Are we alone in the universe?

[Paul M]

I sometimes approach the idea of extraterrestrial civilisations by imagining them as supernovae, just longer lived.

They spring up randomly in distant galaxies and then fade away. If we chose to travel to one there'd be nothing but a remnant when we got there. 

If two supernovae coexisted, one in a galaxy in the Virgo supercluster and one in the Perseus supercluster, they'd never know each other's light. For either one to see the other's light would mean existing hundreds of millions of years later (I'm guessing at the distance between the Perseus and Virgo superclusters, google is stumped).

Would an extraterrestrial species travel such distances that we would actually meet? I think there is more likelihood of encountering a ghost signal from an extinct lifeform than there is of meeting one in the flesh but I'm not holding my breath for either eventuality.

[ollypenrice]

1 hour ago, andrew s said:

 

 

 

What I objected to was an implication that some types of intelligent lifeforms were in principle unimaginable. Maybe I misunderstood. 

Regards Andrew 

OK. So the question is refined, but perhaps it becomes rather academic? If you mean by 'in principle', imaginable by beings other than us,  there is precious little difference between your point and Michael's when he suggested that some life forms might be unimaginable. I assume he meant by us.

However, if you meant that we have reached the point of being able to imagine everything, I'd have to ask why you think this. Why have we reached this infinity when chimps have not?

Of course, I don't think you meant either of these things!  What I don't understand is where you draw the line between 'imaginable' and 'imaginable in principle.'  My view is that humans may not be capable of imagining all that can be imaginable in principle.  (Phew, it has taken me a long time to get to a point which I might, with more wit, have reached some time ago...)

Olly

[neil phillips]

Let's imagine it could be a lot simpler. Than the over thinking. That often goes on here. If and when that happens. these conversations might be seen as overindulgence. 

Edited November 20, 2022 by neil phillips

[saac]

2 hours ago, Alien 13 said:

I agree although it only takes a new tiny observation or new discovery to open the imagination floodgates... Look at the discovery of electricity that spawned our 21st century life and gave us Frankenstein too 😀

Alan

Totally agree Alan. Once we know or experience something we appear free to conjure up an extrapolation or association of that. I may be wrong but I don't think we can't imagine something before that. I wonder if it is in someway connect to language, not necessarily written or verbal, but the cognitive process of how we express thought thought.  

Jim 

[saac]

12 minutes ago, neil phillips said:

Let's imagine it could be a lot simpler. Than the over thinking. That often goes on here. If and when that happens. these conversations might be seen as overindulgence. 

They are exactly that neil, it's fun, and it's cloudy (here anyway). I can only imagine somewhere where it is not. 

Jim 

Edited November 20, 2022 by saac

[saac]

25 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

OK. So the question is refined, but perhaps it becomes rather academic? If you mean by 'in principle', imaginable by beings other than us,  there is precious little difference between your point and Michael's when he suggested that some life forms might be unimaginable. I assume he meant by us.

However, if you meant that we have reached the point of being able to imagine everything, I'd have to ask why you think this. Why have we reached this infinity when chimps have not?

Of course, I don't think you meant either of these things!  What I don't understand is where you draw the line between 'imaginable' and 'imaginable in principle.'  My view is that humans may not be capable of imagining all that can be imaginable in principle.  (Phew, it has taken me a long time to get to a point which I might, with more wit, have reached some time ago...)

Olly

I think it (limits of imagination) is a movable feast. We are at any one time capable of imagining all things that are imaginable as these are an extension of our known reality. The same limits apply to the chimp who experiences and knows a different reality and hence has a different set of imaginable things.  As time progresses, and our knowledge and experience advance, so to do the set of imaginable things. What Lord Kelvin (or his cousin Levin for that matter) could not imagine we can. 

Jim 

[neil phillips]

30 minutes ago, saac said:

They are exactly that neil, it's fun, and it's cloudy (here anyway). I can only imagine somewhere where it is not. 

Jim 

I know. Cloudy here too. Of course, it's fun. Just feels constructive to be mindful of being grounded sometimes perhaps. Life under the oceans of Europa. Those eyeless creatures that would surely exist similar to our very own deep dark ocean dwellers. Might be a comparison we will instantly relate to. Then we might be able pause imagination for a while. While the simple reality of universal nature stares us in the face. It could happen. I believe it could. From what I've learned of this world.

[ollypenrice]

45 minutes ago, saac said:

I think it (limits of imagination) is a movable feast. We are at any one time capable of imagining all things that are imaginable as these are an extension of our known reality. The same limits apply to the chimp who experiences and knows a different reality and hence has a different set of imaginable things.  As time progresses, and our knowledge and experience advance, so to do the set of imaginable things. What Lord Kelvin (or his cousin Levin for that matter) could not imagine we can. 

