Potential newbie, check my logic please

[Zermelo]

Some great ideas for you already, above.

I would say plan your targets well to minimize standing around (depending on the availablilty of other activities), but expect to have to change the plan mid-way (because of equipment glitches, or dodging clouds, or unexpected trees or, in particular, the tendency of a child's mind to operate in a non-linear fashion).

While I agree with the opinion that a largeish dob will help your chances of securing that 'wow' moment, I do like the convenience of a tracking mount when sharing a scope. Though if your scope is "fast" (short focal ratio), and you use wider-field eyepieces, then manual operation will be made easier.

If you have, or intend getting, a zoom eyepiece, then that might provide some interest with objects (e.g. double stars) that reveal a new aspect when magnified. You can achieve the same thing by switching eyepieces, but the immediacy of doing it with a single eyepiece (especially if the child is capable/trusted to operate it themselves) may have extra appeal.

Oh, eyepieces - this may not be a consideration if you're starting out and don't have many. But as you accumulate a collection of (increasingly valuable) EPs, you'll need to decide which ones you want to risk getting covered in fingerprints, strawberry jam, or worse.

And of course it probably goes without saying that the things you expect to provide the most excitement will probably be outdone by something else entirely - the familiar "Christmas morning, child ignoring expensive present and playing with the box it came in" scenario.

Good luck with your impending purchase, and your attempts to inspire the next generation.

 

[PeterStudz]

43 minutes ago, doublevodka said:

 

Also bear in mind that as mentioned above then attention span will be an issue, so it's going to be more of a daddy hobby, make sure you get something that you'll like as you'll end up using it the most

This is true. Although it’s nice to have a shared interest however small. And as @Kon pointed out it’s often “quality time”. Sometimes little things like my daughter coming into our bedroom at 12:30am and saying “daddy, I can’t sleep, can we see the planets”. The planets being Jupiter and Saturn.

[Tiny Clanger]

10 minutes ago, Zermelo said:

 the familiar "Christmas morning, child ignoring expensive present and playing with the box it came in" scenario.

 

Think of all the things you could do at age 6 with a telescope box ! Rocket, castle tower, tardis , racing car ...

If the OP gets a 'scope which comes in the original box ( always good for future transportation) I urge him to unpack it after the tiddlers have gone to sleep, and put the box out of sight before they wake up , or it won't last long ...

[PeterStudz]

We’ve been through the box phase

[Peter_D]

37 minutes ago, LondonNeil said:

Thanks, if I but new then I'd thought about 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Skywatcher-Skyliner-250PX-Flextube-Dobsonian-Telescope-SKY10157-/233897156869?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

I've not seen a new 8" for much less.

 

Is there much that can go wrong with a scope that isn't immediately obvious to a newbie?  Ie, is used kit a bit of a minefield, or just the usual 'beware of the unscrupulous' that always applies to any second hand purchase?

 

Hi,

 If you are buying a used Newtonian on a Dobsonian mount, obviously check the mirrors are bright and reflective and the coating is uniform. A bit of dust is fine, cloudiness or scratches aren't. Also check that the mount allows for smooth movement. Check that rocker box has not got damp. Disclaimer: I actually don't own a Dob so hopefully others can chime in too 🙂

Peter

[LondonNeil]

Boxes are the BEST!

 

See now I thought I'd settled on an 8-10" dob second hand as affordable and wouldn't lose much if it got sold after gathering dust for a while.  Now I'm back to looking at new and the 6" reflector with synscan/goto seems very attractive, both price and ease of use.  Would that track well enough to attempt a bit of imaging photography?  If I could get an 8" with goto for under £600 I'd look hard at that.

[PeterStudz]

What ever you buy you’ll probably believe that maybe something else would have been better. I think that’s a common theme with people starting out. But just make the best of what you’ve got and have fun. 
 

I actually enjoy finding stuff that I can’t see with the naked eye. Can be frustrating but  It’s quite a skill and thrill when you do find what you were looking for. And my daughter can now find the brighter objects with a dob, getting it to the centre of the eyepiece. Harder than you first imagine. 

[Zermelo]

3 minutes ago, LondonNeil said:

Boxes are the BEST!

 

See now I thought I'd settled on an 8-10" dob second hand as affordable and wouldn't lose much if it got sold after gathering dust for a while.  Now I'm back to looking at new and the 6" reflector with synscan/goto seems very attractive, both price and ease of use.  Would that track well enough to attempt a bit of imaging photography?  If I could get an 8" with goto for under £600 I'd look hard at that.

