Will the Aliens hear our Radio and TV broadcasts ?

[Ainsley]

Actually thats a really good point about intelligence. Also worth considering is the whole communication thing. Its often said Dolphins are intelligent, but for the last 50 years we have still been unable to communicate with them.

However, there are likely to be some common points to begin with. Anyone / thing that can look out to the stars and then construct a device to listen to them or broadcast to them will have a similar understanding of physics to us, even if they communicate differently and have different backgrounds.

I also think that curiosity goes hand in hand with intelligence, thats one of the ways you begin to understand then master your changing environment. Which is precisly how civilisations advance. Give any group enough of a change and the more able survive, the less able die out.

So its likley any Alien thats intelligent enough to hear us will also be driven by curiosity to look for us. Unlike the Dolphins, who seem to be content with chasing fish and doing backflips, since they have completely mastered their environment. There is not enough change / threat to it to cause further development.

[Cath]

I guess the only alien life forms we'll have any chance of communicating with are those who have taken a similar path to us - becoming tech loving/obsessed beings.

Maybe all surviving civilisations eventually find a happiness in their existence or something else we have yet to imagine that means the need to contact/find other similar far off life forms becomes insignificant and/or meaningless in the grand scheme of things?

We simply know absolutely nothing (frustratingly at times) about what path life tends to take given long enough, we've only really just woke up to our own existence as it were, never mind what is out there in the universe.

Maybe Dolphins (and such like) have found their happiness and so become content enough not to have a need to communicate with us?

Seems to me the birds spend all day chatting with each other, some of them seem to have a speech ability very much like our own, the doplins too but at a much higher pitch.

We can only ever really guess at what's really going on out there. If only we weren't all so far part from each other. How cool would it have been if we had been in a solar system that had 2 (or more) complicated life bearing planets?

[Ainsley]

Any advance in a civilisation will be caused by change, normally a change thats harsh enough to prompt desperate search for an eaiser life.

All life is likely to be lazy (efficent with its expenditure of energy), so its only dirven to change / improvement due to lack of rescourses. Or competition for the rescourses with others.

Look at us, we made significant advances due to farming, then the industrial revolution and commercial competition. Not to mention countless wars. Dont forget, we only landed on the Moon due to the Cold War.

The strongest survive, the winners suvive, those who can adapt to change survive. So basically any intelligent lfe form will have become that way due to a constant battle to secure rescources and adapt to change.

Those lifeforms that have not had change as a catalyst have not advanced any further than that required to just get by.

So I do think if we are "visited" it will be by a life form thats come from a competitive background full of struggle for rescources and wars and difficulties. Thats the only catalist for change that will lead to advancement.

[nameunknown]

I seem to recall the first really powerful transmissions were from the "primitive" 3cm radar installations in WW2. If someone picks those up and looks in their recordings, then - according to plot of Carl Sagan's "Contact" the next thing they would find is Adolf opening the Munich Olympics in a very early TV broadcast.

Of course, if then then decide to visit earth via hyperspace or whatever, they'll arrive on the fringes of the solar system (one assumes aliens are very cautious) only to find Carl's other bright idea of sending out a spacecraft with a picture of a naked guy with his arm raised in a very characteristic [removed word] salute. Of course from this our aliens can work out there was a war, work out who must have won :shocked: and warm up the "Turn any star into a nova from a safe distance" device.....

Nice one Carl!

P

[Ainsley]

Ive also thought about the signal strength - doesnt a Nuclear bomb generate massive radio signal ?

[mallorcasaint]

A bit nearer, I think. 4.24 LY or so? Not that it matters much.

The real issue, I think, is that intelligence can mean something entirely different from what we think it means. Hollywood loves to make little creatures just like us but with pointed ears and green skin - who might have some notion of what World War Two was all about. However, an entirely different kind of intelligence might not interact with our kind of intelligence at all. Genetically my dog and I parted company no more than a few seconds ago in the greater scheme of things, having shared a common ancestor. We are almost the same creature. Four legs, two eyes, two ears, a skeleton with broadly the same structure and pentadactyl limbs. But what does she know of World War Two? And what is worth knowing about it, for that matter? Apart from the fact that humans orchestrated it with their phenomenal intelligence.

Olly

Yes. If you read the thread you'll see I corrected my typo. Was thinking about something else at the time.

