Potential newbie, check my logic please

[LondonNeil]

Hi there,

I'm thinking of launching out on an exploration across the cosmos.... By telescope, not rocket, obviously!  I've been studying a few bits on YouTube and have ordered some books including turn left at Orion but I'd appreciate a bit of a check on my logic so far.

 

I have been looking mainly at reflectors and probably Dobson because the main reason for trying this is to show my young kids some space stuff and hopefully amaze and inspire them.  Saturn's rings, spiral galaxies and vast nebulae will be great, but it will be the look on their faces that I hope to enjoy most.  If they enjoy it then it's something we can do and learn together.  So my primary objective is to show them stuff that makes them go 'wow!' Predicting that is impossible but I reckon looking at a computer screen of a processed image won't do it, looking at a bright dot and then the same target through a scope and seeing stuff in more detail could.  So Saturn, Jupiter, the moon, some stars that become visible doubles.  Targets that hopefully are a nice bright image and with some detail/something that is very different to the naked eye.

I'm thinking a dob, as it's affordable, and should give a nice bright image.

Personally I am inspired by the incredible images of DSOs so if we enjoy observing, then I might build a equatorial platform (I'm ok with DIY/woodwork so pretty sure I could manage one), and buy a cheap camera, learn a bit about photography trying to image the planets and then think about what next.

 

How does my logic sound?  Thanks

 Neil

 

 

 

 

[Knighty2112]

Only issue I can see with a dob is your kids might need a platform to stand on to see in the EP.

[Sunshine]

 Welcome to SGL!! 

Let me start by saying your logic is brilliant! you have ordered a book which is pretty much the beginners bible and you seek to inspire your children while getting into a new hobby. 

It seems you have locked targets on what is widely considered to be the quintessential starters scope which WILL provide that WOW factor (wait till you and your kids kids see Saturn!) and

you're right, the dobsonian is the ideal size vs value you can find. Personally I would go for something like a Skywatcher 200P, it is ideal and will show you all those things you mentioned

and more!. 

Best of luck!

[Pixies]

How old are the kids?

Bear in mind, a lot of the DSOs are quite subtle and might not be so impressive to younger kids.

[LondonNeil]

Kids still pretty young so I might be too early... Or rather must not get disheartened if there is no 'wow!' initially.... Try again in another 6 months!  Eldest is 6, then a 4 year old.  Youngest at 15 months....too young for now!  Mr thinking is there is no rush but would be great to have the kit and enough practice to be able to enjoy a future 'event' ....a comet or a lunar eclipse or such.  Maybe a planetary transit, but then my first book just got delivered, I opened a random page and... Mercury doesn't transit again for nearly 100 years, Oh well!

 

Cool.  Yes I've been hunting on eBay and was outbid in the last minute on a 200p skywatcher yesterday and missed out on a 250 skywatcher (on manual equatorial mount) too, that was over twice as much but I'd probably stretch to a 250 Dobson if one comes up.

[LondonNeil]

Bearing in mind their age, while I may be reading. Tl@o, they will be watching cbeebies 'maddie, space and you'.  Actually I'll watch with them.... Any dad's of young kids will know why 😉

[wulfrun]

There's a 200P up for sale in the classifieds on here, not far away from you if you are in London, as your name implies. Again, on that same assumption it's worth bearing in mind that the majority of galaxies and nebulae will not be visible from inner-city, light-polluted skies. Planets aren't much affected, likewise the moon. Finding stuff, beyond the obvious, may also be a challenge. Not wishing to dampen your obvious enthusiasm, just pointing out the pitfalls.

[Kon]

I have the Skywatcher 200P and it will be great for DSOs, planets etc. I also have 4 and 6 year olds. My son loved seeing M42, M31 and M1 last year and the planets over the summer. His favourite has been M42 due to its brightness. I found that their interest last 5 or so min before they start wondering in the garden playing hide and seek in the dark 🤣. But the 5 min it really good quality time. I found with my son he was interested to look at the Turn Left at Orion and try spot some of the Moon features with the telescope (you said you already have this book which is an excellent one).

