Travel use - Binoculars or Small scope?

[Commanderfish]

Hi space wizards,

Advice please!  I'm looking for:

- A rig small and light enough to go on holidays - to Cornwall in a car full of family stuff, and now and then in flight luggage too

- Quick to set up so when I'm home and only have an hour I can spend most of it observing (my main scope is a C9.25AVX goto)

-  Targets for new rig in order of preference:  Nebs, Globs, Galaxies, Open clusters, Planets (main scope handles planets)

I've never used Binos for astronomy, I like the idea of 1) binocular view and 2) wide views of e.g. the Milky Way, but wonder if I'll get annoyed on holiday with limited mag on e.g. nebs and globs.

Options I'm considering:

A) 15 x 70 Bins, likely Helios Apollo, with a Monopod and ball head.

B ) Small scope, like a 80/100mm Short tube Frac or SCT/Mak and some kind of small/light tripod.  My concern here is that the Tripod would be too big and heavy for travel.

Questions:

1) I understand a P mount and Tripod would be better for Bins but I think the weight and size would prohibit taking them to Cornwall let alone abroad.  Would I be better off with a lighter tripod mounting option such as a photographic tripod, which would be difficult to use above 60 degrees, or a monopod and ball mount (which might be less steady and more tiring?

2) What's the smallest lightest mount I can get away with for an ST frac, small Mak or small SCT?  Could I getaway with a photographic mount or other small and light enough to travel with?

3) What would you go for?  I know this is a bino-specific forum so please try not to be biased ;o)

Cheers

Fish

[Fozzie]

Hi..

I'm going to throw this thread in the mix straight away... I've taken this away to corfu and it did ok... it'll be better now with the new head configuration..

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/247988-grab-and-go-mount-ball-head-and-pan-plate-combo/

Light weight and portable, bins and a tripod are also good but maybe not as flexible as a scope and range of ep's

Interesting choice for you to make

Ta

Fozzie

[ronin]

I would buy a small refractor, but I like refractors. If money allowed a 66mm ED or a 72mm ED and put it on a camera tripod or a Vixen Portamount mini.

Being ED neither will be cheap unfortunately.

I have binoculars and use them but it depends on what you want to do in the way of observing. To be honest if you are thinking of 15x on holiday I would say get 10x42's and forget a tripod or whatever.

I am not aware of an inexpensive achro at 66/72mm area, would say something around f/7 or slower just to minimise CA. There will be something it is a case of tracking it down. Line up 3 reasonable eyepieces and that is it - to me anyway.

[Piero]

Nice holiday in Cornwall!

I went last summer and the sky was very nice for two nights.

Answering your question is not really easy. It depends on how you like binoculars and how much you are satisfied with low power. 

The cons of binoculars such as the Helios are

1) constant magnification;

2) difficulty to point at the Zenith. You don't necessarily have to.. There are many nice targets visible in a dark sky far below 60-70 degrees.. 

The pros is that they show you the Heaven, in a way that no telescope (apart from a short wide field telescope) is able to show you, but spending many times the price.

A small telescope is more versatile, but

1. requires its eyepeices.. (some of the 'short focal length eps' you use with your 9.25 might be wide field eps with this scope..!)

2. if above 80mm it is heavier than the binoculars (helios)..

Beside one's tastes, I would also consider the following questions:

1. how often do you use your C9.25 at home. A lot or not? Have you ever felt the need of a grab and go instrument for short sessions? 

2. how light polluted is the sky at home? 

Based on 1, if you wish to have a grab and go instrument at home too, possibly an 80 is a better choice than binoculars. 

Based on 2, if you live under light polluted sky at home, again, an 80 could show you doubles and planets too, whereas bins could have little use at 15x and large 4.4mm exit pupil. 

Whatever you choose, I would still get a decent mount, whether this is a photo tripod or a telescope mount. In particular, if you get a binoculars, this has to be solid and high enough. Enjoy Cornwall!  

Another thing: 

I would also buy a rolled camping mattress (blue, 1cm thick, 10 pounds in sport/trekking shops), and make one or two (if you get a binoculars) dew shields. Cornwall can be quite wet and your observation may be ruined by dew within 1h. 

[Ruud]

I use a monopod which I rest on the seat of a chair to get my binos higher than my head. While I observe I hold the binoculars quite firmly, letting the monopod carry most of the combined weight of my arms and the binoculars.

For general purpose viewing I would recommend a central focusing 8x42 roof prism, like the Celestron Granite (or better). 