[JO90]

I believe Martians watch East Enders.

[kirkster501]

Even though the aliens may not be able to decipher out signals, when they looked into their sky, at our sun, I sure they must be thinking why is that star so bright at the radio end of the specturm as opposed to other stars?

[spurius]

Good artical - poor result thought:

Shostak calculates that Nasa's recent broadcast of Beatles music towards Polaris, the North Star, using a 210ft antenna and 20kW of power, would require any potential aliens to have an antenna seven miles across to be aware of it. To actually receive it as music, this would need to be increased to a 500-mile wide antenna. Polaris is 430 light years away.

So basically we are not likely to be heard or seen.

Thats a shame.

Well no. Any civilisation wanting to expand tends to have malicious intent to other civilisations. Think Nazis, Romans etc. Why would aliens treat us any better? They would most likely want to destroy us or take advantage of us in some way. Would be wicked to detect alien signals of some sort tho.

[Krys]

Well no. Any civilisation wanting to expand tends to have malicious intent to other civilisations. Think Nazis, Romans etc. Why would aliens treat us any better? They would most likely want to destroy us or take advantage of us in some way. Would be wicked to detect alien signals of some sort tho.

Their ability to receive and respond to a signal would not necessarily indicate expansionist tendencies, or ability. after all we can detect signals from places we could never reach within the foreseeable future. Indeed, we demonstrate neither strong interest nor ability in interplanetary travel, let alone interstellar, despite our somewhat half-hearted scanning of the skies for signals and broadcasting our own.

[Tiki]

I seem to recall the first really powerful transmissions were from the "primitive" 3cm radar installations in WW2. If someone picks those up and looks in their recordings, then - according to plot of Carl Sagan's "Contact" the next thing they would find is Adolf opening the Munich Olympics in a very early TV broadcast.

These transmissions will have therefore reached only about 6,000 other stars. Couple this with the fleeting nature (probably) of civilization ,huge signal/noise issues for prospective listeners and we can conclude that the likelihood of aliens picking up our transmissions are remote indeed. Almost nil.

[rfdesigner]

Radio listeners in the region of Aldeberan will be tuning in to BBC World Service coverage of WW2. I'm sure the signal will get that far because back then they used thumping great transmitters at various frequencies.

These days, many of our transmissions are more discrete. As the radio spectrum becomes more congested there are far fewer big powerful transmitters.

So rather than have a few broadcasts that were very prominent we now produce more of a low key cackle of digital and analogue signals that are directed to their audience more accurately. Probable less penetrating to interstellar space.

agreed

Also these days the signals themselves resemble white noise (it's the most efficient use of the spectrum) so even if they picked modern signals up they'd have a tough time realising they'd got anything.

So, not only would they need to be near, looking in the right direction and at the right frequency, they've also only got a 60 year or so window.

we're farily safe.

Derek

PS.. they're not transmissions, they're "historical documents"

[Ouroboros]

I've never heard how weak a signal the current SETI projects can detect now. Are they sufficiently sensitive to detect alien domestic broadcasts or only beacon signals intended to notify the rest of the galaxy that they are there?

Could it be that everyone is listening, but no one is transmitting?

[astromerlin]

Well, the aliens wont be recieving Freeview any time soon, I purchased a new tv with the FV tuner built in and thought it would be nice to have FV as well as sky but I couldn't get a signal. After a new aerial and booster I just get enough signal quality to recieve.

But what irritated me was the fact that I can see the transmitter mast from the bottom of my garden, apparently it only puts out 3 watts.

[Ouroboros]

Yes, my signal is retty lousy too. Ok except when it's windy. How does that work?

Anyway, it reminds of the widely held view that most civilisations probably only use broadcast em systems for a short time before they discover the benefits of broad bandwidth fibre technology. So their transmission time window might be quite short. Blink and you've missed 'em kinda thing.

[ronin]

If aliens can detect our signals, then understand that they are artifical and not natural, then decode them then yes they can hear our broadcasts. The problem they have is the same as us, recognising an alien signal. I would guess that TV and Radio are difficult to recognise as a "signal". The first ten primary numbers in binary form is a better possibility but don't think the BBC has ever done this.

As to detecting them we may need a dish of serveral Km to detect our signal but they may not. Satellite dishes here just a few years back were fairly large, they have become smaller and are getting smaller still.

