Are we alone in the universe?

[Mandy D]

1 minute ago, saac said:

Correct, there is undoubtedly physics as yet unknown to us . However we are not at liberty to engineer our present programs on "what dreams may come".  All very nice to sit and ponder communication by sub space temporal entangled gravitons but that will get us nowhere.  We are compelled to use the technology of which we have command. Radio communication is a relatively straightforward exploitation of a fundamental characteristic of our universe.  It's very properties serve well for interstellar communication . It is entirely reasonable that other civilisations, if they exist, would also have found it (radio) a fundamental characteristic of the universe and as readily exploitable as we have.  

Jim 

Yes, we agree on this point, but a species more technologically advanced and with greater understanding of physics than us would not necessarily be bound by our limited knowledge and 'may' indeed have access to super light speed comms and travel. Indeed, if they were truly space-faring on an intra or inter galactic basis we may have to assume that they do not use radio for their communications. it would be a tad impractical, would it not?

[saac]

22 minutes ago, Mandy D said:

There may be physics that we do not yet know. The victorians declared that the end of physics was in sight, yet here we are over 120 years later and still cannot see the light at the end of the tunnel.

I think it was Lord Levin who, most likely, is misattributed in claiming the "end of physics".  He also predicted that manned heavier than air flight would never happen. Just goes to show people can be wrong I guess. 

Jim 

[neil phillips]

10 minutes ago, saac said:

I think it was Lord Levin who, most likely, is misattributed in claiming the "end of physics".  He also predicted that manned heavier than air flight would never happen. Just goes to show people can be wrong I guess. 

Jim 

Hallelujah. 

[ollypenrice]

7 minutes ago, saac said:

I think it was Lord Levin who, most likely, is misattributed in claiming the "end of physics".  He also predicted that manned heavier than air flight would never happen. Just goes to show people can be wrong I guess. 

Jim 

Lord Kelvin, I think you meant?  Unless Bernard Levin had a promotion that passed me by! 🤣

It certainly makes a splendid cautionary tale, whoever said it. Will anyone ever make the same mistake again? Given that Heisenberg thought turbulence too difficult for god, maybe not.

Olly

 

 

[AngryDonkey]

6 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

Given that Heisenberg thought turbulence too difficult for god, maybe not.

Which one????

[saac]

3 minutes ago, Mandy D said:

Yes, we agree on this point, but a species more technologically advanced and with greater understanding of physics than us would not necessarily be bound by our limited knowledge and 'may' indeed have access to super light speed comms and travel. Indeed, if they were truly space-faring on an intra or inter galactic basis we may have to assume that they do not use radio for their communications. it would be a tad impractical, would it not?

I could not disagree more.  We can dream up any fanciful thoughts we wish to conjure; however, unfalsifiable hypothesis are not particularly productive propositions. Why for example would these technological advanced space aliens bother using any form of communication at all. We could hypothesis that they have advanced to such level that they thread themselves to very fabric of space itself, capable of sensing every ebb and flow of the universe.  Why would they even travel, they have no need, they have sufficient command of the underlying physics to compel space and time to materialise around them.  So once we accept that, we can give up trying to communicate, all that is left is to surrender to a paralysis of inaction.  Thankfully, more rationale thoughts prevail and, as our engineers above all know, we use what works. RF is a fundamental property of the universe, and it works;  ScrewFix  are showing nil stock of sub space temporal entangled gravitons until next Tuesday  

Jim 

[neil phillips]

1 minute ago, AngryDonkey said:

Which one????

Breaking bad science

[saac]

9 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

Lord Kelvin, I think you meant?  Unless Bernard Levin had a promotion that passed me by! 🤣

It certainly makes a splendid cautionary tale, whoever said it. Will anyone ever make the same mistake again? Given that Heisenberg thought turbulence too difficult for god, maybe not.

Olly

 

 

A ha,  no I was being wrong    Thanks Olly well spotted, gosh I now cannot go back and correct it!!!!!!   Can't find a frustration emoji. 

Jim 

[neil phillips]

1 minute ago, saac said:

A ha,  no I was being wrong    Thanks Olly well spotted, gosh I now cannot go back and correct it!!!!!!   Can't find a frustration emoji. 

