Have just been gifted a HEQ5 pro, where do I go from here?

[Olli]

Hi everyone, 

To keep the story short in a drastic turn of events I have just been gifted a HEQ5 pro which I’m over the moon with.  My plan for this mount now is going to be for a permanent imaging set up. I have  a WO73 and today just ordered a flatner and an adapter for my DSLR. 
 

the one thing I’m a bit confused with is guiding will it be possible to start imaging with not using a guide scope for a while to get used to the mount and everything else? Bit overwhelmed . Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[PeterCPC]

If you can get your Polar Alignment spot on then you should be ok for reasonably long unguided shots. I know some people have managed 500secs or so with an HEQ5. I've never had one so cannot comment.

[StuartT]

17 minutes ago, Olli said:

Hi everyone, 

To keep the story short in a drastic turn of events I have just been gifted a HEQ5 pro which I’m over the moon with.  My plan for this mount now is going to be for a permanent imaging set up. I have  a WO73 and today just ordered a flatner and an adapter for my DSLR. 
 

the one thing I’m a bit confused with is guiding will it be possible to start imaging with not using a guide scope for a while to get used to the mount and everything else? Bit overwhelmed . Any help would be greatly appreciated!

How long you can go unguided depends on your focal length. That scope is 430mm, I think so not all that long. You should be good for a minute or so unguided easily.

I have an EQ6R Pro (the bigger brother) and use a longer scope (808mm), but that can only really manage 30 sec before getting elongated stars.

Just try it out with a bunch of test exposure lengths. But bear in mind that some subs will be better than others (as mounts don't behave completely regularly). So I'd advise taking several at each exposure length, then zoom right in on the stars to make sure they're still round. That way, you'll see how long you can go

[Clarkey]

Simple answer is Yes. Without guiding it is difficult to assess how well the mount tracks but at a relatively short FL you should be OK. Keep you subs short and be prepared to discard some and you should be fine. Try it and see how you get on.

I do find my HEQ5 does need a bit of regular fettling to keep it running well.

[Alan White]

Nice gifting that

 

[vlaiv]

Mount performance won't depend on focal length used, nor is polar alignment only source of the error.

Main source of the error with a mount like HEQ5 is periodic error. There is a lot of sample to sample variability in how much periodic error there is for any given HEQ5 specimen. It is not uncommon to have 30-45" Peak to peak error (that error happens over about 10 minutes, that is whole cycle - so half of it is about 5 minutes - and that is "one way" 30-45" drift - you can easily have 6-9" per minute of drift)

Depending on your working resolution (that is combination of focal length and pixel size / with any binning accounted for) - you will see more or less elongation in your subs depending on your exposure length. Even with short focal length scope periodic error can show easily if we use camera with small pixels (which are popular/dominant now).

I agree that sensible exposure length is about 30s to a minute before you start to see serious trailing.

Bottom line - start unguided. Higher in declination the target is - you'll be able to do longer exposures without trailing (if you see large trailing - choose high DEC target until you get guider setup). If you see trailing - don't panic, that is sort of normal for mounts like that if you don't guide. It is best to orient sensor so that you know direction of RA and DEC in the image (most people orient RA to be horizontal). This way you will be able to tell if your polar alignment is not the best or if it is down to periodic error.

Drift in DEC is due to poor polar alignment, drift in RA is due to periodic error.

One thing that might happen to your images is walking noise. This sometimes happens due to slow frame to frame drift (either in RA or DEC), and solution is to dither which requires guiding. Again - don't be alarmed by this.

[Olli]

Thanks everyone for the advice has been really helpful. When guiding I assume you will need a laptop for this to be able to work? I have seen you can buy mini pcs and can remote onto them, would this be a good idea? What would be the easiest soloutio, would like to try and keep it as clean as possible without too many wires.  This is all new to me so a lot to take in.

[Olli]

5 hours ago, PeterCPC said:

If you can get your Polar Alignment spot on then you should be ok for reasonably long unguided shots. I know some people have managed 500secs or so with an HEQ5. I've never had one so cannot comment.

Thanks  Peter, polar alignment is something I’m a bit worried about but I guess it takes practice. Will try and read up about a bit more.

[AstroNebulee]

5 minutes ago, Olli said:

Thanks everyone for the advice has been really helpful. When guiding I assume you will need a laptop for this to be able to work? I have seen you can buy mini pcs and can remote onto them, would this be a good idea? What would be the easiest soloutio, would like to try and keep it as clean as possible without too many wires.  This is all new to me so a lot to take in.

