New 'Universe' Series on BBC2 Tonight

[Macavity]

1 hour ago, City9Town0 said:

CERN visits.....
A physics teacher I know that took twenty CERN visits from the UK received this....

 

Gosh! To be honest, I kind-of "lost my thread" with that? But actually, it's QUITE HARD
to be a Science Lab Tour Guide? I GENUINELY sympathise with those who "down-vote"
the CERN Tour Guides - But we are (I was!) "just human"--  We are "Nerds" etc. etc. 🥳

Many years ago, I did the "tour guide" thing. Most of it was "well received"! But then
I got a local journalist? I asked if he would like a "demo" of my "Whiz-bang" Physics
Stuff? "If I really must", he said?! But he was ultimately *impressed* by The Science! 😎

"Blind them with SCIENCE", I say! 🤣

Edited November 30, 2021 by Macavity

[Macavity]

1 hour ago, JamesF said:

Yeah, that Barry Lineker is well overpaid, I reckon.

LOL!! But sometimes, I think it "does no harm" to give these
multi-millionair Scientists a bit o' stick? lol. As to the: "Why
don't you turn over"! (If you don't like Cox)? As "scientists"
it's no bad thing to have *opinions* how we are portrayed? 😉

Edited November 30, 2021 by Macavity

[andrew s]

11 minutes ago, Macavity said:

 As "scientists" it is
no bad thing to have OPINIONS on how we are portrayed? 😉

I always used "Brains" from Thunderbirds as a role model! 😊😉

Regards Andrew 

[Whirlwind]

14 hours ago, saac said:

There is the incentive for current S6 pupils considering their university options, good to see a real scientist holding their own with the "gliterati"    That said, I consider that Cox is underpaid  though compared to the other presenters. 

Unfortunately this is rather 'romanticised' when faced with reality.  B Cox is paid this amount as a presenter (noting it also probably excludes travel expenses etc) not as a scientist.  

In the 'normal' astronomy science world.  You have post docs that will earn £30k as a starting salary (maybe increasing to £35k with experience).  These are all 1-3 year contracts so if you win one place you are almost immediately looking for the next post.  You are also competing with people that to put it mildly are obsessed so you to maintain an research output to give you a chance of a permanent job you are looking at putting 60-70 hours (if not more) during these placements.  The general wisdom is you are expected to have done 4-5 posts docs before you'd even be considered for a permanent position (with the exception if you win an award that brings in a substantial amount of money for the Uni - in effect they are bribing you to not take the award elsewhere).  If you are then 'lucky' enough to get a permanent position then that's a £40k - £50k salary.  Again if you win enough you may then end up with a professorship (£100k+).  It's a very shallow sided pyramid though - there are lots of post-docs, a lot less permanent positions, and a lot less professorships. And even the latter will be paid less than B. Cox for presenting a couple of series of programs.  What is really needed is a much more structured career progression that, arguably, is less exploitative.

To put it into context you can earn more as a HGV driver these days (£50k with experience) or even a night shift manager at a DHL warehouse (£40k advertised in Leicestershire recently).  You can even just become a teacher £30k starting (but permanent position).  Hence holding up the above salaries as something a child could achieve is not realistic (it's a bit like telling a child that by learning to sing they could earn as much as Rihanna etc) - yes it is possible but there are 100,000's of people that are excellent at it but ultimately don't because their 'face/voice doesn't fit'.

B Cox earnt enough in those couple of shows to fund 7ish post docs for a year etc which is what I find most galling about this sort of thing.

21 hours ago, Macavity said:

But PART of me still HOPES? To *some* extent, international organisations
like CERN (Hey, it was not perfect!) try hard! To be frank, my return to the
UK (UK science!) was something of a personal... and "political" disaster. 😑

The visible presence of UK Science is still about (BBC) "posh people"? lol.
But if I can inspire anyone to try to be a (Thicko? lol!) Particle Physicist! 🥳

I'd always support in getting more people into science - it's just a shame that the reality is that most next generation Einstein's are put off before they even get onto the ladder.

