Disaster - USB ports blown - any thoughts

[Paul M]

7 minutes ago, Stuart1971 said:

Still not an issue with the PPBA as he would have only back fed 12v into a 12v power port….so whichever way you look at it the Pegasus PPBA should not have got damaged….it should only be items connected upstream of the PPBA that should be damaged….🤔

If  one of the outbound USB ports on the PPBA was connected to the inbound port on the hub then, for the reasons  I gave above, it is possible for the 12v inadvertently put on the outbound USB ports 5v line to be back fed to the 5v line on the PPBA USB port. 

[teoria_del_big_bang]

20 minutes ago, malc-c said:

Sorry to hear what's happened, but it does suggest a flaw in the design of either the hub, or the PPBA as normally the plugs between 12v and 5v are different, having either a larger centre pin, or different diameter barrels to prevent such a mishap.

Hi, sadly this is not always the case and one of the things that maddens me in this day and age.
You would have thought it not too difficult by now to have a standard 5V connector, a standard 12V and even a standard 24V that were all different.

Even on my astro gear that is all 12V whilst most manufacturers use 5.5 x 2.1 connectors some use the 5.5 x 2.5 connectors which means I have to carry both leads and/or use adapters.
What makes it worse is that you can use a 2.5 inner female socket on a 2.1 male plug and they do make a connection and seem to work but the connection is poor and plug may overheat.

But it seems many manufacturers also choose the same connectors for 5V as well, and I have 24V power supplies with same plugs so keep those well away.

Steve

[teoria_del_big_bang]

1 minute ago, Paul M said:

If  one of the outbound USB ports on the PPBA was connected to the inbound port on the hub then, for the reasons  I gave above, it is possible for the 12v inadvertently put on the outbound USB ports 5v line to be back fed to the 5v line on the PPBA USB port. 

Which was the case

[malc-c]

6 minutes ago, teoria_del_big_bang said:

Hi, sadly this is not always the case and one of the things that maddens me in this day and age.
You would have thought it not too difficult by now to have a standard 5V connector, a standard 12V and even a standard 24V that were all different.

Steve

Steve, I stand corrected.  My experience, especially between 5v wall plugs for things like old routers or phones etc, they have small yellow tipped barrels, making them impossible to fit a 12v alternative.  But I agree there are no real standards between the voltages, and thus  a safe guard that prevent this sort of thing happening. 

[badhex]

Sorry to hear Steve. Sounds like warranty/repair/insurance might be ht only option then at this point.

Fingers crossed then for a good outcome 🤞🤞🤞

[M40]

Just had a quick search and it looks like you can get usb - usb high speed isolator devices at about £60 a go. Ouch. I will keep looking.

[teoria_del_big_bang]

7 minutes ago, malc-c said:

Steve, I stand corrected.  My experience, especially between 5v wall plugs for things like old routers or phones etc, they have small yellow tipped barrels, making them impossible to fit a 12v alternative.  But I agree there are no real standards between the voltages, and thus  a safe guard that prevent this sort of thing happening. 

Yes I wish that were the case for all things, and it could be, that would be logical 🙂 

Steve

[markse68]

What a horrible thing to happen- one bad move and such damage caused  absolute nightmare- hope you can claim on your insurance.

Going forward one option might be an industrial usb hub from eg startech- the ones in the steel housings. They have a non-standard side by side industrial type power input so you can’t really plug anything else into them, and 7-42V input so internal dc-dc conversion. I can’t find any info on if they have over voltage protection should the dc-dc fail though….

Mark

[badhex]

2 minutes ago, markse68 said:

What a horrible thing to happen- one bad move and such damage caused  absolute nightmare- hope you can claim on your insurance.

Going forward one option might be an industrial usb hub from eg startech- the ones in the steel housings. They have a non-standard side by side industrial type power input so you can’t really plug anything else into them, and 7-42V input so internal dc-dc conversion. I can’t find any info on if they have over voltage protection should the dc-dc fail though….