Yes and no, but mostly no.

Astrophotography can range from putting a smartphone up to the eyepiece (no cost) all the way up to several thousand pounds on an imaging setup for DSOs. In between, there's solar system imaging, which works in a different way and isn't so demanding on equipment.

The biggest factor is the mount. To achieve the kind of amazing results that you see published, you need a mount that tracks very accurately - more so than you need for visual observing. That means £££. And also, it requires a lot of skill and understanding in both taking the images and processing them afterwards. There's enough of a learning curve with just visual, I'm finding. I don't image.

If you just want to experiment a bit and see what you can achieve, then you could always have a go at imaging with a setup that's designed more for visual. There are several members on this forum who do that, and get decent results. But for all I know they may be geniuses, or masochists, or both.

The usual advice for people starting off who say "I'm mostly interesting in visual, but I'd like to get something that I could do imaging with later" is to concentrate on the visual for now.

[LondonNeil]

How prone to damage from damp are dobs?  I had assumed they could live in an unheated, occasionally moist shed/garage/observatory.  Or would be easy if I can put it in the garage and throw a blanket over it rather than try and make space in the house..... 3 kids and a London semi, space is a premium!

[Peter_D]

7 minutes ago, LondonNeil said:

How prone to damage from damp are dobs?  I had assumed they could live in an unheated, occasionally moist shed/garage/observatory.  Or would be easy if I can put it in the garage and throw a blanket over it rather than try and make space in the house..... 3 kids and a London semi, space is a premium!

I was thinking more along the lines of it maybe being used over time on ground that is damp from dew. It's just something to bear in mind.

[Tiny Clanger]

5 minutes ago, LondonNeil said:

How prone to damage from damp are dobs?  I had assumed they could live in an unheated, occasionally moist shed/garage/observatory.  Or would be easy if I can put it in the garage and throw a blanket over it rather than try and make space in the house..... 3 kids and a London semi, space is a premium!

It's the base which is most prone to damage by damp, (at least in the affordable price range) they are made of some variety of faced particle board, like cheap white furniture,  it's what makes a dob base cheap for the steadiness and weight capacity it provides. The same sort of newtonian optics on a suitably sturdy tripod and mount would be far more expensive . 

If the garage would be dry enough for that sort of board to not wick up damp, you ought to be OK . I don't think I'd store a 'scope in a garage it actually shared with a car though ... well, an electric one would be OK , but not an internal combustion one ...

At this point I'm more or less obliged to ask .. had you considered a heritage 150 dob ? Closes down so easy to store ...

[LondonNeil]

I know a car in a garage is rare these days, but mine does get garaged every night.  I can't see a problem though, it doesn't sit there running and is well ventilated.  It does get damp on occasion but I've not noticed damage to the old kitchen units I've got in there.... But then I've not studied them either.

There are feet on the base aren't there?  So the board isn't in direct contact with dewy grass etc and you can level the scope?  Still, something to mind or for though, ta.

[Cosmic Geoff]

I recently took a 102mm f5 Startravel refractor and manual alt-az mount to a public astro event, along with a couple of cheap eyepieces.   I aimed it at Jupiter, the Moon and Saturn.  The public, young and adult, who had a look through it, were suitably impressed.  So you probably don't need much for that initial 'wow' factor.

[Peter_D]

9 minutes ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

I recently took a 102mm f5 Startravel refractor and manual alt-az mount to a public astro event, along with a couple of cheap eyepieces.   I aimed it at Jupiter, the Moon and Saturn.  The public, young and adult, who had a look through it, were suitably impressed.  So you probably don't need much for that initial 'wow' factor.

The two objects with which my family here were uniformly impressed were the Moon and Saturn. Saturn's rings just look so strange and nearly artificial when you observe them. The Moon just looks fantastic in most telescopes imo.

[John]

40 minutes ago, Peter_D said:

The two objects with which my family here were uniformly impressed were the Moon and Saturn. Saturn's rings just look so strange and nearly artificial when you observe them. The Moon just looks fantastic in most telescopes imo.

From my experience doing outreach with folks of all ages, the above are by far where the "wows" are for most of those who have not looked through a scope before.

