however there is a way to check for binding without adjusting things.

You can remove the plastic cover over the dec worm block and gently turn the worm coupling with your finger and thumb, if you have any tight spots it will show there as stiffness.

I would assume that your warranty would be safe just carrying out a test such as this.

Ray 

[FLO]

By the way Steve (FLO), my EQ8 has just started showing indications of binding in the Dec.

As I was parking it on Saturday night it started squeaking rhythmically (as the worm gear turned)!

I was wondering about whether I should try to adjust the worm gear mesh myself or not. (i.e. try to very, very slightly move it away from the Dec gear.)

If you are 100% confident then we don't mind you tuning your mount and it won't affect your warranty but I would prefer you to email us describing the symptoms so we can seek advice from Skywatcher first. Please  

[libraryman]

If you do decide to adjust then follow this advice, i received this from someone who has already adjusted the backlash successfully, it worked for me!

The only additional comment that i would add is that when the 4 securing pins are loosened, the worm free play disappeared on my mount, re tightening it back up  reinstated the free play, i then adjusted the centre screw a very tiny amount and re tightened everything up and tested. 

See it like this: the worm block is resting on the center screw the two outside screws tighten the block onto the center screw. If you want to lower the block for less backlash you have to loosen the two outside screws and adjust the center screw counter clockwise a little an tighten the outside screws again. Do not adjust the center screw if the outside screws are tightened, or you may damage the center screw.

[Paul M]

This is an excellent thread.

I don't own an EQ8. I did become the proud owner of an EQ6 Pro a couple of months back and think it's a lot of mount for the money. I may even belt mod it

As I returned to astronomy the EQ8 was being eagerly awaited and dreamed of by many. I actually thought about holding off my new scope purchase and going BIG when the EQ8 arrived.

Looking at what I got for under £1000 in the EQ6 made me think that the EQ8 would be a game changer. The only mount you'll ever need!

I'm feeling the disappointment of some of the early adopters and wondering what the extra £2k (over the cost of the EQ6) actually got spent on? Just greater bulk and better designed DEC axis adjustment?

It's all down to SW now to see what they do for the far flung customers who have been disappointed.

I hope it goes well guys.

[stephen_usher]

Hmm... No squeaking tonight!

Sounds like it's more a problem with lubrication than tightness of the worm gear.

[Tinker1947]

The quality of the grease used by the Chinese in the passed has been call into question and this is not restricted to astronomy equipment ....

[FLO]

Hmm... No squeaking tonight!

Sounds like it's more a problem with lubrication than tightness of the worm gear.

That is good to hear

Following your email we asked Skywatcher (Synta) for instructions on adjusting the worm gear meshing. We figured even if yours didn't require adjustment we are bound to come across one some day that does and it is good to be prepared. Skywatcher were fantastic. We received today a new pdf document with 31 photos and step-by-step instructions detailing every stage. It is only the first draft and is intended as a manual for service staff so I don't think I am allowed to post it. Fortunately there really isn't any need to because here in the UK only one EQ8 has been returned (Olly has already received a full refund) so all things considered it is proving very reliable. 

HTH

Steve 

[Zakalwe]

That is good to hear

Following your email we asked Skywatcher (Synta) for instructions on adjusting the worm gear meshing. We figured even if yours didn't require adjustment we are bound to come across one some day that does and it is good to be prepared. Skywatcher were fantastic. We received today a new pdf document with 31 photos and step-by-step instructions detailing every stage. It is only the first draft and is intended as a manual for service staff so I don't think I am allowed to post it. Fortunately there really isn't any need to because here in the UK only one EQ8 has been returned (Olly has already received a full refund). All things considered it is proving very reliable. 

HTH

Steve 

Is it the one with the old style worm block covers?  If so, then its freely available on the EQ8 Yahoo group.

[FLO]

Is it the one with the old style worm block covers?  If so, then its freely available on the EQ8 Yahoo group.

Isn't the internet wonderful

I don't know if it is the same Steve, I haven't seen the one on the Yahoo group. The manual we have received has only just been translated, apparently. We have been asked to check for typos. 

If it is already out there then so-be-it but I must be careful. The EQ8 is a game changer so is facing intense scrutiny from some competing manufacturers, their dealers, and even some of their customers, who would rather the game were not changed. One or two are desperately searching the internet for faulty EQ8 mounts in the hope of finding similarities that can be presented in a way that might harm it's reputation. They will of course find some. But the same is true of any mount, from any manufacturer. I don't want to fuel their fire by posting a guide to adjusting backlash. EQ8 owners should not need to adjust their mount's backlash and I am not recommending they do. If someone does have an EQ8 mount that needs adjustment they should contact their dealer

HTH, 

Steve 

[Zakalwe]

Isn't the internet wonderful

I don't know if it is the same Steve, I haven't seen the one on the Yahoo group. The manual we have received has only just been translated, apparently. We have been asked to check for typos. 

