EPs: Pentax or Televue?

[pvaz]

Hi.

I'm considering to upgrade my EPs next year.

I'll be looking into 2 EPs, one in the 30 to 40mm range and another around 13mm.

I favor edge to edge sharpness, quality and light scater control on bright objects over FOV size. I rather see less but better edge to edge quality. If I can get both then better!

This are the EPs I'm considering:

For the widefield:

The Pentax XW 40mm will give me 30x and a 2.33º FOV.

The TV Naggler 31mm will give me 38,7x and a 2.11ºFOV.

For the 13mm:

The Pentax XW 14mm will give me 86x and 0.81º FOV.

The Naggler 13mm with 92x and a 0.89º FOV.

Or the, twice expensive Ethos, 10m will provide 120x and a nice 0.88º FOV (nice FOV and bigger magnification for globulars and planets).

If you know a high quality barlow that "doesn't seam to be there" when used with this EPs I'm open to suggestions. If any barlow, no matter how good will reduce the quality I rather wait and buy a 3rd one at a latter time.

Another thing to consider: I can get the Pentax XWs at about 20% less then the Televues if I order from the states (dollar rate FTW) even if I have to pay the import taxes. They will be 30% less without taxes, in case costums forget to check it.

I never used any of this high quality EPs and no one that lives here owns one. So your advice will really count into whatever I decide to buy.

[Merlin66]

I can only comment of the Pentax vs TV Zoom.

I bought both.... All my other eyepieces are 20 YO TV's and the 8-24mm TV Zoom was OK but the Pentax 8-24 Zoom was much better.. Sold the TV and kept the Nitrogen Filled Petax Zoom!!

(BTW its even BIGGER than my original Nagler 13mm - Hand grenade!)

[pvaz]

Another thing: Televue haves the Panoptics and the Nagglers.

Whats the difference between them?

[John]

Hi Paulo,

I've read loads of stuff on this topic over the past couple of years. I've owned many Tele Vue's including my current Nagler plus Ethos set and recently I've had a chance to try some of the Pentax XW's as well.

My view is that they Naglers and XW's are both superb eyepiece ranges and the reason why some people prefer one over the other are personal preferences rather than any significant performance differences.

If you prefer a bit more eye relief then the Pentax's have that. If you prefer a wider field of view then the Nagler's have that. Both are sharp to the edge in scopes down to F/4. Both control light scatter supremely well. Some say the Naglers have a slight "warm" colour cast (I've not noticed it myself) wheras the Pentax's are more neutral. The 31mm Nagler is brilliant but very heavy so that might be a factor (ie: scope balance).

So it's a tough choice with no clear "winner" in my opinion - without being "you" it's very difficult to predict which type you will enjoy more - if cost is a factor then the deal you can get might swing it - in the UK the XW's cost a bit more than the smaller Naglers and in the larger sizes they cost about the same. Both types hold their value well which is a good sign as well.

On the barlow, I've used a few good ones but the best was another Tele Vue products I'm afraid - a 2.5x Powermate which really did seem to "get out of the way" when in use. I understand that the 2x 2" Powermate is equally excelllent.

You are going to get a range of different views on this and the above are just my views of course but I don't think this is a case where one product is "better" than the other - they are both superb but go about it in slightly different ways, which appeal to different people in different ways.

John

[John]

Another thing: Televue haves the Panoptics and the Nagglers.

Whats the difference between them?

Panoptic = 68 degree FoV, 15mm - 40mm range

Nagler (6 different types !!) = 82 degree FoV - 2.5mm - 31mm range

John

[Demonperformer]

Hi Paulo

I picked up a second hand Pentax XL 14mm eyepiece a couple of months ago and the views in it are stunning [to me]

[MG1]

Hi Pvaz,

my feelings for you as you try to make a very difficult decision.

IMHO and it's only an opinion based on my experience and preferances, the pentax xw's are lovely. I own the 14mm and the views are simply stunning across the field.

the tv's and xw's have super built quality, but for me The real difference is in the eye relief and the benefit of twist up cups on the xw's. This is great if you are sharing scope time as it enables inxperiencex observers to place their eye on the piece with worrying about touching the glass.

I do love my pan though and on widefield targets it's so sharp and 'spacey' I can just keep looking and looking without feeling any strain.

My 5mm nag on the other hand I've just not managed to enjoy, but then I think for what I wanted it for (planets and doubles) I thnk I should have gone with an ortho.

I think if I'm honest you'll come to love either way you go, but for what it's worth I'm saving for the 10mm xw and do hope some day to get the big boy 40mm too.

Hth and you enjoy whichver u get.

Mike

[johninderby]

The one thing I can definitely say on the subject is that you can't go wrong in choosing either the Pentax or Nagler. They're both great eyepieces.

Everyone's eyes differ in their sensitivity to colour so while some say the Naglers have a much warmer tone many may not really notice much of a difference. And if you use filters it doesn't matter anyway.

