Looking to buy a nice telescope for my father

[pointedstick]

Howdy folks!

I'm looking to buy my father a telescope and hoping for a little assistance. He's always been an astronomy buff, but never had a nice telescope before. 20 years ago when I was a kid, he had a crappy little manual refractor that was kinda frustrating to use and he abandoned it after a while. My childhood astronomy highlight is that we did once see the blurry outline of Saturn! But now he's retired, and has been talking about wanting get back into the hobby with a fancy computerized telescope. I want to buy him the nicest one possible for his upcoming birthday, within the limits of what makes sense for his use cases.

He's a very non-technical person and a GoTo system is almost certainly the right choice for him. The easier it is to see something cool through the eyepiece, the better; if it's too fiddly or too hard to use, he just won't use it. He lives in a somewhat non-optimal location with a lot of light pollution (Bortle 6) and tree cover, so it will have to be a travel-friendly unit. He has mostly talked about wanting to look at planets and moons and the ISS, but he might possibly be interested in galaxies and nebulas too--if the result is not too disappointing with a travel-friendly scope. He won't be doing any photography.

I have no real knowledge of the hobby, but have done some research and narrowed down my search to two Celestron units: the 127SLT and 8SE. Both would be purchased with the external LiFePO battery, dew shield, and wifi unit so he can control it with his iPad, which he has become comfortable with. Being smartphone/tablet-compatible is a big plus.

I think the 127SLT will be better for travel, being 6 lbs lighter altogether, and maybe with lower cooldown times due to its smaller aperture? My impression is that as a Maksutov-Cassegrain unit, it will be better for viewing things within the solar system, but will be unsuitable for DSO viewing. The 8SE is a bit heavier and seems like it would be better at the latter while possibly being a little bit worse at the former? I'm fuzzy on that. I'm also fuzzy on whether these units include decent eyepieces or whether they need better ones to get a good amount of enjoyment from them.

Budget is not a practical concern, within reason. If the 8SE is better in every way compared to the 127SLT, I'd get that for him. Does it seem like either of these two units would be suitable? Are there other offerings from alternative companies that you would recommend instead? Are there additional accessories it would be nice to have to enhance the enjoyment of the telescope, or to make it simpler and easier to use?

Thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge!

[Peter_D]

Hi, welcome!

In visual astronomy, aperture is king so an 8 inch SCT is going to give a more detailed view of the Moon and planets than a 5 inch Mak (IMO). The contrast in the Mak could be better than the SCT (smaller central obstruction than the SCT) but the amount of detail will be better in the (collimated) SCT. 

The 8SE is a fine scope. The one thing you do hear is it is just on the borderline with the single arm SE mount. Others with direct experience will give you their opinions about vibrations / settling times. I know you can buy pads for the tripod legs to help surpress vibrations so maybe something to get feedback on too. I have the smaller 6SE which works really well but I don't use it as my primary scope. One thing that is in your favour is it will be used for visual only.

The supplied SE accessories will all get your father going. Some people replace the red dot finder with a finder scope ( I did).

My 6SE came with one 25mm plössl eyepiece which is actually pretty good quality.  I would get him a 8-24mm zoom eyepiece and a lens cleaning kit with blower. Cleaning kit is for eyepieces  and the blower is cleaning dust off  the front of the corrector plate. 

Another upgrade down the road for the 8SE is the 0.63 reducer/corrector. 

Peter

Edited April 29, 2021 by Peter_D

[Stu]

2 hours ago, pointedstick said:

He's a very non-technical person and a GoTo system is almost certainly the right choice for him. The easier it is to see something cool through the eyepiece, the better; if it's too fiddly or too hard to use, he just won't use it

Welcome to the forum!

This part caused me a little confusion I must say, so is worth exploring more. You say your father is very non technical, yet then go on to suggest that a scope with a Goto system is best. These scopes require setup and alignment, control via a handset and, as mentioned, potential connection to a smartphone app. This in itself can be something to master, vs a fully manual scope that you just plonk down and use.

Obviously you may well be right, in that he may prefer something that finds the objects for him vs finding them manually himself, but it is worth just checking this point out. Having said that,I’ve just read a review of the 8SE on the FLO site, and that said that alignment was very quick and easy to do.