Mark

I am sure I read somewhere that some of the startechs have overvoltage protection as well. 

[teoria_del_big_bang]

2 minutes ago, markse68 said:

What a horrible thing to happen- one bad move and such damage caused  absolute nightmare- hope you can claim on your insurance.

Going forward one option might be an industrial usb hub from eg startech- the ones in the steel housings. They have a non-standard side by side industrial type power input so you can’t really plug anything else into them, and 7-42V input so internal dc-dc conversion. I can’t find any info on if they have over voltage protection should the dc-dc fail though….

Mark

I know which you mean and two were sold on SGL not too long ago and if it were not for the fact I had the Pegasus PPBA, which is not cheap at around £260 and that had all the ports I needed I would have bought one on here.
It was only when I got this rotator I needed one more port and so added a USB hub that has worked so reliably in the past, It is a Startech (but not the industrial type you mention) but had been redundant for many months in a drawer, so I just forgot the power needs to be 5V when I quickly connected everything up to test the rotator.

Daft thing is that more than likely I could have used the hub without the power but I was a bit tired and plugged everything in without even really thinking.

Steve

[malc-c]

1 hour ago, badhex said:

Sorry to hear Steve. Sounds like warranty/repair/insurance might be ht only option then at this point.

Fingers crossed then for a good outcome 🤞🤞🤞

I doubt that it could be a warranty repair given that under normal use there would be no reason for the USB port on each device to be damaged in such a way.  Whether or not you could guilt trip the manufactures of the PPBA in fitting the same connector for both 5v and 12v, and apportion some or most of the blame on their design that may be an option.  But you will probably find something in the small print about not being responsible for damage to 3rd party equipment through improper connection.....

Good luck, and keep us posted on how this pans out

  

[Stu]

I’ve removed a number of comments which were not really helping the thread. Let’s keep this focussed on helping Steve get the best result he can from a tricky situation.

Thanks,

Stu

[Carbon Brush]

Steve I feel for you with this. A simple and very expensive slip.

A cautionary tale for all of us who connect lots of expensive items together.

In any properly designed equipment, USB ports have over voltage protection on both data and power lines.
If a manufacturer does not offer a repair, it is worth asking someone who knows about these things to take a look.
If you are in luck, the protection components on the port will be damaged, but nothing more.
A big IF but given the cost of kit?

There are also lessons to be learned about connecting power supplies.
Again, a decent manufacturer will fit overvoltage protction on incoming supply lines.
It may be that the protection devices have failed, but the rest of the equipment has survived.
A knowledgeable person taking a look might offer a clue?

HTH, David.

[badhex]

One other thought that springs to mind which doesn't help now but useful for avoiding similar situations in the future: cable clips or labels such as the below can be a great help, especially in the dark and with cold hands. 

[teoria_del_big_bang]

Thanks for all the support, it does mean a lot even though there's very little you can do.

I have to learn to accept what was a stupid mistake on my behalf and it really hit hard because I have built up my kit over 2 or 3 years prior to my retirement last year as I knew I would not have the cash to do so later.
The rotator was like the last but I really wanted to complete the kit, and I have blown that as well, but probably repairable as the mechanics are there and it still works with the hand controller just not through USB.

And after maybe throwing all my toys out of the pram O actually still could have a setup as I have another guide camera somewhere, I do have a DSD focusser but will take some ingenuity to fit it to this scope as it was on my WO 73, and I can use the rotator just not through INDI and EKOS. So in many way so long as my expensive CCD works I still have a setup.

So I think I have got over the "give it all up" stage as I do love AP and still lots to do and learn, I just have to decide do I carry on with the reduced setup, or take the hit and get back to where i was ????

All this and on top of just getting over Covid these last couple of weeks really got me down last night but I realise things could be far worse 🙂 

Steve

 

 

[badhex]

Good to hear you are feeling a bit more positive! Certainly worth investigating putting together your alternate setup, will only cost you an afternoon or two. Think of it as an interesting challenge!