They both have distortion, just different kinds. Naglers are optimized for astro use and have sacrificed some pincushion distortion in exchange for improving other aspects of the eyepieces. Pentax were designed for use with spotting scopes and in turn have sacrificed some rectilinear distortion in exchange for improving performance in daylight while panning horizontally.

The Televue barlows and Powermates are excellent. I came across a quote from Al Nagler that said for newts/dobs the barlow was just as good as the powermate, but that with refractors the Powermates had a clear advantage (something to do with being used with a diagonal).

UK prices on Pentax do vay a lot. For example UK prices on the Pentax 30 XW vary between £420.00 and £529.00 so there's a lot of checking to be done before saying that it's going to be cheaper to import. Also on Naglers Telescope House regularily has 10% off sales.

John

[John]

.... Also on Naglers Telescope House regularily has 10% off sales.....

10% of everything at TH this weekend

John

[Neil27]

I have a mixture of both.

I have a nagler 9.8mm, which is a fantastic eyepiece.

I also have the 7, 14 and 20mm xw pentax eyepieces which (imho) are better than the TV.

I also have the 35mm panoptic which sits right in the middle of the 30 to 40mm range you mention. It is probably my most used eyepiece at this time of the season. It is a great eyepiece 68 degrees, reasonable eye relief and I wear specs and it doesn't interfere with the viewing.

But the pentax are just so clinical in their views, I prefer these to most other brands. To be honest you aren't going to get a lemon in the choices you have mentioned.

Good price here for the pentax 30mm

Pentax XW 30mm 2 Inch EyepieceTelescope Accessories | Rother Valley Optics

Panoptic 35mm here

TeleVue Panoptic Eyepieces

Let us know what you choose.

[fmeireso]

If you know a high quality barlow that "doesn't seam to be there" when used with this EPs I'm open to suggestions

Carl Zeis Abbe barlow

Carl Zeiss Abbe Barlow Lens 1.25"

Expensive!

But even a Televue 2x barlow is very good and does not degrade the optics. They have their properties like sometimes raged fieldstop =(small vignetting),and add a bit eyerelief.

A powermate is even still better because all the properties of the eyepieces remains unchanged.

As for the eyepieces : if you really like good eyerelief get the Pentax XW series. But some people reporte field curvature on the longer focal lengths models. The best of the series are the 10,7, 5mm. In my 10 mm i don't see any field curvature. They also barlow very well

Naglers are a bit more difficult to look through and can sometimes black out. One get rather used to it but some people sold their T6 outfits because of that.

[johninderby]

10% of everything at TH this weekend

John

Just ordered an 8mm Ethos from them while the sale is on. I've just sold my 17mm Ethos and so had the cash to spare. So now I have the 6mm, 8mm and 10mm Ethos eyepieces. For me it's worked out that I prefer the Ethos at the shorter focal lengths, but like the Naglers better at the longer focal lengths. The 17E just wasn't being used, I seemed to reach for the 26mm Nagler every time instead.

Every-one's eyes are different so what's best for one person might be very different for the next one. Colour sensitivity, coma sensitivity, astigmatism, visual acuity, eyeglass wearer etc. all play their part. I find the Naglers for instance very easy to look through, and for me they have plenty of eye relief and have zero problems with black out.

It's a pity that you can't try some out and see what's best for you. Although I suppose you could find a dealer that would let you return one if it didn't suit and exchange for the other brand perhaps.

John

[brianb]

My impressions: Pentax XW, eye position less critical, colour "white". TV Nagler, eye position more critical, colour has a warm cast. Both are large, heavy and expensive; neither has as good contrast nor as much light transmission as a good orthoscopic or even an exceptional Plossl. Now if you're mostly interested in wide field views of star fields, the contrast & transmission may not matter too much, the extra field will over-ride that - nevertheless the matter should be considered, especially at higher powers for planetary use.

The various EPs also have different characteristics which make them work better with some sorts of scopes than others, depending on field curvature, coma etc.

Best advice is to "suck & see", though my impression is that few people who have tried Pentax rate TV afterwords.

[wulfrunian]

I'll be interested to hear what you go for, as I've been having the same debate with myself too. Looks like I've managed to fund an upgrade in eyepieces, and I was leaning towards Pentax. However I've now had the opportunity to buy a second hand Nirvana (thanks John!) so I'm going to see how I get on with that - if I can cope with the shorter eye relief then that range would save quite a bit of cash, except that there's a gap between the 7mm and 16mm, so I'd probably blow the money saved on something else anyway!

[MartinB]

I have a Pentax 7mm XL and a 10mm XW both bought second hand. the XL cost less than half the XW but you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between them in quality.

[brianb]

XL cost less than half the XW

Moot, since XL is long discontinued.