Given the need for portability, I do wonder if the 6SE could be a good option. As Peter says, the 8SE is apparently a little more marginal on that mount so is prone to more vibration. It is also that bit heavier and will take longer to cool down before it gives the best images; these scopes can take an hour or more to cool if taken from a warm house into the cold night.

If opting for the 8”, then it is perhaps worth considering the Evolution model which has a more solid single arm mount and would be less prone to vibration. It also has a built in Lithium battery and WiFi so needs no external connections.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/nexstar-evolution-telescopes/celestron-nexstar-evolution-8-telescope.html

An 8” scope will certainly show plenty. Bortle 6 skies are not too bad, better than mine, so you will see some decent sights, particularly of planets and the Moon. Bear in mind that the planets are relatively low currently and will take a few years before they get back to higher altitudes which will give better views.

I’m sure plenty of people will suggest an 8” or 10” manual Dobsonian, and they certainly do have their merits. I can say that an older couple I once advised to do likewise then went to an Astronomy shop and came away with a 6SE and were delighted with it.

So, provided your father can handle the size and weight of the scope and mount, the 8” Evo (or SE) would likely be a good plan, otherwise perhaps consider the 6”.

[Peter_D]

Re. Goto, I think the advantage his father will have is he already has a knowledge of the night sky and can therefore use known stars as alignment stars. Also, he will be using a power tank and not internal AA batteries. I struggled with the Goto at first simply because I was using AA batteries. Once I got a power supply, it worked flawlessly. I also use a little triangular spirit level to level the tripod before fitting the mount - this might not be needed but I got into the habit of it.

One thing that I don't personally use is  any WiFi connection to a controlling  smartphone - I'm happy enough with the supplied handset.

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by Peter_D

[Cosmic Geoff]

As I own both of the mooted outfits, the 127mm Mak and the 8SE I feel qualified to comment.  Both are sensible choices but:

7 hours ago, pointedstick said:

He's a very non-technical person and a GoTo system is almost certainly the right choice for him. The easier it is to see something cool through the eyepiece, the better;

This is a cause for concern.  Some people just don't get on with GoTo systems and prefer the more basic manual aim-and-look outfits.  However the Celestron Nexstar system is easier to use than Skywatcher's Synscan and we get fewer messages about it here from baffled newbies.  A GoTo system does not align itself - the alignment is a operator procedure that can take several minutes (though if you have a Starsense + GPS you will be closer to this ideal provided the thing works properly).

The 8SE is definitely a more capable instrument, but the 127mm Mak being smaller and lighter is potentially a more versatile instrument and I have used mine for general viewing, viewing galaxies from a dark skies site, sunspot viewing (with full aperture filter) spotting planets in daylight, and (with a manual AZ-4 mount) as a quickly deployed grab'n go.

Both can be used for planetary imaging, but I gather your father will not be interested in that.

As commented above, the C8's SE mount is on the limits, but if you keep the legs retracted and have a stool to sit on, and are at a site sheltered from the wind, it is perfectly usable (for visual use).  You only need the red dot finder for setting up so no need to replace it right away (on the other hand they seem unreliable so a better quality replacement may be needed at some point).   As standard the C8 SE comes with one decent eyepiece, a 25mm Plossl, and a decent prism diagonal.  You will need some higher powered eyepieces in addition, but the scope is f10 so no need to buy anything fancy.  If budget is not a problem you should consider the more expensive Evolution variant which has a better quality mount (but not necessarily a better quality tripod).

Similar remarks apply to the 127 Mak SLT outfit. The higher power (9 or 10mm) eyepiece in the kit needs replacing with something decent to do justice to the Mak's first-rate optics. I found the SLT tripod to be annoyingly wobbly and I no longer use it.  It is necessary to extend the slim legs to get the scope to a usable height.  After a while I made a permanent garden installation to replace the tripod and 'bowl',  or I put the Mak on an AZ-4.

I don't use wireless connections, preferring to use the handsets - less to set up, less to go wrong, less to troubleshoot.

Edited April 29, 2021 by Cosmic Geoff

[Spile]

8 hours ago, pointedstick said:

He's a very non-technical person and a GoTo system is almost certainly the right choice for him.

I would carefully consider this and discuss with your father as it may not be the case. The simplicity of a point and go Dobsonian with a Telrad and copy of Turn Left at Orion is one I would also consider. It certainly works for me.

[pointedstick]

Thank you so much for the replies, everyone!

