Powerline Adapter Ethernet to Observatory.

[Astro-Geek]

I've read quite a few threads on here about this subject, but I'd like to ask about member's experiences with different manufacturer's devices.

I'm trying to connect my Windows NUC in my Skyshed Pod observatory to my house network's PCs and the Internet. (To enable internet access, file transfer, and remote control of the telescopes from the house.)  It all works really well when the observatory kit is tested in the house with a direct LAN cable connection to my home network.

I'm having problems when it's installed in the Observatory and I try to connect via  Devolo Powerline plugs. I have had it working, but it mostly doesn't connect when tried after a day or so.

I know I should have simply run an ethernet cable in the power conduit to the observatory, but I didn't, and I'm too old and decrepit now to dig another trench !

There's a lot of controversy over powerline transmission on different ring circuits and extension leads, but some people have reported no problems over differing circuits, as long as everything is on the same phase, (as in normal single phase domestic house wiring ).

My fibre optic broadband router is on the first floor of the house. and the Devolo main powerline plug is connected to that via a short LAN lead.

The observatory is about 25 metres from the house via an armored 20 amp cable which is connected to the garage consumer unit, which in turn is connected to a separate 15 amp MCB on the main house consumer unit via a dedicated 2.5 T&E spur.

If there is a significant problem with separate rings and consumer units, the I'm certainly "pushing it" with my arrangement.

I was wondering though if different manufacturer's powerline units are more or less susceptible to different rings  mains ?  I chose Devolo because they seemed to have a good reputation, being a bit more upmarket than the cheaper units.

 

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by Astro-Geek

[DaveL59]

is there a consumer unit in the obsy?

You can get issues crossing the fuseboard from ring to ring and I'd expect the same if crossing consumer units esp if fitted with an RCD.

Another thought, if it works when you first power them up, are the units/network ports configured to sleep/run in green mode?
If so then disable that and perhaps have the obsy NUC run a periodic ping to the main router to keep the link alive.

Edited February 17, 2020 by DaveL59

[discardedastro]

No, they'll all suck in the same basic way - it's what powerline does. The problems with it are intrinsic.

If you're up on the first floor and have line-of-sight from the house to the observatory (or near it) then a wireless bridge is the correct answer.

Ubiquiti do a range of perfectly good radios e.g. https://linitx.com/product/ubiquiti-airmax-nanobeam-ac-network-bridge-19dbi-gen2-nbe-5ac-gen2/15056 which will link A to B with reliable high speeds. They'll even work through some vegetation.

 

[Astro-Geek]

7 minutes ago, DaveL59 said:

is there a consumer unit in the obsy?

You can get issues crossing the fuseboard from ring to ring and I'd expect the same if crossing consumer units esp if fitted with an RCD.

Another thought, if it works when you first power them up, are the units/network ports configured to sleep/run in green mode?
If so then disable that and perhaps have the obsy NUC run a periodic ping to the main router to keep the link alive.

Thanks for the very rapid reply Dave.

No consumer unit on the obsy, just a 20amp DP isolating switch where it enters, because it's fed from the garage consumer unit, which already has a 15amp mcb and elcb main switch from the house spur.

...and Yes, the Devolo's are still in the default power saving mode, so that may be a very good point, I'll try disabling power saving and see if it's more reliable.  ( As I mentioned, I have had it working quite well, 10 mBits file transfer and remote control from the house via windows remote desktop, which is what has been confusing me, the fact that it has actually worked.)

[Astro-Geek]

11 minutes ago, discardedastro said:

No, they'll all suck in the same basic way - it's what powerline does. The problems with it are intrinsic.

If you're up on the first floor and have line-of-sight from the house to the observatory (or near it) then a wireless bridge is the correct answer.

Ubiquiti do a range of perfectly good radios e.g. https://linitx.com/product/ubiquiti-airmax-nanobeam-ac-network-bridge-19dbi-gen2-nbe-5ac-gen2/15056 which will link A to B with reliable high speeds. They'll even work through some vegetation.

 

Thanks for the very rapid reply.

My Devolo powerline set up certainly "sucks" reliability-wise. 🙂, but it has run really well when it did connect.

I'll try Dave's suggestion of switching off the power saving, and see if that has any effect on the non connection after a day or two.

Failing that, I guess I'll have to go the wifi bridge route, though I'm trying to avoid the extra cabling that will entail, as the obsy is at the back of the house, and the fibre optic router is at the front upstairs.

 

[discardedastro]

2 minutes ago, Astro-Geek said:

Thanks for the very rapid reply.

My Devolo powerline set up certainly "sucks" reliability-wise. 🙂, but it has run really well when it did connect.

I'll try Dave's suggestion of switching off the power saving, and see if that has any effect on the non connection after a day or two.

Failing that, I guess I'll have to go the wifi bridge route, though I'm trying to avoid the extra cabling that will entail, as the obsy is at the back of the house, and the fibre optic router is at the front upstairs.

 

The easiest way to do cabling if you have complicated internals and can drill holes in the house is to drill out and tack the cable on around the outside of the house. All you need is UV-stabilised Ethernet cable and either crimp-on connectors or a wall box and module plus a crimp tool. Quite straightforward to do without too much faff - bit of fiddling at the ends but that's all.

