250pds/300pds - first scope - few opinions please :)

[gpt]

Hi All,

First post,

Several years ago i bought my old man an orion xt8 dob for a small fortune and after finally using it a little myself I've got the bug to get something of my own, especially since the prices seem to have come down considerably vs aperture, especially second hand! My budget is about 750

In a big believed in getting things right first time. Don't want to buy starter stuff to not be happy in 6-12 months. So.... General rule seems to be get the best aperture you can afford but is also practical. For my needs i had settled on the skywatcher 300p but then decided i would really like to be able to catalogue my visual delights and already have a canon 450d SLR so i looked at the 300pds. Unfortunately i have a few issues from a lot of research. First is the weight vs mount. It appears the maximum load is reached on a neq6 even before putting the camera on and going for the next lvl of mount is going to cost a fortune. So i have turned my attention reluctantly to the 250pds ( no offence to the owners of these great scopes, from what i have read)

I just want a few opinions, something to re assure me. I love seeing planets but really want to explore the galaxy with some dso's, galaxy's etc, with the hope of seeing some galaxy rings and maybe even a little colour.

What would you do in my situation? Do i needs to save a little more or is it not that bigger difference between the models? Or am i hoping to see a bit too much for my budget? I've read several posts saying people have seen what i hope to achieve with these Scopes

Any other recommendations on what to buy with these setups would be appreciated

Thanks :-)

Pete

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[Lorne]

I had a 250px on an EQ6 and found it great for visual, the only downside is it tended to act like a sail in the wind and the views bounced around a bit. Not a real problem for me but if you are imaging, it will be an issue.

PS..... welcome to the forum

[gpt]

Thanks for the reply. I had read similar things about the 300pds. So what is then solution? Sturdier heavier mounts and more money? I realise my 750 budget is right anyway but buying second hand and with a little patience I'm hoping it is possible. There's a 300pds on eBay right now...

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[Astro Imp]

You really need to consider if you want to image or to observe visually. The needs of these two branches of the hobby are very different, so have a good think about what you want to do and then come back and get some advice from the knowledgeable people on the forum

[John]

The challenge is that seeing faint objects is best done with large aperture scopes under dark skies but to image them a much smaller aperture scope that is overmounted seems to be the requirement, especially when starting out.

I think combining the two needs is going to cause you headaches and possibly a much larger investment than you anticipate.

[gpt]

Yes that was a fear after all of this reading. So if i was going for the 250pds or 300pds. Does anyone have any experience buying second hand setups? A rough idea of outlay?

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[gpt]

And i am set on photographing what i find astro. As i mentioned before do you think the 10 and 12 inch apertures are enough for what i want to see? I'm sure I've read numerous posts and images of very impressive colourful sights at these apertures

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[gpt]

don't know how i didn't spot this thread earlier but the 250pds with neq6 mount sounds fine here?

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[swamp thing]

Hope you have an obsy planned. A 10" EQ mounted newt is a very tiresome beast to set up every single time you wish to observe.

You will grow very tired of setting it up, quickly.

Astrophotography does not need aperture like this to produce stunning results (if that's what you want). Small fast fracs can do it just as quickly and without anywhere near the aggro of a big newt.

Visually, yes aperture is best, but EQ mounts.........belong in obsys.

BTW you won't see much colour visually. Yes some objects will show a bit, but its subtle. It's nothing like what you've seen in images.

[Russe]

You can't expect a "visual" telescope to be great for imaging and vice versa. Aperture is only really interesting for seeing faint nebula. Focal ratio is interesting only for photography.

Get two scopes! One cheap 2nd hand Newtonian to start out with AP and as big of an aperture as your money can buy for your visual nights.

When taking photos you will destroy your night vision constantly...

[Moonshane]

Unless you have a substantially more expensive mount than your budget, I'd forget trying to mount a large newt on an eq mount. you could buy the same aperture as your dad's scope for maybe £200 used in the form of an 8" dobsonian. this would be good for visual but gather about 2.25x less light compared with a 12" dobsonian so visual views in the 8" will not be as good as they could be with the larger aperture.

with the difference you could then have maybe £500 or so to buy a decent mount perhaps used and use this with your SLR for wide field or tighter imaging. do consider that although I know almost nothing about astro photography, I do know that it can be very costly and take up a lot of time. it's not a case of taking a single image for 30 seconds, it's more like taking tens or hundreds of images of perhaps 10-20 minutes and combining/processing them all.

I am a keen photographer but have no interest in astro imaging as I prefer visual. although with three scopes and a box of televue eyepieces, this is also not a cheap avenue!

[gpt]

Yeah I'm thinking from the advice gathered the previous suggestion of owning two scopes, a sizeable dob and an 80mm refractor for photography may be the way to go

But i want to be able to start with the right kit so forgetting the 250-300pds. I'm now looking towards orion 80ed's or other bargain alternatives.

If anyone has more input I'd be greatful to hear it

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[Amra]

Like others said, while weight is an issue with large newtonians & making it easy to under mount it, the telescope acting like a wind sail is also a issue. I find I have to throw subs away on my sessions, probably because of the wind rather than my polar alignment being of, but I still need to get more experience so I'm making the best of it, but if I had anything larger than a 8" I would prefer it in an observatory!