[mallorcasaint]

If aliens can detect our signals, then understand that they are artifical and not natural, then decode them then yes they can hear our broadcasts. The problem they have is the same as us, recognising an alien signal. I would guess that TV and Radio are difficult to recognise as a "signal". The first ten primary numbers in binary form is a better possibility but don't think the BBC has ever done this.

As to detecting them we may need a dish of serveral Km to detect our signal but they may not. Satellite dishes here just a few years back were fairly large, they have become smaller and are getting smaller still.

Smaller dishes are only viable because of the small and fairly directional footprint of the signal and the fact that most are for digital transmissions. You still need very large dishes for weak omni-directional analogue signals.

[ollypenrice]

Any advance in a civilisation will be caused by change, normally a change thats harsh enough to prompt desperate search for an eaiser life.

All life is likely to be lazy (efficent with its expenditure of energy), so its only dirven to change / improvement due to lack of rescourses. Or competition for the rescourses with others.

Look at us, we made significant advances due to farming, then the industrial revolution and commercial competition. Not to mention countless wars. Dont forget, we only landed on the Moon due to the Cold War.

The strongest survive, the winners suvive, those who can adapt to change survive. So basically any intelligent lfe form will have become that way due to a constant battle to secure rescources and adapt to change.

Those lifeforms that have not had change as a catalyst have not advanced any further than that required to just get by.

So I do think if we are "visited" it will be by a life form thats come from a competitive background full of struggle for rescources and wars and difficulties. Thats the only catalist for change that will lead to advancement.

I'm not a biologist but I don't think this is correct. Darwin's 'survival of the fittest' is taken, today, to mean 'survival of the strongest' but that is not what 'fittest' meant, it meant 'most appropriate.' Darwin was well aware of sexual selection pressures - the prefereces of the females - and the whim of the females in choosing a partner can slew an evolutionary direction in remarkable ways. The male peakcock is encombered by his tail in all ways except one - the preference of the females. So, once the idea of the survival of the strongest fails - and it does fail - then with that the bulk of your argument seems to fall into question.

In the event of catastrophe we will be amongst the first to go. Last to go will be microbes buried in the rocks. The strongest may also be the weakest. It's like the game Paper, Scissors, Rock etc. Who is strongest depends on who is the aggressor.

What we must guard against is the idea that all life will be formed by the same pressures as our life and that all life will evolve to counter those pressures in the same way. Percival Lowell thought Martian canal builders had to be Republicans because only Republicans could organize global projects. Very silly, of course. Let's not make the same anthropomorphic and terra-centric mistake every time we think of life.

Olly

[nytecam]

Only hope they don't tune in to the trivia of Twitter and Facebook or we'll be used for hamburgers :-/

[wxsatuser]

Just as an example.

Look at what it takes to listen for the Voyagers and then talk back to them.

ET and us stand no chance over the vast distance of space.

If a signal did reach us/them it would most likely be at an extremely low level and low data rate.

To be of any use it's going to have to standout against the background hash of the universe.

I seriously doubt that any of our 20th century transmissions would even reach the nearest stars.

They were certainly never aimed directly at them and the frequencies used not suitable for transmitting

across interstellar space.

[Avo]

If I was an Alien and I picked up our TV signals I think I would switch off and go and do something useful...................................

[Macavity]

The interval (years) during which broadcasted, receivable, comprehensible(?) radio frequency emitted by an extra terrestrial culture might be quite small? Steve Wolfram wrote (thought provoking) stuff on this. SGL'ers wrote equally compelling (contrary) stuff, last time I mentioned it?

http://www.dailygala...st-popular.html

[Knight of Clear Skies]

This ask xkcd column does a good job of dealing with the original question. I particularly like this argument:

You can work through the physics of interstellar radio attenuation, but the problem is captured pretty well by considering the economics of the situation: If your TV signals are getting to another star, you’re losing money.

[Earl]

Imagine if the Human race is judged on its media....

[Paul M]

Imagine if the Human race is judged on its media....

And if it's an average episode of East Enders that they intercept they'll be quite certain that we are a race of loud, aggressive, socially retarded, sexually promiscuous, dysfunctional malcontents.

Probably not wrong there then.

Best keep away in case it's contagious