I understand that this is kind of an inherently technical hobby and there is no magic bullet that makes it a "point and click" affair. However I think this is kind of what my dad is looking for, to the greatest possible extent. We had a manual telescope when I was a kid and he didn't use it that much, even though he wanted to. The more abstracted the user interface, the better it will be for him. So he's figured out an iPad because it's a very simple and friendly user interface, which is what made me think that the smartphone app control would be the way to go. The marketing literature led me to believe that alignment is something that a GoTo system basically takes care of automatically. Is this not the case? Can it be made the case, somehow? If not, hopefully I can figure it out and show him how to do it (that's the relationship we have with computers lol).

If the 8SE is marginal for its mount and the 6SE would be better, I'm all ears. Lighter and more portable would be a plus. If it was a shoot-out between the 6SE and the 127SLT, what do you folks think the winner should be?

I had not been considering the Evolution line as the models seem quite a bit heavier than the equivalent aperture SE versions.

Thanks again!

[Marki]

My first scope was an 8SE. I'm not really tech savvy, but I found goto quite easy after a while, once I'd got the hang of the alignment routine. And under the very light polluted skies I used to live under, I think I'd have been lost without it if I'd had to manually find my way around to begin with.

 

[dark knight]

Accessory wise you will almost certainly require a long dew shield to stop dew forming on the front glass element,  you can easily make one from a camping mat. My 4se suffered terribly from dew forming on the front glass.

[happy-kat]

When situations allow I think I'd suggest going to an open session at a local astronomy club and have a look through telescopes and understand what it's about. Maybe you father would come away enthused or that's not really for me.

[dweller25]

Hello @pointedstick and welcome to SGL.

There are two basic methods of viewing.

1. Manually find an object, point the scope at it and push the scope to track it - requires learning where objects are.

2. GOTO computerisation - requires you to learn the supplied manual then align the scope and calibrate it’s position using 2 or 3 stars. The scope will then track automatically.

Either way there is a learning curve that cannot  be avoided.

As mentioned above, it may be better to wait until covid allows you to visit your local astronomy club to check out what your dad prefers.

If you cannot wait the 6SE would be a very good, lightweight all rounder.

Edited May 1, 2021 by dweller25

[Cosmic Geoff]

9 hours ago, pointedstick said:

I understand that this is kind of an inherently technical hobby and there is no magic bullet that makes it a "point and click" affair. However I think this is kind of what my dad is looking for, to the greatest possible extent. We had a manual telescope when I was a kid and he didn't use it that much, even though he wanted to. The more abstracted the user interface, the better it will be for him. So he's figured out an iPad because it's a very simple and friendly user interface, which is what made me think that the smartphone app control would be the way to go. The marketing literature led me to believe that alignment is something that a GoTo system basically takes care of automatically. Is this not the case? Can it be made the case, somehow? If not, hopefully I can figure it out and show him how to do it (that's the relationship we have with computers lol).

If the 8SE is marginal for its mount and the 6SE would be better, I'm all ears. Lighter and more portable would be a plus. If it was a shoot-out between the 6SE and the 127SLT, what do you folks think the winner should be?

I had not been considering the Evolution line as the models seem quite a bit heavier than the equivalent aperture SE versions.

GoTo systems absolutely do NOT align them selves automatically.  An alignment has to be performed at the start of the session and then the mount can go to objects automatically.  The alignment requires some operator action and (usually) some basic knowledge of which bright star is which.  The Nexstar+ system has an option (Skyalign) for aligning on three bright objects even if you don't know what they are.   To a degree the alignment can be automated by two devices - the Starsense accessory (costing several hundred dollars) takes images of the sky and plate-solves them to figure out the alignment. And you still need to enter the location, time and date by hand.  If you add a GPS module this takes care of the location, time and date entry.  In theory, a GoTo, Starsense and GPS would do all the work for you, but in practice this is a complex collection of electronics and may not always work as well as hoped.   I have Starsense, and find that while it works fine when calibrated, on subsequent nights it has an annoying tendency to consistently place the desired object just outside the field of view.  In other words, your Dad may require a favourite-son accessory when using a Goto scope. 😀

However, either Starsense OR GPS for me reduces the alignment effort to below the threshold of annoyance.