Many deep sky targets, even some of the famous ones, either prove invisible to the novice or elicit the response "what ? - that small faint smudge ?????"

You say you live in / near London ?. What are your skies like for darkness ?. Light pollution kills the view of many deep sky objects rather effectively, unfortunately.

Edited September 20, 2021 by John

[Peter_D]

The point about light pollution is a very good one. I live under Bottle 6-ish skies and struggled to find DSOs manually. I bought a Celestron 6SE a couple of years ago that has Goto - it works really well. It's on an Alt-az mount so it's not good for long exposure astro-photography. On the other hand, with a sensitive planetary camera (in this case, a Zwo asi224mc), you can get ok results in Electronically Assisted Astronomy (EAA) on small DSOs. It's really satisfying to see your image gradually appearing on the screen in real time as each exposure stacks one image on top of another. 

[Peter_D]

Here are a few examples of DSOs I took this year with my 6SE using EAA: M13, M51, M57.  It's not as immediate as visual astronomy in that you are looking at a screen but the image is displayed in real time (and minimally processed on the fly using Sharcap in this case) so it is distinct from AP. It also allows more than one person to see the object at one time so it's good for family groups or outreach.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Peter_D

[Nyctimene]

4 hours ago, LondonNeil said:

Thanks, if I but new then I'd thought about 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Skywatcher-Skyliner-250PX-Flextube-Dobsonian-Telescope-SKY10157-/233897156869?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

Don't underestimate weight and bulk of a 10". The OTA weighs 19 kgs, the rockerbox 26kgs; the diameter of the rockerbox is 60 cm, and the height of the collapsed scope (in the rockerbox) 1 meter. For lunar and planetary observations, a smaller scope will do; and if you take that scope to a dark sky area, the views with it will be at least on par with a 10" under urban skies.

Heather mentioned the Skywatcher Heritage 150 P Flextube, which is very compact and lightweight(7.5 kgs in toto), thus easy to transport to rural skies. I'm using it's smaller brother, the 130 P, and can fully recommend it.

Btw., for the woodworker some plans for an equatorial platform:

http://www.reinervogel.net/index_e.html

Stephan

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Nyctimene

[LondonNeil]

Yes I'm going round in circles again, I'd come down from 10" to favour 8" because of weight, but forgotten that. Although I've just come across the Explorer scientific ultra light 10".  Is it just me, or are truss designs very sexy?  Just me?    ok that's the engineer in me!  It's top end of (bit over) budget and doesn't come with EPs so really it's £100 over budget but packs small and is well made, aluminium not MDF/chip board.  It is also very light.  Low CG so could probably build an equatorial platform with a few degrees more travel and it would still be very stable.  AHH.... Stop it Neil... It's over budget so stop with the man logic attempts to justify it ...  It IS sexy though!

[LondonNeil]

Super images Peter! Love the spiral galaxy

[PEMS]

I would sort of suggest a different route. A dobsonian is a purely manual system. You can expect to take 2 maybe 4 weeks to familiarise yourself with using and operating one. This leads to how long do you expect it to take your children to learn? Honestly and from experience if you find and centre Saturn at the first touch of the scope by anyone Saturn will not be in view. Rather simply learning to use a "simple" dobsonian takes time. In a way they are simple, that however likely means that you have to do more work to compensate for the "simplicity". The scope is aimed at a larger £ for £ objective, other aspects were not part of the consideration.

One description I have read is that you are aiming the scope up at an object you cannot see, as you are looking at the ground. The object will be along a line approximately going from one ear and through the other. And the movement of the object is not matched by the movement looking through the scope. And of course the object "moves" continuously across the sky.

In one way you are doing outreach or a small home star party for your kids. So think more along those lines.

A small goto, wifi variant like the Az GTi with something along the lines of an 80mm or 70mm refractor (not one of the fast f/5 achro offerings) would be I suggest a better option. Yes smaller, but kids have no problem with a wifi controlled mount - Skysafari and the touchscreen of a phone or tablet and off they will go.

Have you checked out somewhere like the group that meet at Regents Park. No idea if they still meet or have strated again. I would strongly suggest a visit to any club or better outreach that you can find. They seem to be starting up again. I was asking about an event close and found that there are no dobsonians in use by anyone. Everything apparently is full goto. Do a search for UK Astronomy Clubs and see if there is one or two accessable to you.