[great_bear]

It's a pity that you can't try some out and see what's best for you. Although I suppose you could find a dealer that would let you return one if it didn't suit and exchange for the other brand perhaps.

John

Erm... All dealers have to allow this now. It's the law.

What's more, the law is intended for precisely this situation - i.e. where you can't tell if a product suits you before getting your hands on one.

If you don't like any eyepiece you can return it and the dealer has to refund in full - including the original postage costs too. "Restocking fees" are now illegal. The packaging does not need to remain intact, and the goods do not have to be returned "unused" if that's the only way they could be evaluated.

There are further details in this booklet.

[johninderby]

Do remember that this applies to goods bought online (distance selling) and if you buy in the shop your rights are more limited. Also there are some exceptions (custom made etc.) that can affect your right to return even goods bought online.

But it's so much better to talk to the dealer first and explain your dilemma and let them help you to sort it out.

John

[Mark at Beaufort]

It has been stated already but whichever you decide to buy - Pentax or TV the quality of the EP will be superb.

I have the TV Panoptic 35mm which has fantastic eye relief and the 2 degree FOV on the 6" refractor is something very special.

In addition I have 2 Ethos EPs the 13mm and 8mm which I think are brilliant EPs although they do cost a great deal of money. The images on the 10" FlexTube Dob, with both EPs, are sharp across the whole FOV and with the wide field it is very easy keeping objects in view.

So both camps will give Pentax and TV excellent star ratings and its a pity you can't get access to try them out without having to buy.

mark

[MartinB]

Moot, since XL is long discontinued.

Hardly moot Brian since they are frequently available second hand.

[Chris H]

Hi Paulo, I have an xt10i and I use a Nagler 12mm type 4 it gives me x100 magnification and it also barlows really well to give x200. IMO it is a really nice eyepiece, it has excellent eye relief, is sharp to the edge of the field and is dual barrelled. It has the click stop eyepiece adjustment which I have read quite a few negative comments about but I think it is a very good feature I just pull it out 3 clicks and eye placement is then perfect. It cost a lot of money but it gets an awful lot of use and DSO's look amazing through it. I also have a Nirvana 28mm which gives me about x43 mag and a 2 degree FOV. It is also excellent and a lot cheaper than a Pentax or a Nagler 26 or 31 type 5. I am so impressed with the 12T4 I think I am going to get the 17mm next. I also want a high power eyepiece so I think a 7 or 9mm type 6 should do it. Those black eyepieces with green writing just look great in your eyepiece case. I am hooked.

[pvaz]

Indeed it's a hard choise. Trying before buying is not an option witch makes it harder.

The Panoptics 35mm is also appealing even though it haves a shorter FOV but its cheaper and seams to provide excelent quality.

My idea is to have this 2 new EPs for DSOs. I'm extremelly satisfied with the Baader Orthos for planetary, although they are not the most confortable EPs to peek through, they provide excelent image quality at a good price.

Right now, after reading your oppinions and reading some reviews, I'm more inclined towards this 2:

Panoptics 35mm

Pentax XW 14mm

Witch seam to provide excelent quality a decent FOV and still let me keep some cash for other hobbies (I'm seriously considering kite surfing, witch is expensive but fun, and besides I'm 28 now and starting to get a belly so some phisical activity will do me good. ).

I won't be buying till february or so, I just bougth all my gear in the last 2 months. I'll let the idea mature and buy some stuff to SWMBO so she may aprove my next investments . For now my only purchase will be the hotech colli in order to get the best of my current gear.

I also decided to drop the idea to start imaging 'till I have a more relaxed work life. Right now, the more I read about imaging, the more it feels like a 2nd full time job. I think it might even put me off astronomy at this busy time of my life, so I'll be a pure observer for now.

This started as an already complex choice between EPs and lead to an even harder choice about my path in the hobby allthoughether!

Thanks all for the help!

[fmeireso]

Pan 35 is a terrific eyepiece. Big eyerelief (a bit too much for me) good correction allthough a Nagler 26 is probably better.

Anyhow i like it and it's my finder eyepiece in my 18" scope

[great_bear]

Do remember that this applies to goods bought online

Not just online - goods (most goods) bought over the phone as well. It doesn't apply - as you say - to custom goods, or goods bought in-store.

But it's so much better to talk to the dealer first first and explain your dilemma and let them help you to sort it out.

Can't agree there. Not something I'd do or recommend. A dealer's opinion is just yet another opinion, but more importantly dealers have an agenda - and that's the preservation of their business. Some are better than others - and very few would recommend a totally bogus purchase - but you're opening yourself up to being pushed towards products that are in stock rather than possibly better ones that aren't.

[great_bear]

Indeed it's a hard choise. Trying before buying is not an option witch makes it harder.

Well - as I said - it is an option now under current legislation.

You can just return any eyepiece ordered over the phone or online for refund after evaluation.