Jim 

I agree. I think it's wonderful that what is imaginable has expanded. Long may it continue. Two things can end this expansion: 1) reaching the point of being able to imagine the whole of reality and 2)  losing the necessary power of imagination. I don't like the sound of either of them. I'm not sure which would be worse but I suspect, in my heart of hearts, that they would be one and the same thing because I don't believe we can imagine all that there is.

1 hour ago, neil phillips said:

Let's imagine it could be a lot simpler. Than the over thinking. That often goes on here. If and when that happens. these conversations might be seen as overindulgence. 

Sure, but if it's a lot simpler, all you need to do is tell us how. How do we imagine things far outside our own experience?

Olly

Edited November 20, 2022 by ollypenrice
Clarification

[neil phillips]

5 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

I agree. I think it's wonderful that what is imaginable has expanded. Long may it continue. Two things can end this expansion: 1) reaching the point of being able to imagine the whole of reality and 2)  losing the necessary power of imagination. I don't like the sound of either of them. I'm not sure which would be worse but I suspect, in my heart of hearts, that they would be one and the same thing because I don't believe we can imagine all that there is.

Sure, but if it's a lot simpler, all you need to do is tell us how. How do we imagine things far outside our own experience?

Olly

Thats just it. I am not saying all of course. But some extraterrestrial life might not be that far outside our own experience as much as you think. Universal nature might connect us in more ways than you give it credit for. I cannot prove this. But I can imagine too. 

[Astro_Dad]

I suppose there aren’t many corners of the internet where this sort of intellectual indulgence can happen - it’s certainly been a welcome background distraction checking in periodically to see the developments as the day to day of kids, jobs and everything else goes on in parallel…although has become a bit serious on the intellectual sparring side at times. 

I wonder if the OP @goddasgirl2021 has been following? and more importantly is any closer to enlightenment on her original question, or more fundamentally slightly the wiser on the varying perspectives on this rather profound question. 

I am currently taking a class online, in Astronomy, it is  on  confronting the Big Question???. Our we alone in the universe?

[Alien 13]

As an alien myself I don't have constraints on imagination...I imagine.

Intelligent life created from technology rather than nature.

Life that lives for billions of years and runs so slowly that we would consider it inert.

Life on every Planet and Moon in our solar system.

Life on the Sun.

Life in empty space.

Alan

 

[ollypenrice]

Just now, neil phillips said:

Thats just it. I am not saying all of course. But some extraterrestrial life might not be that far outside our own experience as much as you think. Universal nature might connect us in more ways than you give it credit for. I cannot prove this. But I can imagine too. 

I don't think that extraterrestrial life has to be all that different from our own life. I think it might well be quite similar.  However, I also think it might be utterly and completely different. These are not alternatives: the universe, spacious hotel that it is, might have room for both.

Regarding communication, though, I have to come back to the point that we cannot meaningfully communicate with chimps who are incredibly similar to ourselves. Surely this must give us pause. We are far too used to American actors pretending to be aliens and being even more like us than chimps! 

Olly

[ollypenrice]

12 minutes ago, Astro_Dad said:

I suppose there aren’t many corners of the internet where this sort of intellectual indulgence can happen - it’s certainly been a welcome background distraction checking in periodically to see the developments as the day to day of kids, jobs and everything else goes on in parallel…although has become a bit serious on the intellectual sparring side at times. 

I wonder if the OP @goddasgirl2021 has been following? and more importantly is any closer to enlightenment on her original question, or more fundamentally slightly the wiser on the varying perspectives on this rather profound question. 

I am currently taking a class online, in Astronomy, it is  on  confronting the Big Question???. Our we alone in the universe?

Is the practice of thinking indulgent on a forum devoted to astronomy?    I'd have thought that it might even be regarded as acceptable on a forum devoted to shopping!

lly

[saac]

2 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

I agree. I think it's wonderful that what is imaginable has expanded. Long may it continue. Two things can end this expansion: 1) reaching the point of being able to imagine the whole of reality and 2)  losing the necessary power of imagination. I don't like the sound of either of them. I'm not sure which would be worse but I suspect, in my heart of hearts, that they would be one and the same thing because I don't believe we can imagine all that there is.

Sure, but if it's a lot simpler, all you need to do is tell us how. How do we imagine things far outside our own experience?

Olly

I've always been of the opinion Olly that we do have the capacity to know all things, in so far as they are discoverable.  Without straying to where we should not stray (imagination or otherwise) I have a feeling it is our purpose to fully know the universe. I've never dwelt on the implications of what that would mean for us, but I guess I share your concern. Euphoria, fear, sadness in equal measure perhaps.  Isn't it curious though that we are driven to the core of our being to strive to understand.  Is it all just to stave off boredom, is the curse of our cognitive abilities an insatiable curiosity? 