Definitely asiair pro or plus in my opinion, simple to use, helps PA, user friendly and one system running everything. There are other options but this just works out of the box and controlled via tablet or phone. 👍

Edited April 29, 2022 by AstroNebulee
Addition

[david_taurus83]

Your almost there with a full setup so I would put hand in pocket and fork out for a guide camera and small guide scope. It will make things so much easier from the get go. With a guide setup you can use Sharpcap for polar alignment which will be far more accurate than eyeballing through the mounts polar scope. Apart from Sharpcap which is £10 for a years licence, all software is free that you need to guide and image. With a DSLR I would recommend APT for starting out. 

 

Edit: Here's is what I would recommend. 

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by david_taurus83

[alacant]

2 hours ago, Olli said:

mini pcs and can remote onto them

+1

Keep it simple. Control it using your 'phone. 

Good luck and here's hoping it's not too much of a struggle.

Edited April 29, 2022 by alacant

[Padraic M]

Nice gift! I think you should sell it to me and save yourself the bother of astrophotography. 🙂

All the important points are given above. Whether you go with ASIAir, mini PC or haul your laptop outside, you will need a EQDIR cable to connect to the HEQ5. Lynx Astro ones are great. Just make sure you order the one for HEQ5 Pro as the mount models have different connectors.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/astronomy-cables-leads-accessories/lynx-astro-ftdi-eqdir-usb-adapter-for-sky-watcher-eq5-pro-heq5-syntrek-pro-az-eq5-gt-az-eq6-gt-and-eq8-mounts.html

My objection to ASIAir is that it locks you into ZWO products. Now that they've launched their own mount I wonder will they even lock out the Skywatcher mounts in a future version??? I use a Windows mini PC running NINA for capture control, but as mentioned above APT is great for DSLRs. I've used APT with a DSLR, but I believe NINA also supports them but it may depend on make/model.

You can polar align with your imaging PC. It's easy if it's a dedicated astro camera, but as you have a DSLR you need to jump through a few hoops to get SharpCap to work with it. There's some discussion elsewhere on the web on how to do that.

I'd suggest that you start with what you have and use your laptop until you know your way around; keep your subs short and stack them with DSS. Next priority would be to get yourself a guide cam and scope asap. They're not expensive and are a huge step up in performance. After that I'd look into an ASIAir or mini PC to avoid taking your laptop out into the cold and dew. The same EQDIR cable will work. In the meantime get a big plastic storage box to keep your laptop in while outside.

[StuartT]

6 hours ago, vlaiv said:

Mount performance won't depend on focal length used, nor is polar alignment only source of the error.

Well, obviously mount performance won't depend on the focal length, but the effects of its performance on the image will be, as the more 'zoomed in' you are, the more you'll see small errors

[Olli]

1 hour ago, david_taurus83 said:

Your almost there with a full setup so I would put hand in pocket and fork out for a guide camera and small guide scope. It will make things so much easier from the get go. With a guide setup you can use Sharpcap for polar alignment which will be far more accurate than eyeballing through the mounts polar scope. Apart from Sharpcap which is £10 for a years licence, all software is free that you need to guide and image. With a DSLR I would recommend APT for starting out. 

 

Edit: Here's is what I would recommend. 

 

Thanks for the photos I was looking at the guide scope seems like a good choice for the price I will keep looking . 

[ollypenrice]

49 minutes ago, StuartT said:

Well, obviously mount performance won't depend on the focal length, but the effects of its performance on the image will be, as the more 'zoomed in' you are, the more you'll see small errors

I think Vlaiv's point is that it isn't focal length which determines tracking tolerance. Rather, it's resolution and this is made up from the combination of focal length and pixel size. You can have low resolution from a long focal length and large pixels and you can have high resolution from a short focal length and small pixels.

In the past pixels tended to be on the large side and of a fairly consistent size (around 6 to 9 microns). So in those days focal length tended to be the dominant variable.  Now pixels come in a vast range of sizes from large to tiny, so focal length is not as reliable a shorthand for resolution as it used to be.

Olly

Edited April 29, 2022 by ollypenrice

[Olli]

1 hour ago, Padraic M said:

Nice gift! I think you should sell it to me and save yourself the bother of astrophotography. 🙂

All the important points are given above. Whether you go with ASIAir, mini PC or haul your laptop outside, you will need a EQDIR cable to connect to the HEQ5. Lynx Astro ones are great. Just make sure you order the one for HEQ5 Pro as the mount models have different connectors.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/astronomy-cables-leads-accessories/lynx-astro-ftdi-eqdir-usb-adapter-for-sky-watcher-eq5-pro-heq5-syntrek-pro-az-eq5-gt-az-eq6-gt-and-eq8-mounts.html

My objection to ASIAir is that it locks you into ZWO products. Now that they've launched their own mount I wonder will they even lock out the Skywatcher mounts in a future version??? I use a Windows mini PC running NINA for capture control, but as mentioned above APT is great for DSLRs. I've used APT with a DSLR, but I believe NINA also supports them but it may depend on make/model.

