Learning Photoshop?

[david_taurus83]

A bit late for new year resolutions but here is mine. I'm going to learn how to process with Photoshop. Seeing as you cant seem to buy older versions, I've very begrudgingly signed up to the £10 per month plan. The problem is I havent got a clue how to use it! I have primarily used Pixinsight up to now but I would like to add PS to my workflow. I learned how to use PI by watching youtube tutorials and then buying the book by which time I had a fairly good handle of the layout and processes of the software. I have subscribed to @carastro Carole's channel as it looks very good for a beginner like myself to follow. I also have Steve's book (Dark Art or Magic Bullet) but I havent really looked into it too much. I had a go at a trial of PS a while ago but lazely reverted back to PI. I'd like to try and learn PS kind of the same as I learned PI. Watching good beginner focused video tutorials, generating a familiar workflow and once comfortable refining techniques with the books. So, are there any other youtube channels out there solely focused on AP processing to compliment Carole's? The few I have watched briefly tend to move quickly through the processing and they look good (AstroBackyad etc) but it looks like your expected to have an existing knowledge of PS.

 

[Owmuchonomy]

I found this very useful for getting the most from Photoshop.  http://www.astronomersdoitinthedark.com/dslr_llrgb_tutorial.php

[wxsatuser]

Jerry Lodriguss has a downloadable book for beginners, $40 not to bad for a lot of info.

http://www.astropix.com/bgaip/bgaip.html

 

[newbie alert]

Loads of videos on u tube, pick out the ones that suit you and your taste  and work with those methods..

[david_taurus83]

6 hours ago, newbie alert said:

Loads of videos on u tube, pick out the ones that suit you and your taste  and work with those methods..

Yes, loads of videos but the purpose of my post was to try and pinpoint the videos aimed solely at the beginner like myself. Once I have established a basic understanding I can watch the more advanced ones and try further techniques as I learn.

[david_taurus83]

So far, I have watched some basic levels and curves videos and managed to come up with this. 240 x 60s at ISO1600. Just levels and curves and a bit of denoise. There is more to be had and plenty of dust to try and tease out further. Looking back, PI wasnt as straight forward when I started. Even with this data, I'm struggling with ABE in PI to remove a bad gradient on the right hand side of the image without damaging it too much whereas the trial of Gradientxterminator in PS dealt with it relatively easily?!

[wxsatuser]

Nice lot of detail in the data but colour needs looking at.

[david_taurus83]

1 hour ago, wxsatuser said:

Nice lot of detail in the data but colour needs looking at.

Thanks, haven't got to colour yet! Also, theres hardly any background to pick. No wonder I struggled with ABE in Pixinsight!

[ollypenrice]

There are plenty of videos online but some of them are absolute rubbish and are put out by people who haven't the slightest idea of what they are doing. It is usually easy to spot these. When you hear phrases like, 'I usually just play about with xxxxx till it looks right,' stop watching. Any competent image processor knows what they are doing with each tool and will tell you what it does and how it affects the image. They will not simply present a series of clicks and draggings. (Draggings is a new word! 🤣)

Expert names to trust: Jerry Lodigruss, Robert Gendler, Adam Block, Warren Keller, Tony Hallas, R Jay GaBany. There are many others but do make the most of Steve's book. It is very sound.

One thing to start doing straight away is to enhance your ability to make a critique of an image. When we start we are likely to be impressed by all images. Greater discernment comes with experience. Is the sky a neutral dark grey but not jet black? Is there an overall colour caste which shouldn't be there? Green, magenta, red, whatever? Is there any visible noise reduction? There shouldn't be. Is the image too noisy? A little grain is good, more than a little is not. Are the stars small, tight and credible in colour? Are any parts of the image saturated, burned to white? There are so many things to appreciate that it does take time to become a good observer of images.

Your image seems a little red-dominated and you might be able to rescue the Trapezium by making a much softer stretch and blending it like this: http://www.astropix.com/html/j_digit/laymask.html

Olly

Edited February 18, 2020 by ollypenrice

[newbie alert]

17 hours ago, david_taurus83 said:

Yes, loads of videos but the purpose of my post was to try and pinpoint the videos aimed solely at the beginner like myself. Once I have established a basic understanding I can watch the more advanced ones and try further techniques as I learn.

Fair enough but judging on what you're showing you're not doing too bad so far...

Beginners make the sky black, clipping the data and not showing the background dust.. not so with you..