Jim  

Edited November 20, 2022 by saac

[Alien 13]

32 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

Regarding communication, though, I have to come back to the point that we cannot meaningfully communicate with chimps who are incredibly similar to ourselves. Surely this must give us pause. 

Olly

We do ok with dogs though, actually far more than ok and to a lesser extent cats 😀 and its not just one way communication.

Alan

 

Edited November 20, 2022 by Alien 13

[neil phillips]

22 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

I don't think that extraterrestrial life has to be all that different from our own life. I think it might well be quite similar.  However, I also think it might be utterly and completely different. These are not alternatives: the universe, spacious hotel that it is, might have room for both.

Regarding communication, though, I have to come back to the point that we cannot meaningfully communicate with chimps who are incredibly similar to ourselves. Surely this must give us pause. We are far too used to American actors pretending to be aliens and being even more like us than chimps! 

Olly

Yes, there is room for both agreed. In many ways we are very different from chimps too. Who knows we may be more similar intellectually to some alien beings. Than chimps are to us.

The others so completely different of course could be a bridge too far. But even then, would it be truly impossible to find some common ground. There is no precedent so hard to be sure either way. 

But going back to chimps. dogs and humans communicate with each other in some very subtle and surprising ways. There can be a very deep intellectual connection that goes far beyond just empathy. Dogs observe our behaviour. And get many surprising cues from us. That we don't even realize we are giving off. Getting ready to take the dog for a walk. Go to get your jacket. And the dog is already standing there with lead in mouth waiting to go. Turns out prior to a walk humans often glance at the clock. Often take one last look at their mobile phone. Giving the dog all the cues, it needs to know. We are both now going for a walk. No words have been uttered. Yet intellectual synchronicity of sorts is happening all the time.

saw that on a pet documentary on netflix. Move over Ted talks

 

[neil phillips]

17 minutes ago, Alien 13 said:

We do ok with dogs though, actually far more than ok and to a lesser extent cats 😀 and its not just one way communication.

Alan

 

I wrote what I just said before I saw your post.

What's that about chance

Chance makes a plaything of a man's life

Senna 

 

[Alien 13]

17 minutes ago, neil phillips said:

Yes, there is room for both agreed. In many ways we are very different from chimps too. Who knows we may be more similar intellectually to some alien beings. Than chimps are to us.

The others so completely different of course could be a bridge too far. But even then, would it be truly impossible to find some common ground. There is no precedent so hard to be sure either way. 

But going back to chimps. dogs and humans communicate with each other in some very subtle and surprising ways. There can be a very deep intellectual connection that goes far beyond just empathy. Dogs observe our behaviour. And get many surprising cues from us. That we don't even realize we are giving off. Getting ready to take the dog for a walk. Go to get your jacket. And the dog is already standing there with lead in mouth waiting to go. Turns out prior to a walk humans often glance at the clock. Often take one last look at their mobile phone. Giving the dog all the cues, it needs to know. We are both now going for a walk. No words have been uttered. Yet intellectual synchronicity of sorts is happening all the time.

saw that on a pet documentary on netflix. Move over Ted talks

 

My dog not only used cues but reflecting them too for example by looking at the clock herself to remind me it was dinner time..

Alan

[Astro_Dad]

1 hour ago, ollypenrice said:

Is the practice of thinking indulgent on a forum devoted to astronomy?    I'd have thought that it might even be regarded as acceptable on a forum devoted to shopping!

I certainly hope not, and thats not what was implied as it’s hopefully the expected standard given the subject area- there are not many places where debates in astro can meander in this way (clearly) but my comment was really in response to anothers suggesting indulgence or over thinking in this particular thread - surely that wouldn’t happen ! 

[neil phillips]

19 minutes ago, Alien 13 said:

My dog not only used cues but reflecting them too for example by looking at the clock herself to remind me it was dinner time..

Alan

All very interesting and quite cool actually

[saac]

1 hour ago, neil phillips said:

Yes, there is room for both agreed. In many ways we are very different from chimps too. Who knows we may be more similar intellectually to some alien beings. Than chimps are to us.

The others so completely different of course could be a bridge too far. But even then, would it be truly impossible to find some common ground. There is no precedent so hard to be sure either way. 