EoPL is broadly an evil thing and best avoided - WiFi will achieve far better speeds.

The other option you might have - depending on the signal you can get at the back of the back of the house - would be to use just one of those WiFi bridge devices at the observatory end. If there's enough link budget spare you don't necessarily need two high-gain ends.

[stash_old]

Cost of Ethernet outside grade cable with connectors 50m - £65

above ground Flexi conduit 50m                                         - £30

Speed 1gb and min latency - assuming gb hub. Work 99.99% of the time and is plug and go.

Ubiquiti airmax bridges      X 2                                            - £180

Speed 450mb max and does have Wifi latency .

Ethernet over powerlines 

https://www.techadvisor.co.uk/test-centre/network-wifi/best-powerline-adapters-3490638/

Say upto 2gb but thats just a load of ********

 

[DaveL59]

which Devolo unit is it as 10Mbps is pretty low, tho I've not tried linking the shed with it here as I ran a cat5e cable in copex out to it instead. The later MIMO type EoP are ok, I generally see 450-650Mbps internally here across rings via the TPlink GBit units I have, primarily for 1080P CCTV. Wireless for that would be useless (tried it and found it doesn't handle live CCTV streaming on 8 cameras particularly well, even at 4 it wasn't good). The UART in some EoP units can tend to drop out so a periodic ping helps keep the link established, in fact the TPlink ones I have had a similar issue if the link idles, but I run a network monitor that regularly polls out to every device as well as disabling any green/power-save features (EoP, Switches and the PC's connected). Oh and do not mix EoP types, if you place older (slower) and newer (faster) on the mains the entire set will slow to the lowest standard/speed.

If you do go with running ethernet be sure to put surge arrestors each end just in case. Ubiquiti do them and they're well regarded.

Edited February 17, 2020 by DaveL59

[JonC]

I can lend you some TP link ones if you want to try them. Have run them for a couple of years then shifted to BT mesh when I had FTTP installed.

[spillage]

I know at work we have linked several warehouse's together using standard cat5 that runs overhead. I have been there for 16 years and it has never needed to be changed. I too have ran standard cat5 outside around the perimeter fence and all seems okay for now. Its only cheap so easy to replace.

[DaveL59]

4 minutes ago, spillage said:

I know at work we have linked several warehouse's together using standard cat5 that runs overhead. I have been there for 16 years and it has never needed to be changed. I too have ran standard cat5 outside around the perimeter fence and all seems okay for now. Its only cheap so easy to replace.

I'd not leave regular cat5 exposed to UV/weather as it'll degrade. Cheap yes but hassle when you least need it usually. I also used regular Cat5 but ran it in copex to protect it from the weather. Also worth making sure you get proper cat5e and not the cheapie CCA type that turns up a lot. Esp if you are running power down it (PoE). CCA degrades much more in extreme conditions, but you may not notice much it unless you're pushing lots of traffic across it.

[DaveL59]

oh, another thing to check with your EoP setup, is it being aflicted by any other electrical devices?

Some LED and some CFL lights can be a noise nightmare and seriously affect the speed in a negative way. Over the distance your signal is travelling that could cause it to drop out too. Likewise fridge compressors, washing machine etc, worth checking the effects while monitoring the link speeds.

[Astro-Geek]

Thanks again, so many informative replies in such a short space of time.

I'll work my way through the comments and suggestions.

I've tried the idea about disabling the power saving, but unfortunately that was already set to "off".

[DaveL59]

worth checking the devices hanging off the EoP also - the NIC on the PC/NUC and also the router

[JamesF]

I've never managed to get powerline ethernet to work reliably, even within the house.  I've not tried with both devices on the same ring, as that's not particularly useful to me anyhow.

If I really didn't want to dig a trench I'd probably buy a load of cat5e and run it inside conduit along walls or fences between the house and observatory (inside conduit because around here there's always some damn stupid animal that will decide to see how tasty cabling is even if it's carrying 240V mains).  Or if you're not likely to garotte yourself on it, run a catenary wire and use it to carry some cat5e with UV stable sheathing.  If you don't want to make up the ends yourself, which isn't hard given the right tools but can take a little practice, you might even be able to buy suitable lengths already made up.  And run two cables.  Always run at least two cables.

An alternative would be to use optic fibre instead of cat5e, with media converters at each end.  Probably a better solution technically, but a bit more expensive.

Or you could try using wifi.  That's what I'm doing until I get around to digging another trench.  It works for me, but it's not brilliant across the 20m or so to the observatory and transferring lots of FITS files to the house takes a while.  It would probably be better if I used directional aerials, but it's not a "forever" solution so I'm not going to worry about it.

James

[discardedastro]

14 minutes ago, JamesF said:

I've never managed to get powerline ethernet to work reliably, even within the house.  I've not tried with both devices on the same ring, as that's not particularly useful to me anyhow.