If it is already out there then so-be-it but I must be careful. The EQ8 is a game changer so is facing intense scrutiny from some competing manufacturers, their dealers, and even some of their customers, who would rather the game were not changed. One or two are desperately searching the internet for faulty EQ8 mounts in the hope of finding similarities that can be presented in a way that might harm it's reputation. They will of course find some. But the same is true of any mount, from any manufacturer. I don't want to fuel their fire by posting a guide to adjusting backlash. EQ8 owners should not need to adjust their mount's backlash and I am not recommending they do. If someone does have an EQ8 mount that needs adjustment they should contact their dealer

HTH, 

Steve 

That's sounds sensible. The process doesn't look that straightforward and the document (assuming it's the same one) highlights that there are a couple of screws that are Loctited/glued at the factory and there is a potential for damaging them.

[FLO]

So far we have not needed to adjust an EQ8 mount, but there is bound to be a first  

[stephen_usher]

Actually, I don't mind a manufacturer who deals with problem equipment well. It's the true test.

Now, if Sky-Watcher were to contract a high quality hardware maintenance and repair company to do efficient and hassle free warranty and out of warranty repairs and support I would go for their equipment any day, even if they had a slightly higher DOA rate than another manufacturer. It's the long-term after-sales support which matters, especially as equipment gets older.

Sky-Watcher could have an edge if they did this, especially as the others don't in the UK.

Meade have the parent company of Telescope House, but they won't deal with end users for repairs, even if the dealer's disappeared.

Celestron doesn't seem to have any UK warranty or repair centre in the UK or Europe. If they have then it's well hidden. Again, the customer has to deal with his or her dealer, who may just be a box shifter.

[stephen_usher]

P.S. I know the case of Meade from experience as I got a LX90 for my Dad which had some major problems. The dealer didn't want to know and then disappeared off the 'net. Broadhurst and ??? said that I couldn't deal with them directly.

[ollypenrice]

Actually, I don't mind a manufacturer who deals with problem equipment well. It's the true test.

Now, if Sky-Watcher were to contract a high quality hardware maintenance and repair company to do efficient and hassle free warranty and out of warranty repairs and support I would go for their equipment any day, even if they had a slightly higher DOA rate than another manufacturer. It's the long-term after-sales support which matters, especially as equipment gets older.

Sky-Watcher could have an edge if they did this, especially as the others don't in the UK.

Meade have the parent company of Telescope House, but they won't deal with end users for repairs, even if the dealer's disappeared.

Celestron doesn't seem to have any UK warranty or repair centre in the UK or Europe. If they have then it's well hidden. Again, the customer has to deal with his or her dealer, who may just be a box shifter.

This is a good post. The trouble with mounts is that there is often the pretence at point of sale that the mount will just work forever. Nobody makes such a daft claim in respect of cars. With cars, maintenance is taken for granted and built into the sale. There is a maintenance schedule and there are dealers equipped to carry out the necessary maintenance. Is there any equivalence with mounts? Not that I can see, and that includes the lot of them. I can't think of any mount manufacturer who has got their bum into gear to offer this elementary level of service.

It is for us, the customers, to demand a mature response to this evident need. Referring us to the dealer is arrant nonsense. Are the dealers trained and staffed for servicing mounts? Of course not. And I stress, this seems to apply to all of them, from the bottom end to the top. I have no intention of letting myself be branded as a Skywatcher basher in this discussion. I'm not. I had a bad experience but that is not, in itself, of much significance. I'm making a wider point.

Olly

[libraryman]

It is indeed a good discussion, as for my mount, i took the decision to adjust the dec backlash, it was quite easy and I'm so glad that i did, i found it difficult to accurately assess the backlash using the (rock the saddle) method, instead choosing to turn the coupling under the cover.

for the moment i have found that it has eliminated all the issues in dec.

It may be the case that other mounts suffering from similar issues could benefit from proper adjustment, the trouble is that it should have been done from the outset on assembly.

i wont defend sloppy assembly, however it may be the case that some cautious approach has been applied by those assembling the things and may be it's just the results of piece work and poor wages.  

The point made about maintenance etc is valid, however as has been noted in previous posts, it's not at all unusual for owners of new mounts to put hands on work to improve the things post production. 

the real question still relates back to manufacturing quality, as yet mine seems to be holding up despite my initial concerns Re: backlash and eccentricity.

i owned an American produced mount for several years,  that had eccentricity in the dec wheel and the RA wheel  that i could not remove, the yanks are supposed to be better at manufacturing  than the Chinese aren't they?

only time and usage will reveal all.