Jim 

Too late Jim too late for you 😂

[saac]

25 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

Lord Kelvin, I think you meant?  Unless Bernard Levin had a promotion that passed me by! 🤣

It certainly makes a splendid cautionary tale, whoever said it. Will anyone ever make the same mistake again? Given that Heisenberg thought turbulence too difficult for god, maybe not.

Olly

 

 

I think it is a part of human nature,  a tendency towards hubris when you are so immersed in a particular philosophy. I may be wrong but wasn't there a similar expression being voiced by particle physicists a few years ago regarding "little left to be found in the particle zoo."  That said, I do think we will eventually get to that stage, if we survive.  I honestly think that the human brain has the capacity to know the universe at least to the depth that it is permissible.  Is that sentence self confirming, I don't know,!  Anyway, I think we are pretty good at this stuff  

Jim 

Edited November 18, 2022 by saac

[neil phillips]

10 minutes ago, saac said:

I could not disagree more.  We can dream up any fanciful thoughts we wish to conjure; however, unfalsifiable hypothesis are not particularly productive propositions. Why for example would these technological advanced space aliens bother using any form of communication at all. We could hypothesis that they have advanced to such level that they thread themselves to very fabric of space itself, capable of sensing every ebb and flow of the universe.  Why would they even travel, they have no need, they have sufficient command of the underlying physics to compel space and time to materialise around them.  So once we accept that, we can give up trying to communicate, all that is left is to surrender to a paralysis of inaction.  Thankfully, more rationale thoughts prevail and, as our engineers above all know, we use what works. RF is a fundamental property of the universe, and it works;  ScrewFix  are showing nil stock of sub space temporal entangled gravitons until next Tuesday  

Jim 

To answer your question of why. Different levels of advancement perhaps ?

[saac]

13 minutes ago, neil phillips said:

Too late Jim too late for you 😂

Hey that is my life, like the old Chinese proverb says,

"by the time you see the bandwagon it is too late to get on it"  

Jim 

Edited November 18, 2022 by saac

[neil phillips]

Perhaps someone should invite Michio over. Or possibly Avi. Seth will just talk himself out of it. Neil definitely will 😂

[gorann]

I have not followed this thread for a while, but I think the answers are quite simple from a statistical point of view, based on the fact that it took about 4 billion years for life on this planet to by chance get the ability to communicate with any outer world. So the state of the matter is:

1) We are highly unlikely to be on the only planet with life, since life occurred on our planet shortly after it was formed.

2) Life that would  be able to send out electromagnetic signals that we could detect may be out there, but only maybe and they would be very few and therefore most likely far far away

3) And statistically they would be much too far away to have any ability to make a connection with us

Edited November 18, 2022 by gorann

[Paul M]

35 minutes ago, gorann said:

3) And statistically they would be much too far away to have any ability to make a connection with us

This is the crux of the matter, notwithstanding a monumental breakthrough with some kind of intergalactic Instagram, any signal we intercept will very likely be a ghost signal. Orphaned by the demise of its originating lifeform long, long ago. And our reply, equally orphaned long before it reaches the region of space where our ghost buddies once were.

Of course, any signal we do intercept might not have been sent intentionally. I remember reading, many years ago, that the first episode of Coronation St. would just be reaching Aldebaran. It's not such a huge distance and meaningful, if slow dialogue could take place. But would Aldebaranians really stick their head above the parapet and acknowledge receipt of Corry? They'd save their battery as we're obviously a species that is already into deep moral decline! 🤣

Edited November 18, 2022 by Paul M

[Mr Spock]

There could be life out there so different and so intelligent they might look upon us as we look upon ants. 

They could easily step on us either by accident or on purpose, or simply be not interested enough to even acknowledge our existence.

[Astro_Dad]

12 minutes ago, Mr Spock said:

There could be life out there so different and so intelligent they might look upon us as we look upon ants. 

They could easily step on us either by accident or on purpose, or simply be not interested enough to even acknowledge our existence.

Very true @Mr Spock and I think you must be quoting astrobiologist Dr Louisa Preston who said the same or similar I think earlier this month? 

Thanks for finally changing the title of this thread - I encouraged the OP to do that weeks ago! 

[Mr Spock]

4 minutes ago, Astro_Dad said:

I think you must be quoting astrobiologist Dr Louisa Preston who said the same or similar I think earlier this month?