[AstroNebulee]

Well, I like the programme 😊

[saac]

10 hours ago, Whirlwind said:

Unfortunately this is rather 'romanticised' when faced with reality.  B Cox is paid this amount as a presenter (noting it also probably excludes travel expenses etc) not as a scientist.  

You can even just become a teacher £30k starting (but permanent position).  Hence holding up the above salaries as something a child could achieve is not realistic (it's a bit like telling a child that by learning to sing they could earn as much as Rihanna etc) - yes it is possible but there are 100,000's of people that are excellent at it but ultimately don't because their 'face/voice doesn't fit'.

B Cox earnt enough in those couple of shows to fund 7ish post docs for a year etc which is what I find most galling about this sort of thing.

I'd always support in getting more people into science - it's just a shame that the reality is that most next generation Einstein's are put off before they even get onto the ladder.

Nothing romanticised about it whatsoever . I was referring to the possibility that a career in science/ technology can be as equally glamourous and desirable as any other and that is the positive message kids need to and do hear.    Wow , "just become a teacher"   -  there is motivation for you lol.    Thankfully, you are wrong  about the next generation being put off , certainly has not been my experience .  But hey I am "just a teacher" lol .

Jim 

Edited December 1, 2021 by saac

[Whirlwind]

1 hour ago, saac said:

Nothing romanticised about it whatsoever . I was referring to the possibility that a career in science/ technology can be as equally glamourous and desirable as any other and that is the positive message kids need to and do hear.    Wow , "just become a teacher"   -  there is motivation for you lol.    Thankfully, you are wrong  about the next generation being put off , certainly has not been my experience .  But hey I am "just a teacher" lol .

Jim 

I didn't mean to sound condescending to teachers, I apologise if it came across that way.  What I was trying to express is that once 'reality' comes into the frame and there has to be a choice about what you want to do then the lack of certainty will drive most away from doing pure science work (for most children this reality is unlikely to be known, they just the see the glamourous side etc).  Simply that being a teacher is more stable as a job and ultimately tends to guarantee a career whereas the post-doc path is littered with people that for one reason or another didn't get the same opportunities to make it permanent.  This ultimately leads to them having to find another career and generally work there way from the 'bottom', so losing up to 10 years behind their peers in the 'replacement' career.  These may well have been excellent scientists but for one reason or another simply didn't get the piece of luck they needed. 

[saac]

1 hour ago, Whirlwind said:

I didn't mean to sound condescending to teachers, I apologise if it came across that way.  What I was trying to express is that once 'reality' comes into the frame and there has to be a choice about what you want to do then the lack of certainty will drive most away from doing pure science work (for most children this reality is unlikely to be known, they just the see the glamourous side etc).  Simply that being a teacher is more stable as a job and ultimately tends to guarantee a career whereas the post-doc path is littered with people that for one reason or another didn't get the same opportunities to make it permanent.  This ultimately leads to them having to find another career and generally work there way from the 'bottom', so losing up to 10 years behind their peers in the 'replacement' career.  These may well have been excellent scientists but for one reason or another simply didn't get the piece of luck they needed. 

Sorry Whirlwind I didn't mean to come across like that either, so no need to apologise. I get what you were saying and I'd agree if these things were measured just on a remuneration basis.   I don't have any experience or knowledge of what real science careers, promotion prospect etc are like (my background for the greater part was engineering) so I'll happily defer to folk like Chris Macavity and yourself.   I just wanted to get across that people like Prof Cox  really do have a massive impact on attracting youngsters to STEM  careers/study.  For all that his detractors may berate him, Brian Cox is in my opinion an excellent communicator who talks not only with authority but passion and kids are really good at spotting that.  

 

Jim 

Edited December 1, 2021 by saac

[saac]

I wonder if what we are really missing is perhaps what many of us (in UK at least) grew up with.  Where is the weekly programming of science and  technology,?  Come on BBC a return to the days of Tomorrows World  or decent Panorama /Horizon  documentaries.   I'd hazard a guess that these were the programmes that influenced many to follow into science and engineering.   As much as I love watching the "Repair Shop"  that doesn't really cut it . 