I would not say the 6SE is 'better' - just a better match for the 6/8 SE mount.  And it costs nearly as much as a 8SE, which is probably why most buyers seem to go for the bigger scope.

So far as I am aware, the Evolution line is not significantly heavier than the SE line.  The OTAs (telescope tubes) are identical and the tripods mostly look the same.  The CPC line of fork mounts on the other hand are far heavier and decidedly not portable.  (Weights on sales listings are not alveys reliable).

6SE and 127SLT is not a level comparison.  The former is more expensive, has a larger aperture and has a more stable mount.

[Tiny Clanger]

On 29/04/2021 at 03:35, pointedstick said:

He's a very non-technical person and a GoTo system is almost certainly the right choice for him. The easier it is to see something cool through the eyepiece, the better; if it's too fiddly or too hard to use, he just won't use it. He lives in a somewhat non-optimal location with a lot of light pollution (Bortle 6) and tree cover, so it will have to be a travel-friendly unit. He has mostly talked about wanting to look at planets and moons and the ISS, but he might possibly be interested in galaxies and nebulas too--if the result is not too disappointing with a travel-friendly scope. He won't be doing any photography.

OK, so you reckon he will want a travel  friendly 'scope, primarily for lunar & planetary viewing, but a bit of everything ... No-one with a little knowledge of astronomy needs a computerised mount to find Mars Saturn or Jupiter or obviously the Moon , so a decently mounted , reasonably good quality 'scope of any kind would fulfil his initial needs, as long as you avoid anything with an enormously long focal length .

Long focal length = great magnification = small portion of the sky in view = harder to line up and find your target. Better to go with less focal length, middling mag, , more chance of finding what you seek. In practical terms, I have a 1500mm focal length mak , and am glad it was not my first 'scope, as I know I'd have struggled with aiming  it as a beginner, while my first 'scope, a 750mm newtonian on a dobsonian mount , was far more forgiving . On the other hand, my 400mm refractor just does not have the magnification for planets ... but is really easy to find things in, it shows such a wide swathe of sky ...

10 hours ago, pointedstick said:

I understand that this is kind of an inherently technical hobby and there is no magic bullet that makes it a "point and click" affair. However I think this is kind of what my dad is looking for, to the greatest possible extent. We had a manual telescope when I was a kid and he didn't use it that much, even though he wanted to. The more abstracted the user interface, the better it will be for him. So he's figured out an iPad because it's a very simple and friendly user interface,

I'd argue that the simplest and most friendly user interface is a dobsonian mount and some knowledge of the night sky, but a dob may not be what you want in terms of portability, so how about an alt az mount on a steel tripod, practically , and on it practically any type of 'scope in the 127 to 150mm aperture range ( a newtonian, a maksutov, a refractor )  and a push to system ?

Push to systems differ from go to in that you steer the tube of the 'scope yourself, the screen just shows you what you are pointing at, and gives (I believe ) an arrow or similar suggesting the direction to steer toward a target.

There is a Celestron version where you buy a mount to attach a 'phone to the 'scope and app

  https://www.celestron.com/pages/starsense-explorer-technology

and a free android app which apparently works in a similar way, but you need to work out how to mount the 'phone

https://lavadip.com/skeye/book/virtualdsc

Advantages over a go-to are less tech inbetween  observer and space , much lighter weight , less toting batteries (just a backup power bank for the 'phone) , more flexibility in use : if he decides he doesn't need electronic assistance any more, just don't attach the 'phone , if he loves it and gets another 'scope, it will work with anything. Plus you've smuggled a smartphone into his affections, .... 🙂

I should say, I've not used either of these (I tried, but unfortunately my elderly smartphone does not have all of the sensors to run SkEye ) so am in no way an expert, but as a straightforward way to add some computer magic into observing they do seem very interesting options.

Oh, and the eyepiece question :most telescope packages have one or two eyepieces included, they are never excellent, sometimes adequate, often rubbish. Once you have decided on a 'scope, come back and ask for suggestions on upgrades for what you get in the package.

Heather

 

[RT65CB-SWL]

I agree with what has been said above by other SGL’ers. Unfortunately no ‘scope does all in this hobby and some of us have more than one ‘scope... I myself have three. 