But going back to chimps. dogs and humans communicate with each other in some very subtle and surprising ways. There can be a very deep intellectual connection that goes far beyond just empathy. Dogs observe our behaviour. And get many surprising cues from us. That we don't even realize we are giving off. Getting ready to take the dog for a walk. Go to get your jacket. And the dog is already standing there with lead in mouth waiting to go. Turns out prior to a walk humans often glance at the clock. Often take one last look at their mobile phone. Giving the dog all the cues, it needs to know. We are both now going for a walk. No words have been uttered. Yet intellectual synchronicity of sorts is happening all the time.

saw that on a pet documentary on netflix. Move over Ted talks

 

There was a fascinating article in last month's edition of National Geographic on animal communication. I'll try to find the article again because some of the findings were astonishing regarding the depth of what was being communicated.  

Re dog walking and reading cues. With me it's my little Westie giving the cues. She paws me on the leg (referential signalling) sits and stares up at me. We then go through a list of things she may want, food, up, out, walk?  Sometimes it's none of these. This is where it gets quite funny as she sits staring intently at me as I try to guess what she wants.  I'm thinking of trying out some of those colour coded talking buttons dog's can paw to say what they want. 

Jim

Edited November 20, 2022 by saac

[neil phillips]

6 hours ago, saac said:

There was a fascinating article in last month's edition of National Geographic on animal communication. I'll try to find the article again because some of the findings were astonishing regarding the depth of what was being communicated.  

Re dog walking and reading cues. With me it's my little Westie giving the cues. She paws me on the leg (referential signalling) sits and stares up at me. We then go through a list of things she may want, food, up, out, walk?  Sometimes it's none of these. This is where it gets quite funny as she sits staring intently at me as I try to guess what she wants.  I'm thinking of trying out some of those colour coded talking buttons dog's can paw to say what they want. 

Jim

The implications of this particular part of the discussion are obvious. What if we are the advanced Aliens. And the dog is us. Communication is still happening. Of course, we are not discussing relativity with the dog. But the level of communication between us and a more advanced species would still be on a more advanced footing, than between us and the dog.

Because our IQ is higher. More meaningful communication is likely. Even if it's mostly more meaningful for us.

The take home is yes. on a limited capacity (us being the limit) Communication would likely still happen. and on a deeper level than it is between us and the dog. Dolphin etc. Let's at least try and not keep finding reasons for why not. when in fact there can be many reasons why much might be possible in any interaction with ET. There will be likely many levels of intelligence with different ET species. Many different levels of communication. And also, danger.

How we get this breakthrough communication is another question. At least people like Avi Loeb is looking for ET with project Galileo. 

SETI Should continue in my opinion. We should continue to look for biological life in our solar system (proof of concept) Jupiter's moons should be studied more. Mars ect.

Edited November 21, 2022 by neil phillips

[ollypenrice]

10 hours ago, neil phillips said:

Yes, there is room for both agreed. In many ways we are very different from chimps too. Who knows we may be more similar intellectually to some alien beings. Than chimps are to us.

The others so completely different of course could be a bridge too far. But even then, would it be truly impossible to find some common ground. There is no precedent so hard to be sure either way. 

But going back to chimps. dogs and humans communicate with each other in some very subtle and surprising ways. There can be a very deep intellectual connection that goes far beyond just empathy. Dogs observe our behaviour. And get many surprising cues from us. That we don't even realize we are giving off. Getting ready to take the dog for a walk. Go to get your jacket. And the dog is already standing there with lead in mouth waiting to go. Turns out prior to a walk humans often glance at the clock. Often take one last look at their mobile phone. Giving the dog all the cues, it needs to know. We are both now going for a walk. No words have been uttered. Yet intellectual synchronicity of sorts is happening all the time.

saw that on a pet documentary on netflix. Move over Ted talks

 

When I was in my teens my father and I set out, systematically, to find out if there was any way at all that we could suggest going for a walk without our dog spotting it. There wasn't. There just wasn't. We never succeeded. I do believe there's something in this.

Olly

[ollypenrice]

A surprising thought: might high technology adversely effect the evolution of high intelligence?  Might higher intelligence evolve without technology than with it?  

There is a debate in evolutionary biology about whether human evolution has stopped, slowed down or speeded up. One school says that we have learned to modify our environment, using technology, so that we no longer need to adapt to it. This makes me wonder whether, in 'outsourcing' many of our mental functions to computers, we have removed a key selection pressure driving the evolution of intelligence. We might argue that the use of IT drives a new kinds of mental function among the engineers, and it might, but they are a minority who might not out-breed the computer-dependent majority.

It's an entertaining thought that technology might put an upper limit on the evolution of intelligence. Usually it's assumed that high technology goes with high intelligence. Maybe not!

Olly

[Alien 13]

I am convinced that in a "first contact" situation here on Earth that a dog might do a better job than us at "reading" an Alien and communication 😀

Alan

Edited November 21, 2022 by Alien 13