Likely comes down to the saying: Your best scope is the one you use the most. And from the clubs I have managed to visit, see and attended before everything was cancelled a dobsonian does not fall into that. Actually need to start considering a club for myself now.

Also expectations may be high. Very little seems to be a "Wow". The best is The Moon. Yes that ever present, perhaps boring, and often complained about, object gets the "Wows". Pleiades possibly next - needs LOW magnification (30x or less) so forget big magnifications. M31 always sounds spectacular, it isn't. Fuzzy grey patch, pretty indistinct grey patch at that. Also oddly M31 is unlikely to fit in any initial field of view in even an 8" reflector = you will not see all of it in one go. Assuming a starter eyepiece of 60 degree type and an 8" f/5 mirror so 1000mm focal length, you need 3 degrees for M31 and that implies 20x, which in turn means a 50mm focal length eyepiece, and they don't exist.

May be useful to add in the London area you are in. Thinking E9 or whatever. Rather simply London covers a large area and suggesting say Loughton club is pointless if you are around Weybridge.

[LondonNeil]

Thanks, useful to get a counter view.  I can see it taking a while for the kids to learn not to touch the scope, and partly assumed that would be similar with many set ups.  

I've learnt never to expect anything with kids!  It's about giving them many experiences and occasionally you're get lucky!

I'm SE19, crystal palace.  Nearest club is Croydon.

[MalcolmM]

On 20/09/2021 at 17:37, Cosmic Geoff said:

I recently took a 102mm f5 Startravel refractor and manual alt-az mount to a public astro event, along with a couple of cheap eyepieces.   I aimed it at Jupiter, the Moon and Saturn.  The public, young and adult, who had a look through it, were suitably impressed.  So you probably don't need much for that initial 'wow' factor.

I can second the 102 Startravel experience. I had one for about 3 years on an alt/az mount and thought it was great. The most important thing for me was that it was so easy to use. I could carry it outside (tripod and all) and be observing in 2 minutes. No real cool down time was required and no collimation was required!

Malcolm

[Elp]

One of the factors I've found most frustrating is navigating the sky and trying to find your target. Although you can see a few main constellations with your eye, when you put eye to eyepiece I find I tend to lose position, even with a low power eyepiece you will see even more stars which causes more confusion. A good red dot or something like a Rigel quickfinder will allow more precise ball park pointing.

Most people say dobs due to their aperture, for me I went refractor as I wanted compact (for travel) and no hassles (my first was a basic Newtonian and it wouldn't collimate). With a solar filter I can also view the sun.

One of the best things I've bought is an azgti which allows goto functionality which simplifies finding targets (manually searching is more fulfilling however) though it isn't totally accurate and you are limited to around 5kg payload. You also can precisely position where the telescope is pointing via remote control with the phone app. With a computer connection and guidecam finding targets becomes even easier. For me bare minimum you would need a mount which allows slow motion control so you can track targets and keep them in view.

They're expensive and I personally don't like the "hands off" artificial experience they provide but there are the evscope's or stellina which may provide the wow factor, are simple to use, especially in light polluted areas, though you can achieve better with traditonal setups and an astro camera and cheaper if you put in the work.

As has been suggested nothing beats the wow factor of going to a dark site, knowing what's truly visible if it wasn't for light pollution is such a tragic shame of modern living.

[Starwatcher2001]

16 hours ago, LondonNeil said:

I can see it taking a while for the kids to learn not to touch the scope, and partly assumed that would be similar with many set ups. 

Hi Neil, welcome aboard SGL. 

Assuming the kids need something to stand on, a kitchen chair or something with a back can be useful. With the back facing the scope, it gives the youngsters something to hang on to in the dark. They often have a tendency to hold onto the eyepiece, which can move the scope off what you've just spent a few minutes finding.

As others have suggested, get yourself used to the scope and finding a few of the objects yourself, before you get the kids involved. That way when they do accidentally move the scope, dad can quicky re-acquire the object for them.

Maybe let them try the scope out during the day (nowhere near the sun, obviously) and let them look at distant trees, houses or whatever. That will give them a little experience with moving the scope and the scale of things. Getting familiar is much easier in daylight.

After showing them a few things at night, maybe aim the scope into a populated area of the sky (Cassiopea, Cygnus...) and let them have a scan around. Let them see how many stars, shapes and colours they can find. I can spend hours doing that myself!