I am not sure how much experience you have with DSO seeing but this thread here is pretty spot on . The second link are drawings of DSOs and they look exactly like that in my 8" Dob. Light pollution will also affect what you can/cannot see. Enjoy.

https://www.deepskywatch.com/astronomy-sketches.html

Edited September 20, 2021 by Kon

[Stu]

56 minutes ago, LondonNeil said:

Maybe a planetary transit, but then my first book just got delivered, I opened a random page and... Mercury doesn't transit again for nearly 100 years, Oh well!

Not quite that bad. Next one for Mercury is 13th November 2032, so at least the children will be old enough by then! Gives you time to get a solar filter sorted too!

Nothing wrong with your logic I don’t think. A dob on a EQ platform would work well. Means that the target will stay in view for the children too.

Don’t have high expectations about them spending ages looking at stuff until they are older. The Moon and major planets are likely to be the most ‘wow’ inducing until they learn a bit more.

This is my little one looking through my 8” dob. An adjustable seat or step to stand on certainly helps.

Have fun with it anyway.

[PeterStudz]

I’m relatively new to this having started out last December as my then 9yr old daughter had a interest in astronomy and I thought that a telescope (well, telescopes, we now have two) would be a fun thing that we could both do. This has turned out to be the case but it’s been hard work. 

One event that got more excitement and “wow” than using a telescope in an urban sky was going to a truly dark site. Sure, this was in Crete but maybe travel somewhere in the UK where the sky is dark. And I’m mean dark. Before Alice did not understand what “dark” was. After all, it was so dark in our garden that daddy had fallen down the patio steps while setting up Seeing the Milky Way and a sky completely full of stars is stunning even for an adult. The Andromeda Galaxy could be seen with the naked eye and was even better in the small binoculars that we had with us. DSO that we couldn’t see with an 8 inch reflector in our Southampton garden were visible with the naked eye. She still talks about it now. And no telescope necessary. 

And don’t forget the sun when there’s sunspots. With a decent solar filter and precautions. I’ve got a better reaction and “wow” from Alice than most DSO. And of course it’s during the day with all the advantages for children that brings. 

[LondonNeil]

Oh yes, thanks for the reminder, short spells and don't get disheartened by the '5 mins or less of focus'!!  

Yes frustrating the light pollution, if only the milky way and gorgeous galaxys and nebulae could be seen more clearly, oh well.  Still, an 8 or even 10" dob would fit in the car (kids on the roof 🤣) so visits to relatives in slightly more remote places might become mini star parties.

[LondonNeil]

Thanks Peter, that's great ideas 👍

[LondonNeil]

50 minutes ago, wulfrun said:

There's a 200P up for sale in the classifieds on here, not far away from you if you are in London, as your name implies.

The one at £650?  Probably a fair price with the extra bits but hard for me to tell, or tell which of those extras I'd use.  The 200p I missed on eBay yesterday went at £170, and I can see bend new skywatcher 250 flextube dobs for £720, all I know it's that's probably an upper and lower end to aim inside!

[PeterStudz]

To make it more fun and child friendly I try (when possible) to make observing an event. Eg camping in the garden, making cups of hot chocolate, toasting marshmallows, with the telescope just part of the event. Some of the garden camping has been done without a tent. Then we can look up at the sky (dark adaption comes naturally), search for meteors, scan the sky with binoculars. Of course this is more a summer thing when most DSO aren’t in a good position and the sky isn’t truly dark. But Saturn and Jupiter have been great fun. Alice hasn’t got bored at looking at these. Eg to get her to look in the eyepiece for more than 5 mins we played “who could spot the Great Red Spot first” as it appeared on the edge of the disc.  You can get the timings of this in apps or the internet. Then watched as it slowly tracked across the planet. 