You can polar align with your imaging PC. It's easy if it's a dedicated astro camera, but as you have a DSLR you need to jump through a few hoops to get SharpCap to work with it. There's some discussion elsewhere on the web on how to do that.

I'd suggest that you start with what you have and use your laptop until you know your way around; keep your subs short and stack them with DSS. Next priority would be to get yourself a guide cam and scope asap. They're not expensive and are a huge step up in performance. After that I'd look into an ASIAir or mini PC to avoid taking your laptop out into the cold and dew. The same EQDIR cable will work. In the meantime get a big plastic storage box to keep your laptop in while outside.

This is incredibly helpful. I have heard a lot about Nina after looking at videos. Everyone seems to use it. I will have to research a bit more on the pcs. 

[Pitch Black Skies]

+1 for AAP

It's worth it's weight in gold. Makes life so simple when starting out.

My only grievance is that it doesn't allow PEC training, so your guiding is forever compromised.

[Olli]

8 minutes ago, Pitch Black Skies said:

+1 for AAP

It's worth it's weight in gold. Makes life so simple when starting out.

My only grievance is that it doesn't allow PEC training, so your guiding is forever compromised.

Can I ask what PEC training is ? AAP sounds like a firm favourite will definitely see if I can get one. 

[Olli]

1 hour ago, alacant said:

+1

Keep it simple. Control it using your 'phone. 

Good luck and here's hoping it's not too much of a struggle.

Thank you, will hopefully get to show some first photos soon!

[Pitch Black Skies]

7 hours ago, vlaiv said:

nor is polar alignment only source of the error

Do you think cone error can have much of an impact on star trailing?

I corrected mine last night, it was way off. 

I had the mount pointing at Polaris, then with the RA level I centered Polaris in the reticle. As I moved the RA in opposite direction Polaris moved rapidly out of the field of view. With minor adjustments to my dovetail screws I was gradually able to get the star to stay centered through a whole 180° turn of the RA. It was a tedious job.

It makes me though, if targets are behaving like that when the RA is turning, is it possible this is putting my guiding under pressure?

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I think this might be useful to anyone reading.

[Clarkey]

14 minutes ago, Olli said:

Can I ask what PEC training is

PEC training is teaching the mount or software the periodic errors so it can pre-empt errors in tracking. I use PHD2 to guide (with a mini PC) and this has a predictive PEC algorithm that 'learns' the periodic error for the mount to improve guiding performance.

Just for info I use a Mele Quieter 2 mini PC to run my set up. The advantage of a mini PC is you can choose what software to run - I use NINA and PHD2. However, it does take a fair bit of setting up to get it all working. The other good point about this mini PC is that it seems to have a pretty good wifi range.

[Pitch Black Skies]

24 minutes ago, Olli said:

Can I ask what PEC training is ? AAP sounds like a firm favourite will definitely see if I can get one. 

Well worth it. I started with my laptop, an EQDIR cable and NINA. It's excellent but I found the AAP much more user friendly and very neat and tidy in regards to wiring.

Your going to need an EQDIR cable either way, so maybe get that first and you can explore NINA or some other software before deciding on getting an AAP.

PEC training is periodic error correction training. Check out this great video from Astrobloke. He explains it very well.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Pitch Black Skies

[vlaiv]

54 minutes ago, Pitch Black Skies said:

Do you think cone error can have much of an impact on star trailing?

I don't think it does.

If you are attached to a platform that perfectly tracks - it will not matter which direction you are looking at - you will compensate earth's rotation perfectly.

Cone error is related to telescope not pointing where you want it to point - and not RA being pointed to Polaris or tracking being at perfect rate.

Simple star trackers work like that - they just track the sky - and don't care where your DSLR is pointing. You can have ball head attached to it and DSLR sitting on top of ball head pointing in arbitrary direction (which is equivalent to huge cone error).

[Olli]

Thanks everyone for all the help. Still feel a bit overwhelmed by it all lots to take in. Will probably have to write a list what I’ll need In the future.. but for now though to get started with imaging what targets do you recommend I should try and shoot for the first time this season?  For using a dslr I’ve seen that darks and lights are used. Is this a necessary process? Do you then stack it all with the others?

[Pitch Black Skies]

28 minutes ago, Olli said:

Thanks everyone for all the help. Still feel a bit overwhelmed by it all lots to take in. Will probably have to write a list what I’ll need In the future.. but for now though to get started with imaging what targets do you recommend I should try and shoot for the first time this season?  For using a dslr I’ve seen that darks and lights are used. Is this a necessary process? Do you then stack it all with the others?

You'll see this mentioned a lot throughout threads and it still rings true, and that's to read 'Every Photon Counts' before deciding to buy anything. It will give you an understanding of what equipment you need, some seasonal targets to image, and how to image in general. It's very useful for when you're just starting out as it will answer a lot of your questions.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/books/making-every-photon-count-steve-richards.html