Jim 

Edited December 1, 2021 by saac

[JamesF]

5 minutes ago, saac said:

I wonder if what we are really missing is perhaps what many of us (in UK at least) grew up with.  Where is the weekly programming of science and  technology,?  Come on BBC a return to the days of Tomorrows World  or decent Panorama /Horizon  documentaries.   I'd hazard a guess that these were the programmes that influenced many to follow into science and engineering.   As much as I love watching the "Repair Shop"  that doesn't really cut it . 

Also series such as James Burke's "Connections".  Barring the occasional unfortunate excesses of 1970's fashion I reckon those programmes could be broadcast pretty much verbatim today and still be really engaging.  I really should try to get hold of a copy of "The Day the Universe Changed", too.

James

[johninderby]

I remember attending one of James Burke’s lectures in Toronto many years ago. Very interesting and plenty of humourus anecdotes as well. A couple of hours well spent. 👍🏻

[Whirlwind]

10 hours ago, saac said:

I wonder if what we are really missing is perhaps what many of us (in UK at least) grew up with.  Where is the weekly programming of science and  technology,?  Come on BBC a return to the days of Tomorrows World  or decent Panorama /Horizon  documentaries.   I'd hazard a guess that these were the programmes that influenced many to follow into science and engineering.   As much as I love watching the "Repair Shop"  that doesn't really cut it . 

Jim 

I'd agree.  I guess they cost more money than the 'tripe' that is the "One Show" or "The Wheel".  Educational programs (doesn't just need to be science) is generally left for late at night or BBC2/3/4 etc.  Just replacing one episode of the One Show each week with something a bit more aspirational would improve things considerably.

[Macavity]

On 01/12/2021 at 09:13, Whirlwind said:

Unfortunately this is rather 'romanticised' when faced with reality. 

I'll content myself with equating some scientist sentiments expressed
on social media as "being controversial" - Great for self-publicity!?!
I found this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_controversy
Controversies between scientific and non-scientific ideas are not within
the realm of science and are not true scientific controversies. Aha! lol. 😎

I take comfort in: Trip Advisor CERN Tour Review
It can be worth checking out LOW Star ratings. 😸
But it is still a workplace, despite laudable efforts
to build Exhibition Centres... Organise Tours etc.

I recall the surprise expressed by one *Journalist*, that CERN buildings
looked like a "50's Soviet Housing Development"? (Or, something! lol.)
Another wandered the *surface* route of the LHC - Two Hours of: "Yes
- But what does it all REALLY mean"?! After many attempts, by various
scientists, I sense the guy didn't have a requisite (basic science) clue? 😏

Edited December 2, 2021 by Macavity

[saac]

7 hours ago, Macavity said:

I recall the surprise expressed by one *Journalist*, that CERN buildings
looked like a "50's Soviet Housing Development"? (Or, something! lol.)
Another wandered the *surface* route of the LHC - Two Hours of: "Yes
- But what does it all REALLY mean"?! After many attempts, by various
scientists, I sense the guy didn't have a requisite (basic science) clue? 😏

That would be incredibly frustrating and demoralising. 

Jim 

 

[Pixies]

At work, we've just had the "Annual Conference". All zoom-based online presentations. Normally, it ends with a keynote speaker - usually a sportsman or adventurer used to giving an inspirational talk.

This year it was Sir Brian of Cox! So we had an inspirational chat on astrophysics and particle physics! He was live from his (slightly messy) Manchester Uni office. Similar  to other radio-type conversations I've heard with him, his 'real-life' persona is much more down-to-earth. I can't stand the way his TV programmes are usually made, but I imagine that is more down to the producers and how they expect these programmes to be. Even Jim Al-Khalili is made to wander through dreamy spires and pause staring across green-swathed lawns. Obvious his travel budget is smaller though!

 

ps. I liked Prof C's story about booking a restaurant table with the other Brian Cox and they both turning up and pretending annoyed at being double-booked!