For astronomy, individual eyepiece focusing is okay, but for observing birds or sports individual eyepiece focussing is just too slow. 

[damnut]

Hi There,

My grab & go is an st 120, put with an az4 its a great combo. Its bullet proof, cheap, survives sand, snow & dog slobber.

Why not an ED welI I just would not risk putting it in the car. It has to go in the boot, roof box or boot. The ST has some ca when looking at bright objects, but this is far outweighed by the aperture and widefield views it offers.

Good luck with your choice.

[Commanderfish]

Very interesting Fozzie, light and not pricey.  Have you had first light yet?  Very interested in how easy or difficult it is to track celestial objects.  I've only had EQ mounts up to now so I'm used to only having to adjust RA when tracking.

[philhas]

I use a Manfrotto Junior geared head with Red Snapper Tripod , it carries my F5.5 90mm refractor no problem. I did use a ball head but when I got towards the zenith it just didn't work for me.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[Commanderfish]

Hi Piero,

I use the 9.25SCT when I've got a couple of hours or more, but a grab and go would be great.  Light pollution is light to moderate (Esher, Surrey).  

I have a couple of nice 1.25" EPs and I could buy a couple more (my main EPs are 2").  So yes, I think a small scope could be the way forward...

Is it easy enough to use an Alt Az mount like the Vixen Porta Mini for astronomy?  I've never had to track objects using 2 controls as I'm used to EQ mounts. Is it annoying when you;re used to EQs and Gotos?

[Commanderfish]

HI Philhas, that looks like a great system.  Which Red Snapper Tripod did you go for, the 283 (3 section), 284M (4 section) or 324 (4 section 1.77 metres)?

[Piero]

Is it easy enough to use an Alt Az mount like the Vixen Porta Mini for astronomy? I've never had to track objects using 2 controls as I'm used to EQ mounts. Is it annoying when you;re used to EQs and Gotos?

I haven't ever used the vixen ports mini, so I cannot comment on that. I used an EQ mount in the past and to me, and many others, alt Az is the way for visual astronomy. You need to learn your way on the sky, therefore a pocket atlas like the one from sky and telescope is really useful if you don't have it already because of a GOTO mount.

Anyway tracking won't be a problem at low power with a frac, and I doubt you will find it to be a problem at high power either.

[happy-kat]

For general purpose viewing I would recommend a central focusing 8x42 roof prism, like the Celestron Granite (or better).

Got these and they are great. So easy fast to use and give a different view from telescope, used them to follow comet Lovejoy. Lovely bright crisp images they give.

[Commanderfish]

I think I'm sold on the small frac idea.  For visual use, is there a big difference between a doublet and a triplet?  There's a second hand triplet I can get for the same price as a doublet.  What is better for visual though, an ED100 Doublet or an ED80 Triplet?

[Stu]

For me, a nice widefield scope would always be my preference. I would personally not get a small mak, given your main scope as it does not offer a different perspective ie it has a narrow field of view and long focal length.

A decent, shorter focal length scope can offer wonderful wide fields, 4 or 5 degrees potentially whilst still being able to offer higher mags for planetary or doubles if desired.

A good photo tripod can work well, either with a photo head, or possibly a mini giro which is easier to balance towards the zenith.

With more space an AZ4 would be nice and solid. Personally I don't really get on with Slo mo controls on an alt az mount. I think it's fine on an EQ where you just have to turn one, but I prefer just moving the scope on an alt az. It's all personal preference though.

Depending on budget, and ST80 clone would be nice for widefield but not for higher powers. An 80ED or similar would be nice, and good for high power though narrow fields overall.

A scope would also be great for white light solar with Baader solar film or a Herschel wedge.

[Commanderfish]

I think I'm going for an ED as I've already had a cheap frac (my first scope).  As this is for visual work, am I best off getting an 80mm ED or a 100mm ED?  I'll be using a photo tripod and an Alt Az head, maybe the Manfrotto Junior or VIxen Porta Mini.

[Fozzie]

Very interesting Fozzie, light and not pricey.  Have you had first light yet?  Very interested in how easy or difficult it is to track celestial objects.  I've only had EQ mounts up to now so I'm used to only having to adjust RA when tracking.

It's definitely not a tracking mount, more off a nudge and nudge like a dob base.. I've had a breif first light with a 80mm F5 frac.. its stable but does suffer from vibration after alignment and focusing, takes a couple of seconds to settle.. but then it's primarily for a suitcase and plane as opposed to a car.. its a good point and look option for me..