If it is going to be a surprise gift and you do not want him to know about it, then this guide may help… https://www.firstlightoptics.com/beginner-telescopes.html

Edited May 3, 2021 by Philip R

[saac]

pointedstick, firstly a very warm welcome to SGL.  People are offering good advice here but don't be overly concerned about the complexity of alignment or operating a goto system.  These systems are in fact pretty straightforward to use menu driven procedures. Once you have read the manual and carried out 2 or three alignments it will become second nature.  There are also plenty of amazing You Tube videos giving step by step support.  In my opinion, If your dad is happy using an ipad, then he will be more than capable of aligning the telescope and using goto. In any respect, the telescope will still function perfectly in manual mode - something I do with mine quite often. One of the fun parts of astronomy, for some, is getting all the technical wizardry to work .  I personally would be looking at the 8 inch SE -  the larger aperture would do it for me and I think would be the better longer term investment.  Good luck and have fun with the purchase, your dad will enjoy it. Something for both of you to get a kick out of learning to use it together .  

Jim 

[saac]

 

ps - I dont know if anybody has mentioned it but I would also download and install a copy of Stellarium  - digital planetarium, it will help your dad navigate the night sky making it easier to identify those alignment stars. 

Edited May 1, 2021 by saac

[Louis D]

Watch out for the pitfall of getting a scope that takes a fair bit of setup.  I find I use scopes that can be hauled out in one go more than scopes that require several trips and some assembly outdoors.  I've read of others as well who use scopes less that require more assembly.  If you can carry a fully assembled C8 SE out the door in one trip, more power to you.  I find it too awkward and top heavy to do that.

[Cosmic Geoff]

31 minutes ago, Louis D said:

If you can carry a fully assembled C8 SE out the door in one trip, more power to you.  I find it too awkward and top heavy to do that.

I am 72 and unfit, and I can carry mine. 🙂

[pointedstick]

4 hours ago, Tiny Clanger said:

I'd argue that the simplest and most friendly user interface is a dobsonian mount and some knowledge of the night sky, but a dob may not be what you want in terms of portability, so how about an alt az mount on a steel tripod, practically , and on it practically any type of 'scope in the 127 to 150mm aperture range ( a newtonian, a maksutov, a refractor )  and a push to system ?

Push to systems differ from go to in that you steer the tube of the 'scope yourself, the screen just shows you what you are pointing at, and gives (I believe ) an arrow or similar suggesting the direction to steer toward a target.

There is a Celestron version where you buy a mount to attach a 'phone to the 'scope and app

  https://www.celestron.com/pages/starsense-explorer-technology

and a free android app which apparently works in a similar way, but you need to work out how to mount the 'phone

https://lavadip.com/skeye/book/virtualdsc

Advantages over a go-to are less tech inbetween  observer and space , much lighter weight , less toting batteries (just a backup power bank for the 'phone) , more flexibility in use : if he decides he doesn't need electronic assistance any more, just don't attach the 'phone , if he loves it and gets another 'scope, it will work with anything. Plus you've smuggled a smartphone into his affections, .... 🙂

I should say, I've not used either of these (I tried, but unfortunately my elderly smartphone does not have all of the sensors to run SkEye ) so am in no way an expert, but as a straightforward way to add some computer magic into observing they do seem very interesting options.

Oh, and the eyepiece question :most telescope packages have one or two eyepieces included, they are never excellent, sometimes adequate, often rubbish. Once you have decided on a 'scope, come back and ask for suggestions on upgrades for what you get in the package.

Heather

 

Thank you so much, Heather. I think this "PushTo" thing is exactly what we need.

I had been hoping to make it a surprise birthday present, but decided that I needed to involve my dad in this purchase, and he really really liked the idea of this. It seems perfect as a sort of "semi-automatic" system where you point the scope, with with a pointing aid on your phone. It was very appealing to him.

Is this a technology that you can plug into any manual telescope, or would it require buying one of these? https://www.celestron.com/products/starsense-explorer-dx-130az

I think the use of a smartphone would be mandatory for my dad with one of these, but given that, something in the 6-8" aperture range would be ideal.

How annoying are reflectors to collimate and maintain?

[PEMS]

Assuming that there is some technical ability, I would say a William Optics ZS81 and the Skywatcher Az GTi mount. The scope looks very good and very nice.

May not be the largest aperture but will I expect be more what your father expects a scope to be. Also 80mm is likely one of the best all round sizes around, and the WO will, or at least should, produce excellent views. Many of the objects for large apertures have to catch that they remain small. Besides a large aperture you also need the potential of big magnifications and after a point even they work against you. A big magnification carries with it a reduced field of view and so not easy to use.