[LondonNeil]

Peter, you and I are thinking similarly.  I've done garden camping several times this year with the 6 and 4 yo, and was thinking that the telescope outside the tent would be fun for them.  Decent sleeping bags, warm PJ's and a wooly hat and they managed the first time in the tent back in march.  We woke to frost on the tent and heavy condensation on the inner, but still warm and happy.  I recommend some effort to insulate from the ground, some old cardboard boxes flattened out do quite well but I also have a few left over off cuts of 50mm kingspan and we sleep on those.

[Tiny Clanger]

Right,

from my 30 years experience teaching 7-11 year olds , I can tell you there is a major flaw in your thinking .

You are expecting small people to behave in a way consistent with logic  😆 🙂

Seriously though, get yourself confident with setting up  and quickly finding some 'easy win' targets, the sort of things I finish a session off with to end on a good note after failing to see various faint fuzzies I'd hoped to track down.  The Orion nebula, the Pleiades, the Ring Nebula Or maybe a cluster which actually looks like something (the Starfish ,  or the Owl/ET /dragonfly for instance) . Small people won't appreciate standing around waiting .

Looking through a telescope isn't a natural thing to do, so before trying to show them anything else I'd spend a few short sessions (stop before they get fidgety, leave them wanting more ) looking around the terminator of the Moon . Easy to target and keep in view, lots to see (craters within craters within craters with mountains in them !) and plenty of child friendly books / vids about the Moon landings & lunar facts, all rather easier to comprehend than the deep space stuff (especially when you will be their chief explainer )  But remember this isn't school, keep it fun. Maybe encourage some drawing (chalk on black paper?) or mud/ clay/ play doh whatever 3d art next day , which will help  you see what they got out of it , and give them an incentive to  check out more detail next time .

If they get the hang of looking through the 'scope, (whatever it turns out to be) and enjoy looking at the Moon, then go for other targets. You'll have a good idea of how long their attention lasts , and if it's a good idea to do  separate sessions for the 4 and 6 year olds , who will have very different needs, and be easily bored/cold/miserable when it's their siblings turn . Something distracting to do while waiting your turn is a good idea , exactly what depends on the kids, and whoever is in charge of the child who is not actively looking through the 'scope, and of keeping them amused while you faff with the tech .

Make it fun, make it an occasion, make it special, don't be disappointed if their enthusiasm is short lived.

Heather

[LondonNeil]

Clanger hunting must be part of it surely!

[Tiny Clanger]

Clanger spotting please, no guns 🙂

Best mention to them right at the start, Clangers, the Soup Dragon, the Apollo landers& vehicles, the US flag, all are far too  small to be seen in any Earth telescope.  Doesn't mean they aren't there .... 

[wulfrun]

39 minutes ago, LondonNeil said:

The one at £650?  Probably a fair price with the extra bits but hard for me to tell, or tell which of those extras I'd use.  The 200p I missed on eBay yesterday went at £170, and I can see bend new skywatcher 250 flextube dobs for £720, all I know it's that's probably an upper and lower end to aim inside!

Yes, that one. It might be worth asking if the scope is available separately, should you not want the extras. Maybe it is or maybe they'll only sell "job lot" but no harm in asking. The main downside to using Ebay and their ilk is that you could end up with a bargain or a lemon! Caution required but yes, it may work well too.

The advantage of astro-dedicated sites like this is that the vast majority of our members are decent, honest folk who look after their gear and will declare any damage etc. You can easily do your homework on their post-count/content etc and be pretty sure they won't scam you.

[PeterStudz]

Well, my wife thinks I’m just a big kid

Another thing that’s helped is using a smartphone camera as an aid to observing. These days children are media driven. I’ve used the example of the Orion Nebula before. At first it was just a fuzzy grey “cloud” through the eyepiece. Alice was not impressed. But hovering my phone camera over the eyepiece showed colours. This image (without taking a picture) had my daughter literally jumping up and down.

