Astrophotography and false expectations?

[zootlewurdle]

Does anyone think that the current high quality of modern astrophotography gives people who have never looked through a telescope a false idea of what to expect if they ever do look through a telescope?

A case in point; a guy I know started to get all enthusiastic about wanting to get a 'scope of his own so he could look at planets and DSOs. He'd never used a 'scope of any sort before. That was until he went to a local "star party". He said he got to look through a really good 'scope there and was decidedly unimpressed, putting him completely off the idea of getting a 'scope. It seems he had very high expectations of what could be seen.

I remember clearly when I first used my 'scope, and that's saying something because I have a really bad memory Pretty much everything I looked at that first night was a "wow" moment. Excellent detail on the moon. Saturn's rings, who couldn't be impressed? Jupiter and its moons.

[Jeff RV]

I would think some people who have no experience of looking through a scope as you say, and expect to see things like M42 in glorious technicolour will be a tad disappointed when they see a grayish smudge etc, yes!!, Its a shame, because we know different, if only they try to understand!!

Jeff.

[Vega]

Absolutely... it's the real achillies heal of astronomy IMO. The human eye is simply not designed for seeing detail or colour at such low light levels as DSO's (unlike camera's). All these wonderfull photo's of deep sky objects without doubt cause false expectations for first time telescope users. Thank goodness for the gas giants and the moon I say! They can at least be the initial awe inspiring 'hook' to latch on to astro newcomers. You would hope that the inital hook will then inspire to learn more about what exactly they are looking at while looking at smudgy DSO's through a scope.

If ever showing non astro go-ers their a first telescopic sky object, I always try to avoid over enthusiastically showing off a DSO telling them what an awsome sight it is. It simply doesn't create the same wow factor and often results in the reaction you mentioned. Most DSO's only become a wonderful sight once you appreciate what the object is and realise it's sheer distance/size etc

Matt

[Jeff RV]

Absolutely... it's the real achillies heal of astronomy IMO. The human eye is simply not designed for seeing detail or colour at such low light levels as DSO's (unlike camera's). All these wonderfull photo's of deep sky objects without doubt cause false expectations for first time telescope users. Thank goodness for the gas giants and the moon I say! They can at least be the initial awe inspiring 'hook' to latch on to astro newcomers. You would hope that the inital hook will then inspire to learn more about what exactly they are looking at while looking at smudgy DSO's through a scope.

If ever showing non astro go-ers their a first telescopic sky object, I always try to avoid over enthusiastically showing off a DSO telling them what an awsome sight it is. It simply doesn't create the same wow factor and often results in the reaction you mentioned. Most DSO's only become a wonderful sight once you appreciate what the object is and realise it's sheer distance/size etc

Matt

Very well said!! Thats just what i meant

Jeff.

[centroid]

I tend to agree, and the pictures printed in the astro mags can 'paint a false picture' of what can be seen through an amateur telescope.

Undoubtedly this must in some cases, lead to profound disappointment, when a 'newbie' gets his or her first look through the average amateur telescope, at a typical DSO.

The Moon, Saturn, Jupiter and M42 are always good starting points, but even then, the lack of colour probably comes as a surprise.

Dave

[Grant]

I think thats why Turn Left at Orion is such a great book -

It shows things how they look in the eyepiece - its also a very useful educational book

[russ]

If ever showing non astro go-ers their a first telescopic sky object, I always try to avoid over enthusiastically showing off a DSO telling them what an awsome sight it is. It simply doesn't create the same wow factor and often results in the reaction you mentioned. Most DSO's only become a wonderful sight once you appreciate what the object is and realise it's sheer distance/size etc

Sadly even that approach fails most of the time. A lot of people just do not have the capacity to take on board what you are saying. Their minds are awash with Big Brother, Football and Strictly Come Dancing. They don't want to use their minds or imagination. So sad.

I rely purely on the Moon and the Gas Giants for the WOW factor. I certainly won't bother showing anyone Mars this year. I'm having trouble seeing the detail myself and my eyes are trained to look for it. A newbie will just see a very small red disk.

Although imaging has perhaps created this problem, i think it's worth noting that Astronomy wouldn't be anywhere near as popular as it is now had it not been for the imaging. Imaging has given astronomy a very IT feel and as a result perhaps doesn't have that 'men in white coats' feel anymore.