Looking at the image the star to the right of m42 looks abit odd, with a strange sort of spike, and the large star at the top of the horsehead looks like the red channel isn't aligned,got some sort of halo ...not sure what's going on there but on the whole it's a really nice image..looks like you're heading in the right direction on my taste..

Maybe shoot some very short subs for the core( trapezium) and blend it in..

Very good so far 

Edited February 18, 2020 by newbie alert
Added info

[steppenwolf]

There is plenty of fine detail in your data yet to be extracted so don't lose this as you can revisit it as you hone your skills. For now, concentrate on getting the background level a little lower and balancing the colour palette a little to reduce the red dominance - yes, of course there is plenty of lovely red nebulosity in this region but you want a more neutral background. My book, already in your possession will explain how to do this.

As for video, anything by Robert Gendler or Jerry Lodriguss is a must watch!

[rwilkey]

Hi David, I am not a photographer but a web designer so use PS quite a bit, but I have had a little go at your picture, the first is Image>Adjust>Curves, and the second is >Colour Balance as follows on top of the >Curves:

You would do well to separate the two subjects and treat them individually.  BTW, I was using an older version of PS: 5.5

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by rwilkey

[david_taurus83]

Thanks all for the advice. Yes, I agree my background could be lowered but kept it at around 35 as didn't want to loose the dust below M42. Hopefully can do something with masks as things progress. Regarding the halos and spikes, i believe these are reflections caused by my IDAS filters, both the D2 and NB1 show pronounced halos. I done some imaging last night without any filters and the halos appear to have gone but will stack some subs tonight just to be sure. Hopefully the good news is it's not the scope (Altair 70 EDQ-R flatfield quad) causing them but presents a problem with dealing with LP if I want to image without halos.

 

Below, single sub with D2 filter in the left, single sub with no filter on the right.

[ollypenrice]

33 minutes ago, david_taurus83 said:

Thanks all for the advice. Yes, I agree my background could be lowered but kept it at around 35 as didn't want to loose the dust below M42. Hopefully can do something with masks as things progress.

You can use masks as one way of separating dust from background. Carole did an admirably clear video on a technique of mine which makes use of the equalize filter. However, my first step in lifting faint glows out of the background uses a simple kink in Curves.

Put the cursor on some pure background sky and alt-click to put a point on the line at this brightness. Apply a fixing point to the line below that. Now put a third point on the line just above the first and lift it very slightly using the input-output values on the curves window. Finally return the line to straight so as to keep the upper brightnesses almost as they were. This will hold the pure background where it is and slightly brighten the faintest glows above the background while having little effect elsewhere. If your background sky is uneven be sure to pin it at a point where it is at its brightest or you'll introduce a gradient.

Here I'm trying to pull out the Owl's faint OIII halo. Background was pinned at 22. Fixing point placed at 12.

It's like trying to get a lever between two objects so you can prize them apart. Once you have them separated just a bit to start with there are lots of other techniques which are more subtle.

Olly

 

[david_taurus83]

Thanks Olly. Will give it a go!

[Astro_mark_c]

Found this thread very helpful and have copied some of thise URls to look at later, I was the beginner that made the background dark hiding all that detail haha.  At the moment trying to find a workflow that works for me.  I bought astro backyards e-book, but I'm finidng it quite hard to follow!  I've had some success with PixInsight.  

[Astro_mark_c]

On 17/02/2020 at 14:54, david_taurus83 said:

So far, I have watched some basic levels and curves videos and managed to come up with this. 240 x 60s at ISO1600. Just levels and curves and a bit of denoise. There is more to be had and plenty of dust to try and tease out further. Looking back, PI wasnt as straight forward when I started. Even with this data, I'm struggling with ABE in PI to remove a bad gradient on the right hand side of the image without damaging it too much whereas the trial of Gradientxterminator in PS dealt with it relatively easily?!

This looks great and lovin the detail in the horsehead and flame nebula, my biggest problem I'm having atm is the extreme vinguetting, with my lenses.

[david_taurus83]

37 minutes ago, Sidecontrol said:

This looks great and lovin the detail in the horsehead and flame nebula, my biggest problem I'm having atm is the extreme vinguetting, with my lenses.

Thanks! Pixinsight is good but PS has it's own tools and techniques for processing. I've not had another play yet but been watching plenty of videos. Doug German has some good beginner videos on youtube also.

[Astro_mark_c]

1 hour ago, david_taurus83 said:

Thanks! Pixinsight is good but PS has it's own tools and techniques for processing. I've not had another play yet but been watching plenty of videos. Doug German has some good beginner videos on youtube also.