Ray 

[dmahon]

Olly - after your problem mount did you consider trying a second one to see if you got an unfortunate one-off bad one? All manufacturers make a bad product occaisionally.

[FLO]

The power to change the industry is in your hands people (actually, it's in your wallets, but you know what I mean)

Seriously, if you are not happy with a product then let the manufacturer know. If you are not happy with your dealer then let them know. And if that doesn't work then let whoever appointed them know (here in the UK that's Optical Vision Ltd for Skywatcher, Celestron UK for Celestron and Telescope House for Meade. For other brands the manufacturer probably hasn't appointed a distributer so best to contact them direct). 

@stephen_usher. You make a good point but Celestron, Skywatcher and Meade have appointed UK distributers who can handle the most commonly required repairs, like swopping power boards and adjusting for backlash. It is true they rarely deal direct with the customer, they usually refer you to your retailer. Personally I think that is how it should be and, assuming they appoint only capable retailers, is a model that works well... Most of the time

@Olly. I wasn't pointing a finger at anyone and I fully understand how frustrated you must have felt at receiving a faulty mount. I also respect your decision to accept a refund  

And this isn't aimed at you either but isn't it interesting that an Australian is handling his faulty mount calmly and without drama while us Brits (renowned for our stoical nature and stiff upper lip) are getting hot under the collar, on his behalf. 

Enjoy the weekend everyone 

Steve 

[ollypenrice]

Olly - after your problem mount did you consider trying a second one to see if you got an unfortunate one-off bad one? All manufacturers make a bad product occaisionally.

I did, yes. The problem is that just returning something this size is an incredible amount of work and I decided not to risk it twice, especially since the Dec worm issue is not a one-off even if others are fine. Receiving, unpacking, assembling, installing, testing, dismantling, repacking and storing something this size represents about five days' work by the time you've removed and re-installed the original mount. A working week lost maybe informs my decision not to persue it this time.  It is pretty dispiriting and I couldn't face the thought of going through it again. It is also my way of giving the manufacturer a poke with regard to QC.

Olly

[SnakeyJ]

Ray's points on dealer maintenance are very fair, particularly with regard to main assemblies. With this size of investment you need some assurance that there will be a supply of replacement parts over the product lifespan, particularly those that are prone to wear or failure.

However, the level of precision is somewhat subjective - and I'm sure that many owners will spend days and weeks tinkering and retesting to get the very best performance from their kit. Commercially I think this degree of tuning would not be possible and the target is rather a subjective judgement. Even if a service centre could tweak performance over many hours, there's a good chance their hard work could be wasted by heavy handed couriers. Also the adjustments will be affected by unique payloads.

Not to say a minimum demonstrable standard is not achievable - but I would think this would have to be a minimum and would not flatter the manufacturers..

typed on my mobile with Tapatalk

[Zakalwe]

This is a good post. The trouble with mounts is that there is often the pretence at point of sale that the mount will just work forever. Nobody makes such a daft claim in respect of cars. With cars, maintenance is taken for granted and built into the sale. There is a maintenance schedule and there are dealers equipped to carry out the necessary maintenance. Is there any equivalence with mounts? Not that I can see, and that includes the lot of them. I can't think of any mount manufacturer who has got their bum into gear to offer this elementary level of service.

It is for us, the customers, to demand a mature response to this evident need. Referring us to the dealer is arrant nonsense. Are the dealers trained and staffed for servicing mounts? Of course not. And I stress, this seems to apply to all of them, from the bottom end to the top. I have no intention of letting myself be branded as a Skywatcher basher in this discussion. I'm not. I had a bad experience but that is not, in itself, of much significance. I'm making a wider point.

Olly

Its not really feasible though, is it? Car manufacturers are MASSIVE in comparison to astro-kit manufacturers. They have dealers in just about every town in the land. Plus there are literally thousands of small independent garages all over the country. Getting a car serviced is no problem*. Try doing the same with an astro mount. Is anyone really going to accept dismantling it, packaging it, arranging a courier (at your expense), having no mount for a period of time (and if you are in the UK you can guarantee that the sky will be crystal clear during this period), and then having to trot back and forth to the courier depot when the inevitable red card appears through the letterbox?

I do agree though, that there should be some sort of maintenance schedule, though that would have to be based on hours of use.

*Though I should explain that to Peugeot- they've had my 13 month old 508 back 3 times to do a software upgrade. Their excuse? Their Internet connection is too slow and if it fails the car becomes undriveable!