Russ

[trevboyd]

I think thats why Turn Left at Orion is such a great book - It shows things how they look in the eyepiece - its also a very useful educational book

I agree! When I got my copy, I was a bit disappointed it wasn't filled with glossy colour pictures, but then when I found a few objects in the 'scope I really appreciated the simplicity of its presentation and how accurately it portrayed what I could see.

I personally find it fascinating that you can see such different views of the same small patch of sky, nothing with the naked eye, grey smudges through a 'scope and then fabulous colour photos with long exposure photography. It all adds to the interest in my view.

Just my tuppence worth.

Trev

[GordonCopestake]

There are very few "WOW" objects out there. The moon, saturn and maybe jupiter is about it. Even clusters like M45 just dont do it for people who are not mad (like us!). Even my missus isn't impressed by M45 but Saturn does it every time. The moon is always the best one though, "WOW you can see craters!" etc

[Jeff RV]

There are very few "WOW" objects out there. The moon, saturn and maybe jupiter is about it. Even clusters like M45 just dont do it for people who are not mad (like us!). Even my missus isn't impressed by M45 but Saturn does it every time. The moon is always the best one though, "WOW you can see craters!" etc

Thats a big "WOW" factor alright, as yet i don't have a any filters so when guest want to look through the 12" at the Moon, i have to warn them that its not a good idea until i get some filters, its always a big WOW if they do,Squint, Squint,

Jeff.

[Vega]

Their minds are awash with Big Brother, Football and Strictly Come Dancing. They don't want to use their minds or imagination. So sad.

Rus

Hey.. I watch Big Bro and Some Footy... It's never harmed my interest in astronomy or turned me in to a zombie. Can somebody please define the word sad in this context to me ? and besdies it's good to have a bit of diversity no matter how 'sad' others may think it is. (Likewise goes for astronomy!) :D

There are very few "WOW" objects out there. The moon, saturn and maybe jupiter is about it. Even clusters like M45 just dont do it for people who are not mad (like us!). Even my missus isn't impressed by M45 but Saturn does it every time. The moon is always the best one though, "WOW you can see craters!" etc

Anyone who isn't wowed by M13 in a 12" scope is either blind or barking NUTS.

Matt

[zootlewurdle]

Yeah, when I first looked at the moon through my 'scope I wasn't really expecting the level of brightness you get!

I think M31 is a good example of people expecting to see something completely different. They've seen the impressively detailed photo's of our nearest galactic neighbour and are then surprised when you tell them that not only is it visible to the naked eye but that it's also larger than the moon!

[russ]

Hey.. I watch Big Bro and Some Footy... Very Happy It's never harmed my interest in astronomy or turned me in to a zombie. Can somebody please define the word sad in this context to me ? and besdies it's good to have a bit of diversity no matter how 'sad' others may think it is. (Likewise goes for astronomy!) Very Happy Very Happy

I just think it's sad that people can't stretch their imagination a little. Not sad that they watch Big Bro or footie. I only mentioned those two as the last time i showed a group of bods something through the scope all they wanted to talk about was Big Bro and footie. They must have spent a mere second at the eyepiece and didn't stop talking Big Bro even when their eye was at the eyepiece. Personally i don't think they even looked, just went through the motions to keep me quiet. Ho hum.

Russ

[Ant]

The Double cluster through the 8" Newt always did the WOW thing for me. Even though I had viewed the same cluster hundreds of times...

Ant

[Vega]

Yep, totally agree Ant, double cluster is another one on my 'showpeice list'

Matt

[GingerNut]

Thanx guys

This is a great list of WOW objects Keep em coming 8)

I have found you get a better reaction by building up the image

1. Show them the item naked eye using a laser pen - eg M45

2. Show them it again through your finder or guide scope - I use a ST80 with a 24mm EP

3. Then show them through the main scope

I find this works well as a build up for it

ATM, I also find comet Holmes good, especially using this process.

Yours Roy

[Vega]

Of course there's no need for an emergency 'wow list' if .... THE RINGED ONE is about.... A gauruntee'd winner everytime.

[John]

Another thing that I have noticed is that some newbies are expecting to see everything, in maximum detail, straightaway. I don't know about you but I have found that it has taken me ages (years) to learn how to look for, and at, astro objects. I'm sure that I can see more now with an 80mm scope than I could with a much larger one when I started out.