[Tinker1947]

If you are only imagine for a personal record which is what i do, 10 X 1 Minute subs will do the job a DSLR isn't that heavy when that and may be a Telrad are on the end of the Reflector, a 300PDS will work on a NEQ6 for this type on Image, dropping down to a 250PDS will cost you photon's and as you main use is going to be viewing.....???

[Shibby]

If you are only imagine for a personal record which is what i do, 10 X 1 Minute subs will do the job a DSLR isn't that heavy when that and may be a Telrad are on the end of the Reflector, a 300PDS will work on a NEQ6 for this type on Image, dropping down to a 250PDS will cost you photon's and as you main use is going to be viewing.....???

The only problem is that, once the imaging bug bites, one thing can lead to another! You have done well to not get carried away with imaging, but most of us are not so unwavering! So you have to ask yourself, do you want to compromise? I must say that I think my 150PDS is a good choice as a compromise. Had I more space, though, I'd love to own a large dob + a small refractor.

[Naemeth]

Easiest solution is a small ED/APO refractor and a large dob. A dobsonian mounting is a lot easier to set-up and move around.

While it may not sound like much, the difference between my 130P Heritage (Dob-mounted) and 150 Newtonian (Alt-Az Pier Mounted) is huge. The former can be carried in one trip. The latter needs two - and it needs the OTA to be separated before transport. These are light OTAs (couple of kgs max) and can be very awkward, a larger newtonian will be a lot heavier, and a lot more awkward.

A dob mount also takes up less space than an EQ mount - which actually has quite a large footprint!

[rowan46]

Pretty much along the lines of what others have said. The cheapest solution to getting good views and good photo's is 2 scopes.A second hand dob for your visual and a second hand mount and scope for imaging. unfortunately when budgets are limited those little pennies make us choose and compromise. Your budget astro mount minimum is the celestron cg5gt with a small scope (ed 80 recommended) or this http://www.firstlightoptics.com/reflectors/skywatcher-explorer-130p-ds-ota.html you will need the coma corrector as well for imaging. 130mm will give a decent visual view but nothing like the visual views of a 200mm and above. Netherthelless astrophotography and visual on a small budget with a reasonable chance at success in both I would choose cg5gt and the 130pds. But for astrophotography this is what you need first http://www.firstlightoptics.com/books/making-every-photon-count-steve-richards.html

It tells you what you need and more importantly why. Knowing why gives you the ability to make informed choices and better compromises

[gpt]

Thanks guys as is mentioned I'm trying to be realistic with my Mooney so one scope at a time. I've decided on a refractor rather than a newt for the grab n go ease n there's seems to be more astro photographers using them for many reasons. Theres a lot of 80mm refractors out there but from all of my reading I've settled on the skywatcher equinox 80. There are some bargain triplets out there now but in drawing the line. The equinox 80 is 500 new so in hoping i can maybe find one second hand over the next month or so for £300 ish

Then its working out the best mount for the scope

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[rowan46]

Thanks guys as is mentioned I'm trying to be realistic with my Mooney so one scope at a time. I've decided on a refractor rather than a newt for the grab n go ease n there's seems to be more astro photographers using them for many reasons. Theres a lot of 80mm refractors out there but from all of my reading I've settled on the skywatcher equinox 80. There are some bargain triplets out there now but in drawing the line. The equinox 80 is 500 new so in hoping i can maybe find one second hand over the next month or so for £300 ish

Then its working out the best mount for the scope

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Also look at the evostar ed 80 slightly cheaper and also used by imagers 2nd hand values are a little keener as there are more arround. for the equinox you will need a field flattener for the evostar a flattener / reducer is best. I should add that you should get the best mount that you can afford then the scope that will suit. imaging priority is mount, camera , scope in that order

[swag72]

If you are interested in AP then can I recommend the book 'Making Every Photon Count' that you can find in the book section of the FLO website. It really is an imaging bible and will help you to understand what you are doing and why and how to make things better.

I can not speak from a visual pov, I've looked through a scope less than a dozen times! AP wise, a short 80ED type refractor is a good way to go. Couple that up with an HEQ5 mount and you have a good starting combination. My HEQ5 is doing me proud and working far outside what I would expect for the minimum budget mount generally recommended for AP. It will take me many thousands of pounds to improve on my mount.

With DSO AP you generally want to work towards long exposures so for that you will want to be able to consider some form of guiding setup further down the line. Also a flattener for your scope as the DSLR is a big old chip. Of course, it doesn't all have to be purchased in one go!

[gpt]

I should add i already own a canon 450d I'm intending to use :-)

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[Prador]

One thing I can assure you from personal experience the 250 is a bit of a beast to move on and off an equatorial mount. It is said everywhere on this site that the best scope to own is one that gets used

My ED80 is out all the time and the 250pds tends to stay in its rather large shipping box for protection.

In hindsight my needs would have been better served with a light but accurate eq mount for the ED scope and a big dob for visual.

Problem is that if you want to touch on both disciplines be prepared to start saving now. I have what I would consider to be the basics of a visual and photo set-up and I am upward of £3k easy.