Thanks, I'll give his tutorials a look through tonight.  I've used PS for years, but never in this way haha. 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Sidecontrol

[masjstovel]

I am new (1 year in, buying gear mostly) to astrophotography, but I have used PS alot over the last 3 years. 
Still alot for me to learn there, I'm definately no PS-pro:)
I reccommend Lumenzia plugin from Greg Benz. It's intended for masking based on luminosity (stars for example), but theres a wide spectre to mask from, like for example color too. I have seen AP-work done with Lumenzia with great results, and I have a feeling its sort of a "hidden treasure" regarding astro-photography. I bet AP wasn't in Greg Benz' mind when making the plugin.

 

Maybe its better to look at it further down the road if PS is all new, but he has made tons of instructional videos on lumenzia and luminosity masking in general. Worth a look! 

Edited February 24, 2020 by masjstovel

[masjstovel]

On 17/02/2020 at 15:54, david_taurus83 said:

So far, I have watched some basic levels and curves videos and managed to come up with this. 240 x 60s at ISO1600. Just levels and curves and a bit of denoise. There is more to be had and plenty of dust to try and tease out further. Looking back, PI wasnt as straight forward when I started. Even with this data, I'm struggling with ABE in PI to remove a bad gradient on the right hand side of the image without damaging it too much whereas the trial of Gradientxterminator in PS dealt with it relatively easily?!

That's just a lovely composition btw! 

[david_taurus83]

I think this is an improvement.

Admittedly, the first steps were done in Pixinsight. Cropping, DBE, Deconvolution, and initial colour balance and stretching. I then switched to Photoshop and followed the excellent tutorial on the link posted above http://www.astronomersdoitinthedark.com/dslr_llrgb_tutorial.php

Thanks @Owmuchonomy

As in the tutorial a lot of work is done on a pseudo Luminance image before applying to a colour version. Theres a lot of dust and I played around with some selective masks to bring it up a bit more. It probably doesnt look right now as its maybe too bright and the colour is wrong but I'm done with this image for now. Its probably the most popular target but by golly is it difficult to process! Leaving it at that! I think Photoshop has won me over as well.

Canon 6D, IDAS D2 filter

4 hours worth of 60s subs at ISO1600

First light with my Altair 70 EDQ-R

All mounted atop a dinky AZGTi in EQ mode.

Thanks everyone for the tips and advice!

@ollypenrice that's a neat technique with anchoring the black point and lifting the faint stuff just above it. It's also used in the tutorial.

Thanks @Davey-T  😉

 

 

[ollypenrice]

9 hours ago, david_taurus83 said:

I think this is an improvement.

Admittedly, the first steps were done in Pixinsight. Cropping, DBE, Deconvolution, and initial colour balance and stretching. I then switched to Photoshop and followed the excellent tutorial on the link posted above http://www.astronomersdoitinthedark.com/dslr_llrgb_tutorial.php

Thanks @Owmuchonomy

As in the tutorial a lot of work is done on a pseudo Luminance image before applying to a colour version. Theres a lot of dust and I played around with some selective masks to bring it up a bit more. It probably doesnt look right now as its maybe too bright and the colour is wrong but I'm done with this image for now. Its probably the most popular target but by golly is it difficult to process! Leaving it at that! I think Photoshop has won me over as well.

Canon 6D, IDAS D2 filter

4 hours worth of 60s subs at ISO1600

First light with my Altair 70 EDQ-R

All mounted atop a dinky AZGTi in EQ mode.

Thanks everyone for the tips and advice!

@ollypenrice that's a neat technique with anchoring the black point and lifting the faint stuff just above it. It's also used in the tutorial.

Thanks @Davey-T  😉

 

 

This is great. The image has lost its red flush so letting the dust appear as dust rather than Ha. I would be tempted to try one tiny tweak (with no guarantee that it will work.) I'd see what happened if I gave the Colour Balance slider for shadows or mid tones just a nudge away from green and towards magenta.

Olly

[laks20]

On 18/02/2020 at 09:35, steppenwolf said:

There is plenty of fine detail in your data yet to be extracted so don't lose this as you can revisit it as you hone your skills. For now, concentrate on getting the background level a little lower and balancing the colour palette a little to reduce the red dominance - yes, of course there is plenty of lovely red nebulosity in this region but you want a more neutral background. My book, already in your possession will explain how to do this.

As for video, anything by Robert Gendler or Jerry Lodriguss is a must watch!

Thanks ....will buy the books as I am struggling with this too.