If I really didn't want to dig a trench I'd probably buy a load of cat5e and run it inside conduit along walls or fences between the house and observatory (inside conduit because around here there's always some damn stupid animal that will decide to see how tasty cabling is even if it's carrying 240V mains).  Or if you're not likely to garotte yourself on it, run a catenary wire and use it to carry some cat5e with UV stable sheathing.  If you don't want to make up the ends yourself, which isn't hard given the right tools but can take a little practice, you might even be able to buy suitable lengths already made up.  And run two cables.  Always run at least two cables.

An alternative would be to use optic fibre instead of cat5e, with media converters at each end.  Probably a better solution technically, but a bit more expensive.

Or you could try using wifi.  That's what I'm doing until I get around to digging another trench.  It works for me, but it's not brilliant across the 20m or so to the observatory and transferring lots of FITS files to the house takes a while.  It would probably be better if I used directional aerials, but it's not a "forever" solution so I'm not going to worry about it.

James

For a short run I'd just go for conduit or UV-stabilised cable. Currently my telescope sits permanently connected under a TG365 cover on the end of a 50m UV-stable patch cord which goes into a switch in my greenhouse. Super simple, super cheap, will last for years. £30 of cable - kind of hard to beat.

[Horwig]

I used to run the obsy on Netgear ethernet over mains adaptors. When they worked they were good, but would drop out not infrequently.

The obsy was powered from the breaker board in my workshop/shed next to it, the run from the house to the shed was cabled in SWA.

The adaptor in the shed eventually gave up the ghost three years ago, when I was away for a month in winter, and powered it down. I assume it didn't much like the damp on power up.

I now run the obsy in SWA ethernet cable from the house, seemed to solve all problems.

 

Huw

Edited February 17, 2020 by Horwig

[JamesF]

1 minute ago, Horwig said:

I used to run the obsy on Netgear ethernet over mains adaptors. When they worked they were good, but would drop out not infrequently.

The obsy was powered from the breaker board in my workshop/shed next to it, the run from the house to the shed was cabled in SWA.

The adaptor in the shed eventually gave up the ghost three years ago, when 

Looks like something's broken again :D

James

[Horwig]

1 minute ago, JamesF said:

Looks like something's broken again

James

Typing in a hurry doesn't work does it..., too many thumbs, not enough brain power

[old_eyes]

My experience has not been as bad as many who have commented, but I have probably been lucky. I laid Ethernet in the trench with the armoured power cable, but just to check some things out before wiring up the Ethernet at both ends I plugged in a 200Mps devolo unit. Worked straight off and I get 80 Mps regularly. So I have not got around to connecting the Ethernet cable. Anydesk works fine and allows me to run the Obsy computer remotely. I know I could get much faster speeds,but what do I need them for? Yes it’s a bit slow uploading an evening’s work to my NAS, but in runs in the background and does not need my attention.

my house is a funny shape with 1 metre thick stone walls, so I have used power line extensively as wi-fi is a non starter.Power to Obsy is from an RCD way in the consumer unit over 75m armoured cable to a small consumer unit in the Obsy. Main router is connected to another devolo unit plugged into a ring main connected to another consumer unit about 25m further away. I have one a devolo unit that drops out about once every couple of weeks, so it needs to be unplugged and plugged in again. The other four units including the obsy have been rock solid.

Not saying the others are wrong, but clearly mileage varies.

[JamesF]

2 minutes ago, old_eyes said:

Not saying the others are wrong, but clearly mileage varies.

This does seem to be true.  And therein lies the problem I think, as it seems to be far from obvious what actually causes the mileage to vary

James

[old_eyes]

Agreed. The socket I have problems with is actually closest to the main consumer unit. Why? Who knows! Throughput varies unit by unit with no apparent logic, but fortunately always high enough for streaming video services or stuff from my NAS.

However, since it works at the moment I am just riding my luck!

[Astro-Geek]

I've found all these responses to my OP question very interesting (thanks) 👍, and they've confirmed the hit and miss nature of powerline.

How I wish I'd run my armored mains cable in a plastic conduit with a cat5 cable in it !

I've been successfully making my own tailored length ethernet cables for years with a cheapo RJ45 crimper (and a neat little tester), so it would have been easy.    c'est la vie.......

I'll try some of the suggestions on here, (starting with the easiest 🤓), and then if I get a reliable result I'll resurrect this thread with the result, in case anyone else is struggling with the same problems.

[Dr_Ju_ju]

If you already have the connectors\crimper, then buy some of this (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/External-Outdoor-Cat5E-FULL-COPPER-Network-Ethernet-Cable-FTP-UTP-Reel-Lot-Cat5/381837841197?epid=14001991729&hash=item58e74f132d:m:mwQOmL3g59EZPfeqt8CT6tQ)

At 50m for £16, which to my mind, is a no brainer, you can just tack it to the side of fence panels etc. then forget about connectivity issues.

[Guest]

Power Line Adaptors are the work of the Devil, if you happen to be a radio ham living in the vicinity! The amount of RFI they give out on HF, VHF and UHF is dreadful.😮  I could imagine it would kill the hobby for some radio hams, even more so if they do radio astronomy in the HF region of the radio spectrum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IW3FVhHR58

Edited February 18, 2020 by Guest