I don't know who that is. I've been saying this for many years. I think she must be quoting me 

5 minutes ago, Astro_Dad said:

Thanks for finally changing the title of this thread - I encouraged the OP to do that weeks ago! 

It was irritating me 

[ian_bird]

The Kardashev scale is a method of measuring a civilization's level of technological advancement, based on the amount of energy a civilization is able to use for communication. The scale has three designated categories:

A Type I civilization—also called a planetary civilization—can use and store all of the energy which reaches its planet from its parent star.

A Type II civilization—also called a stellar civilization—can harness the total energy of its planet's parent star (the most popular hypothetical concept being the Dyson sphere—a device which would encompass the entire star and transfer its energy to the planet(s)).

A Type III civilization—also called a galactic civilization—can control energy on the scale of its entire host galaxy.

.

In a type II Khardashev civilisation a long time ago:

"Er, Dezhk!k!k, I'm sorry but I think I forgot to carry the one."

"I wouldn't worry about it. What difference could it possi..."

*WHUMMF*

 

Edited November 19, 2022 by ian_bird

[ollypenrice]

10 hours ago, saac said:

 Anyway, I think we are pretty good at this stuff  

Jim 

But we would think that because we are judging our own level of understanding with... ahem... our own level of understanding. 

Olly

 

Edited November 19, 2022 by ollypenrice

[Mandy D]

9 hours ago, Mr Spock said:

It was irritating me 

Well, this is wierd, there appears to be a longer thread out there still with the annoying title:

New title is still irritating as we now have the first word in mixed case and the rest in all caps! 😉

 

 

[Mr Spock]

I resisted the temptation to fix the upper case, which generally, is regarded as shouting  That annoys me too

[Mandy D]

12 hours ago, saac said:

I could not disagree more.  We can dream up any fanciful thoughts we wish to conjure; however, unfalsifiable hypothesis are not particularly productive propositions. Why for example would these technological advanced space aliens bother using any form of communication at all. We could hypothesis that they have advanced to such level that they thread themselves to very fabric of space itself, capable of sensing every ebb and flow of the universe.  Why would they even travel, they have no need, they have sufficient command of the underlying physics to compel space and time to materialise around them.  So once we accept that, we can give up trying to communicate, all that is left is to surrender to a paralysis of inaction.  Thankfully, more rationale thoughts prevail and, as our engineers above all know, we use what works. RF is a fundamental property of the universe, and it works;  ScrewFix  are showing nil stock of sub space temporal entangled gravitons until next Tuesday  

Jim 

We have to pose questions in order to answer them. A hypothesis which is currently unllasifiable may become falsifiable or, indeed proven correct, tomorrow. Did not the alchemists attempt to turn lead into gold? Can we not now do this, albeit by other means than chemical?

As an engineer I understand all too well that RF works and we engineers use that which works. However, scientists are in a different class to engineers and are looking for the unknown. Sometimes they postulate what might be and set out to search for it. Yes, this is usually founded on what is known and requires adjustment to make it fit with the facts, hence why we currently have a postulate regarding the existence of dark matter and dark energy, yet no-one has found lab samples of either so far. It may end up not existing and in it's place will be found new laws of physics or adjustments to existing ones.

It is very clear to anyone with a good grounding in physics that much remains to be discovered and that surprises await us. So, why not dream and consider what some of those things may be?

[Mandy D]

1 minute ago, Mr Spock said:

I resisted the temptation to fix the upper case, which generally, is regarded as shouting  That annoys me too

Yes, agrred, but for titles and emphasis it is seen as OK. So why not go with all-caps in your correction, or is that for empasis?

Did you see the other thread with the original title that I linked you to? It shows under "Similar Content" at the bottom of this thread.

[andrew s]

8 minutes ago, Mandy D said:

We have to pose questions in order to answer them. A hypothesis which is currently unllasifiable may become falsifiable or, indeed proven correct, tomorrow. Did not the alchemists attempt to turn lead into gold? Can we not now do this, albeit by other means than chemical?

Yes and no. Yes it's always legitimate but no it's not science. For it to be science you need to have your hypothesis make predictions which are at least in principle testable. 

Regards Andrew