It's a difficult message to get across to newcomers to the hobby without sounding a bit boring but, with the exception of very few objects like the Moon, Jupiter and Saturn, I think those who like "quick wins" could find astronomy frustrating - no matter how much they might have spent on equipment !.

Oh, and I'm relieved that you are struggling to see much detail on Mars at the moment Russ - so am I !.

John

[Whippy]

I wholeheartedly agree. People look at images on t'web and go 'I'd like to see some of these, I want a scope', then spend a fair few quid and what they actually see is a bunch of grey smudges. Scope goes into storage or on Ebay.

When I get asked to 'show me some stuff', I noramlly go for a colour contrast double such as Albeiro or Almach as they're the only easy way to get some colour in the eyepiece. Close ups on the Moon are a good'n too.

Tony.

[GingerNut]

I wholeheartedly agree. People look at images on t'web and go 'I'd like to see some of these, I want a scope', then spend a fair few quid and what they actually see is a bunch of grey smudges. Scope goes into storage or on Ebay.

That's good though, cos that's how I got my LX90 GPS, from ebay, used 4 times, bargain

Yours Roy

[themos]

The cynical old s*d says: "Why not mislead the gullible? Persuade a rich cretin that a Ritchey-Chretien would show him Hubbly images and then buy it off them cheap when they go off it"

I'd never do that, mind.

[steppenwolf]

This is a real problem isn't - and I have to confess that I rarely use my eyepieces these days and then only on the Moon, planets and open clusters. I started with high expectations of the viewing experience and did get that WOW factor especially from the Moon, Jupiter (and moons) and in particular M45 but night after night of faint grey fuzzies just didn't hit the spot for me. For me, the hobby was transformed by my first camera image through the telescope and everything I do is now essentially image based.

I have nothing but admiration for those who don't image but use their eyes instead but despite the fact that I have a great imagination and a thirst for the new, I need to image to get the real kick!

Whenever I do demonstrate what it is all about to newcomers, I do, of course, use the eyepiece but concentrate on the really bright and obvious objects like M45, M13, Albireo, Orion Nebula, Jupiter, Saturn and the Moon. I have never failed to extract a 'wow' from my visitors that way.

[mik]

This is a very good thread with some very good points put forward as i have got back into

the hobby after a 20year gap i was amazed about 2 years ago to find forums with these superb

images that are better than some images in the old Atlas of the universe book i had years ago

also in a time when a freind told me matey down the astro club had a 6 inch newt wow.

The trouble is we live in an instant society where most things are available via plastic in the

wallet so it is easy to try something new at a drop of a hat.

The thing that gets me is the newbie post in welcome saying i want to get a new scope tell me what one

and then i want to do imaging of planets/dso/all of it.

You dont see a lot of i am going to get a telescope and learn about Astronomy and have a go at sketching

the nights sky.

So my advise to newbie's is learn the sky and its moods,learn to sketch at the eyepiece,and learn to learn

and be patient.

Oh if i could afford to image i would, i take my hat off to all the superb images on this forum i would just like to see a few more sketches.

I think thats it for now. Mick.

Mick

[blinky]

This is a real problem isn't - and I have to confess that I rarely use my eyepieces these days and then only on the Moon, planets and open clusters. I started with high expectations of the viewing experience and did get that WOW factor especially from the Moon, Jupiter (and moons) and in particular M45 but night after night of faint grey fuzzies just didn't hit the spot for me. For me, the hobby was transformed by my first camera image through the telescope and everything I do is now essentially image based.

I have nothing but admiration for those who don't image but use their eyes instead but despite the fact that I have a great imagination and a thirst for the new, I need to image to get the real kick!

Have to completly agree with you there. I think I would have given up on DSO's were it not for the ability to image them. I always have a look through the EP at the DSO but it's amazing what you can image. I also think we miss a lot of detail in the faint fuzzies due to the light pollution and thats another reason I image.

[John]

..... For me, the hobby was transformed by my first camera image through the telescope and everything I do is now essentially image based.

I have nothing but admiration for those who don't image but use their eyes instead but despite the fact that I have a great imagination and a thirst for the new, I need to image to get the real kick! .....

I've been a visual observer for 25 years but, probably as a result of visiting Anthony's lovely observatory and seeing his fab imaging kit, I seem to have a growing "itch" to try some imaging, albeit on a very modest scale. Thanks Anthony and you other imagers - I suspect that this is a very slippery slope

John