Maybe over time you can then look at either repairing one thing at a time where possible, or replacements where not. 

[DaveS]

Definitely worth checking for any input protection fuses. A few years ago I thought I had fried my DDM60 by misconnecting the + and - power leads, resulting in a dead mount. After a couple of emails it turned out there was an input fuse, a simple automotive type, that had blown. A quick trip to Halfords provided a replacement. £6.5k worth of kit saved!

[Ags]

10 minutes ago, DaveS said:

I thought I had fried my DDM60 by misconnecting the + and - power leads

Do manufacturers not understand their stuff is operated late at night in the dark by sleepy astronomers? A design inviting reversible polarity is unforgivable.

[malc-c]

LOL - you guys take thing too seriously.... Thank to the moderators for tidying up the thread, the responses I got were amusing.....and to a degree shoes how thing get lost in translation between the keyboard and the gestural meaning.

Steve, hopefully the kit you can cobble together gets you back up and running soon.

[teoria_del_big_bang]

1st step to recovery thanks to some great support from Pegasus.

I emailed them early hours of this morning and had a reply waiting for me when I got up at 7:00am (yest not much sleep - I wonder why).
Since then I have had several replies asking for info and generally they suspect the unit is damaged beyond repair but have offered me a replacement board, which I can fit myself, for 160 euros including VAT and postage so around £140.
Not cheap but much better than £260 + postage for a new unit.

I have emailed other manufacturers but not had replies yet but I am sure DSD will very soon as Pavle is normally very helpful.

Steve

[teoria_del_big_bang]

Many thanks to @M40 for the offer of sending me a 4 port USB hub, great to see how helpful SGL members can be.

This together with the new board from Pegasus will sort my USB ports out, I do have a guide camera and have ordered a new focusser so its a direct replacement for my Sesto Senso, which is actually a V2 and so maybe even an upgrade, although unless connecting to other primaluce equipment not sure if there is any gain.

So this means I should have a working rig again if any clear nights are on the horizon (not holding breath)

Steve

 

[david_taurus83]

I'm confused. Even though the extra hub should have only had 5v input, shouldn't the output from the ports only been 5v anyway? 

[Tomatobro]

1 hour ago, Ags said:

A design inviting reversible polarity is unforgivable.

Adding reverse polarity protection to a design is not too difficult. A reversed diode across the input will short the supply if reversed and if a fuse is also in line it will blow and protect the diode. With this setup once the fuse is blown the device will appear to be dead but can be fixed.

But  this will not protect against an applied voltage being above the design limit.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Tomatobro
speeling

[teoria_del_big_bang]

29 minutes ago, david_taurus83 said:

I'm confused. Even though the extra hub should have only had 5v input, shouldn't the output from the ports only been 5v anyway? 

It looks like it was whatever the power supply was, which in this instance was 12V

Steve

[malc-c]

41 minutes ago, david_taurus83 said:

I'm confused. Even though the extra hub should have only had 5v input, shouldn't the output from the ports only been 5v anyway? 

It depends on the design of the hub.  The cheaper ones simply take the 5v and GND coming in, be that from the USB socket or the 5v power plug, and place it across the 5v and GND pins of the outgoing sockets, with the aid of a few current limiting components (the standard is 100mA for USB 2 and 150mA USB 3).  But it's not the current that killed the devices it was voltage.  The 12v that was applied to the hubs power socket got fed through to all the connecting devices (and probably blew the hub in the process) not a high current draw.  If Steve had left the hubs power lead unplugged he would have been OK (sorry to rub salt in it Steve), and just had the USB leads connected the 5v from each USB lead would have been fine.

From my dissecting of some  hubs, the more expensive ones tend to have more isolation between the 5v USB lines and the power out... but even then, unless the hub has its own built in regulation, shoving in more than 100% of its nominal voltage is gonna hurt