[Stu]

I think I'm going for an ED as I've already had a cheap frac (my first scope). As this is for visual work, am I best off getting an 80mm ED or a 100mm ED? I'll be using a photo tripod and an Alt Az head, maybe the Manfrotto Junior or VIxen Porta Mini.

Sounds like a good choice. I'd probably go for an 80mm. More portable and shorter focal length for widefield. Easier on the mount too.

You are close to me if you are in Esher, we have a small group that meets at Esher Rugby club if you fancy some company.

[Stu]

Generally an ED doublet is good enough for visual, but a nice triplet is worth having. Moonshane has a Meade 80mm triplet which I think he is pleased with.

Only thing worth checking is some of the cheaper triple objective cells aren't necessarily the best and can pinch the optics in cold weather.

[LukeSkywatcher]

If i was going on a driving holiday i'd take my 70mm refractor. For holidays which include a flight i'd bring my 10x50 bins. I have in the past taken the 70mm on flights (it comes with its own backpack), but didnt use it much.

[Commanderfish]

Sounds like a good choice. I'd probably go for an 80mm. More portable and shorter focal length for widefield. Easier on the mount too.

You are close to me if you are in Esher, we have a small group that meets at Esher Rugby club if you fancy some company.

Walton Astonomy Group?  I've been!  I was at the May meet.  I think I've just missed the solar workshop?  I will be there again next month I should think

[Stu]

Walton Astonomy Group? I've been! I was at the May meet. I think I've just missed the solar workshop? I will be there again next month I should think

Great! Solar workshop is on Thursday 6th if you are around.

[Commanderfish]

Ok well it looks like my choices are:  

A) a new Skywatcher or Orion ED80 F7.5 Doublet with Ohara FPL53 glass (which I gather is very good) or 

B )a used Explore Scientific ED80 F6 Triplet with FCD1 glass, 2" diag and alu case for roughly the same price.

Both have a dual speed Crayford Focusser.

I get the impression from my googling that FCD1 is a copy of the FPL 53 glass, so might not be quite as good, but no one seems to be certain either way.  

Any opinions on the above?

Thanks everyone, an encyclopedia of information you guys are! 

[BinocularSky]

OK, I'm biased - but, I think, for a good reason: binoculars are just so very very easy to use.

* They would complement your C9.25 for home use

* Far more convenient than a small refractor (but not as versatile)

* Binoculars give you a very different take on astronomy - forget the planets and don't compare it to telescope astronomy: it is different, (in a similar way that Sipsmiths is different to Laphroaig).
* Helios Apollo 15x70 (+ monopod & trigger grip head) would be far more compact for packing than a small refractor or Mak + tripod + eyepieces; also a monopod, because it doesn't have leg hinges to "go wrong" is a lot more robust than a tripod. (This is also my "travelling kit" for car holidays; I have no incentive to change.)

[Commanderfish]

Hi Binocular Sky,  I have to say the Helios option and Monopod is also very tempting  Perhaps I will end up getting both an ED80 and a Helios when funds allow. 

I am missing big widefield views.  I will likely go for an ED80 for now and get a Helios around Christmas.  With an Explore Scientific ED80 Triplet, my 2" eyepiece collection would give me TFOVS as follows:

6 degrees at x12 - Revelation 42mm

5 degrees at x16 - Moonfish 30mm

3 degrees at x28 - Televue Nagler Type 4 17mm

2 degrees at x 40- Televue Nagler Type 4 12mm

That seems a very versatile and satisfying wide field set up to me.

[jkwhinfrey]

I like your idea of getting both ;-))

I use an ST-80 to which I've installed a dual speed 2" focuser. On a photo-tripod and giro-wr the whole lot weighs about the same as my 150PDS.

It was interesting using my Revelation 42mm (9x and nearly 7 degs!) in it on Cygnus the other night, in a good way. Strangely lower mag than any of my bins and a much larger field.

I tried a 28mm Nirvana too. Not sure I liked it much, it feels like it weighs more than the scope and mount!

I find myself settling on my 24mm panoptic and 11mm ES82 when using it. A good lightweight option with an 1.25" diagonal.

The next night I took my Helios Apollo bins for a spin on the monopod setup. It is a very different type of observing and there are lots of targets that look better in bins IMO. And these bins are lovely.

Having the a fixed magnification makes you approach observing differently, and these are the only instrument to show me M33, M101 and perhaps the eastern Veil??

Both are great and I don't see myself giving up either. Of course the ES scope should be much better than my ST-80. I'll be interested to see what you think of it.

James