A large aperture is stated as showing more, but more can be seeing something bigger, or more small objects. So be careful of the use of "more".

A WO ZS81 will require a diagonal and a couple of eyepieces, you are in the US so perhaps look up the Astro Tech Paradigm range, maybe the ES 52 degree range. If you did then say 8mm, 12mm, 25mm in Paradigms and similar in the ES52's - I do not know the ES52 focal lengths off by heart.

The mount is best if operated by an android tablet with Skysafari. You do a Level and North alignment and assuming successful you/father switches in or over tio Skysafari. On the Skysafari screen you touch the target then Goto, and hopefully off it slews to the target.

Although may sound "technical" it is actually easy. May be an idea if you were there the first couple of times, if you are very unsure, and write down the series of steps. Then father could refer to them.

Main problem may be sourcing the items.

If you were concerned about balance of the scope then find the static balance point of the dovetail, with a diagonal and a representative eyepiece, and apply a small self adhesive dot. That then sits in the center of the mounting unit on the mount - easy simple solution and quick.

Will say be a little careful, father may know more then you think, may know a lot more.

[Tiny Clanger]

25 minutes ago, pointedstick said:

Thank you so much, Heather. I think this "PushTo" thing is exactly what we need.

I had been hoping to make it a surprise birthday present, but decided that I needed to involve my dad in this purchase, and he really really liked the idea of this. It seems perfect as a sort of "semi-automatic" system where you point the scope, with with a pointing aid on your phone. It was very appealing to him.

Is this a technology that you can plug into any manual telescope, or would it require buying one of these? https://www.celestron.com/products/starsense-explorer-dx-130az

I think the use of a smartphone would be mandatory for my dad with one of these, but given that, something in the 6-8" aperture range would be ideal.

How annoying are reflectors to collimate and maintain?

You're welcome.

I'm sorry, I don't know f the starsense is available as an add on to put on any scope , but if you do a search on here about it I think you will find some members actually bought a cheap 'scope which included it, just to get the push to kit to remove and use on a better 'scope ! I've no clue about the Celstron 'scopes it is bundled with , I'm sure someone else will have an opinion on them though .

Maintaining reflectors , there I do have a slightly informed opinion though   as long as a reflector is capped when not in use, the mirror shouldn't need cleaning for many years, maybe even a decade or more. Collimation does have some scare stories , but my personal experience is that my skywatcher 150 holds collimation very well, it seldom needs any adjustment. On the rare occasions when it does need tweaking a careful cautious approach making just tiny adjustments soon has it sorted.

There are very many collimation explanations of varying clarity on the internet,  the one I like is the uncomplicated approach outlined here https://garyseronik.com/a-beginners-guide-to-collimation/

Heather

[Cosmic Geoff]

Beware the term 'push-to'.  Conventionally this means the mount is equipped with encoders which track the motions of the scope and computes and displays where the scope is pointing. This required that the outfit is aligned before use in the same manner as a GoTo mount.  The system is popular (in the US) with owners of larg Dobsonians. A push-to system is similar in cost to a GoTo outfit.

Starsense refers to two different things - a hardware accessory costing several hundred dollars, and a smartphone app that uses the same plate-solving technology.  I have no experience of the latter. 

[pointedstick]

We have decided on the StarSense Explorer DX 130AZ. I think this will be a good starter scope and we can upgrade later if he really likes it a lot and wants something bigger or more automatic. Thanks for your help, everyone.

Would folks suggest additional/different eyepieces, or are the included ones (a 10mm and a 25mm) serviceable?

[Cosmic Geoff]

38 minutes ago, pointedstick said:

Would folks suggest additional/different eyepieces, or are the included ones (a 10mm and a 25mm) serviceable?

I suspect that in common with various other lower priced outfits, the included eyepieces are intended as 'starters' and after you have tried out the scope you could think of upgrading them if you feel it is worthwhile.  My experience of the 'starter' 10mm eyepieces is that they are a 3 element design and not very good.

[pointedstick]

One update: we're actually thinking the DX 102AZ might be better as it is a refractor that won't ever require collimation.

Would the 4" refractor version produce worse views than the 5" reflector version?