We’ve even got pictures of globular clusters, galaxies that you couldn’t see with the eye at the eyepiece and of course the moon. She’s shown these picture to friends, teachers at school (during the pandemic that was via zoom). Some of her friends have come over to look in the telescope on the back of these pictures. The teachers have been impressed. Now, I don’t even consider these pictures astrophotography but it’s something fun to do and it keeps an interest going. 

[dweller25]

Hello @LondonNeil and welcome to SGL.

Your logic is correct, as is your plan.

The 8” Dobsonian is an excellent telescope and will do well with Planetary, Lunar and brighter deep sky objects.

BUT as others have said don’t expect to see the same detail and brightness you see in books especially on deep sky stuff.

Good luck and have fun 🙂

Edited September 20, 2021 by dweller25

[PeterStudz]

29 minutes ago, LondonNeil said:

Peter, you and I are thinking similarly.  I've done garden camping several times this year with the 6 and 4 yo, and was thinking that the telescope outside the tent would be fun for them.  Decent sleeping bags, warm PJ's and a wooly hat and they managed the first time in the tent back in march.  We woke to frost on the tent and heavy condensation on the inner, but still warm and happy.  I recommend some effort to insulate from the ground, some old cardboard boxes flattened out do quite well but I also have a few left over off cuts of 50mm kingspan and we sleep on those.

We just use a cheap inflatable air bed. It’s provided enough insulation during late spring, summer and early autumn. Although this September has been warm and dry so far. Alice is also an outside person which helps. Some children aren’t.

Although a negative is that much observing is done during the winter. Even in early May the telescope was coming back inside with ice on it. Getting/expecting children to hang about outside when it’s -2C is a tad too much. Even with lots of warm clothing & hot drinks. 

[doublevodka]

You've not mentioned a budget so I'm going to take a bit of a stab in the dark with a couple of recommendations

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/stellalyra-telescopes/stellalyra-8-f6-dobsonian.html - New 8 inch dob from FLO with a less back breaking right angled finder and some other nice upgrades compared to the skywatcher

Or if you like a bit of technology, the slightly smaller option - https://www.firstlightoptics.com/heritage/sky-watcher-heritage-150p-flextube-virtuoso-gti.html

My youngest took at interest at about 6 years old, which is what got me back into astronomy, she mastered a manual eq2 quicker than I did! Although I find a goto mount much easier with kids as the object stays in the eyepiece

Also bear in mind that as mentioned above then attention span will be an issue, so it's going to be more of a daddy hobby, make sure you get something that you'll like as you'll end up using it the most

[LondonNeil]

Thanks, if I but new then I'd thought about 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Skywatcher-Skyliner-250PX-Flextube-Dobsonian-Telescope-SKY10157-/233897156869?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

I've not seen a new 8" for much less.

 

Is there much that can go wrong with a scope that isn't immediately obvious to a newbie?  Ie, is used kit a bit of a minefield, or just the usual 'beware of the unscrupulous' that always applies to any second hand purchase?

 

[doublevodka]

7 minutes ago, LondonNeil said:

Thanks, if I but new then I'd thought about 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Skywatcher-Skyliner-250PX-Flextube-Dobsonian-Telescope-SKY10157-/233897156869?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

I've not seen a new 8" for much less.

 

Is there much that can go wrong with a scope that isn't immediately obvious to a newbie?  Ie, is used kit a bit of a minefield, or just the usual 'beware of the unscrupulous' that always applies to any second hand purchase?

 

The flextube is also a good choice as it stores up a bit smaller

Used can be a minefield if you buy from non astro sites like ebay etc, but I'm a big fan of used kit personally so it's definitely worth a look on the forums here and also on https://www.astrobuysell.com/uk/. Bargains can be had elsewhere but it's worth getting some experience.

Astronomers in general look after their kit so you are usually pretty safe, or even join your local astro society, most have a facebook group now as sometimes there are bargains to be had locally, plus they can be handy for general advice