Help me spend some money at FLO

[Chris]

Hi all, 

For quite some time now I've undergone quite a kit drought! Other than FLO very kindly loaning me beginner telescopes to review for YouTube. It doesn't feel right to just keep on pestering (lol)/emailing Steve to send me scopes, so I want to put together a full scope setup, OTA, mount, tripod with what money I've pieced together, and of course I want to do this via FLO.

Now I'm not new to scopes so should be able to pick what I need for myself. However, I don't seem to be able to settle on what to buy. This is partly because my budget is relatively low and I need the setup to cover a lot of bases! E.g. Observing the planets, the Moon, and DSO's as well as imaging these objects too! Solar would be a bonus. 

My budget is around £600-700. I already have in my head what I think could cover most of these bases, just that I could do with hearing from others what they think as I'm only going to have this money ring fenced once before I have to go back to throwing money at an house renovation. 

I may be able to stretch this budget a little as it's payday soon, but not by much. 

Penny for your thoughts?

 

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Lockie

[knobby]

Visual, imaging or a mix ?

edit - just re read post 😞  you want both !

A bit wacky but in the absence of any other suggestions how about an AZ- Gti / SW 127 for planets / Lunar https://www.firstlightoptics.com/sky-watcher-az-gti-wifi/sky-watcher-skymax-127-az-gti.html (£445)

and a 200 Dob for DSO https://www.firstlightoptics.com/dobsonians/skywatcher-skyliner-200p-dobsonian.html (£289) just over budget 

Then look out for a solar filter on classifieds maybe.

edit 2 - don't forget the Az-Gti can work in EQ mode for DSO imaging dabbling.

Edited December 18, 2019 by knobby
Added info

[MartinB]

As you will no doubt know Chris, even if you are spending thousands you still won't get something that works for well for everything.  Many people will, quite sensibly, advise on putting most of your money into a mount and then using this as a basis for evolving your kit, however, I get the impression you want something to serve you well right away.  If this is the case, personally, I would go for a 6" SCT on a goto altaz mount.  Celestron comes to mind!  As well as being great for solar system observing and imaging it will give respectable deep sky views and, contrary to popular belief, can be used for basic deep sky imaging.  Modern CMOS cameras can work well with sub 30 second exposures, which is what you need for alt az because of field rotation.  

[dweller25]

That’s quite a mix for a budget of £700 - you need tracking, high contrast optics and good aperture for all the things you specify.

[WanderingEye]

Yes, I think it’s a very tall order for that budget, maybe forget buying new, and look for some good used kit, you may just do it then... 👍

[david_taurus83]

I would say second hand. Skywatcher ED80 Pro for around £300 and an EQ5 Pro goto for around the same. There are a couple of ED80s for sale currently and I'm sure I've seen an EQ5 advertised as well somewhere.

[vlaiv]

Who does not want it all for £600-700?

It can be done, I think, but you need to list your priorities. Can you make a list of priorities from high to low on these (if I got that right):

- observing planetary

- observing DSO

- imaging planetary

- imaging DSO

- solar (this is probably at the bottom of the list).

Does your budget include camera? (I really hope not) and what sort of camera did you have in mind (or one that you have, or have special budget for ...).

I'll give my "initial" recommendation of setup that would cover above with close to equal priorities:

Sky-Watcher EQ5 PRO Go-To - £569

Sky-Watcher Explorer 130P-DS - £179

Grand total of ~£750

Does not include accessories that you might need but also might have - EPs, barlows, as mentioned camera, finders, etc ...

You can save quite a bit of money by going with EQ3 Goto version and purchase all accessories (except camera) that you might need, but then again - how important is imaging for you (this is option if DSO imaging is lower scoring item on the list).

[Chris]

Ooh good set of replies! I'll go through and reply to each between other duties  

Edited December 18, 2019 by Lockie

[Chris]

3 hours ago, knobby said:

Visual, imaging or a mix ?

edit - just re read post 😞  you want both !

A bit wacky but in the absence of any other suggestions how about an AZ- Gti / SW 127 for planets / Lunar https://www.firstlightoptics.com/sky-watcher-az-gti-wifi/sky-watcher-skymax-127-az-gti.html (£445)

and a 200 Dob for DSO https://www.firstlightoptics.com/dobsonians/skywatcher-skyliner-200p-dobsonian.html (£289) just over budget 

Then look out for a solar filter on classifieds maybe.

edit 2 - don't forget the Az-Gti can work in EQ mode for DSO imaging dabbling.

Well I don't mind wacky I didn't think of two setups so I'm liking the lateral thinking! Also I didn't really expect to get goto on such a tight budget, rather maybe RA driven imaging and observing, but it may be possible. Thanks.

[Chris]

3 hours ago, MartinB said:

As you will no doubt know Chris, even if you are spending thousands you still won't get something that works for well for everything.  Many people will, quite sensibly, advise on putting most of your money into a mount and then using this as a basis for evolving your kit, however, I get the impression you want something to serve you well right away.  If this is the case, personally, I would go for a 6" SCT on a goto altaz mount.  Celestron comes to mind!  As well as being great for solar system observing and imaging it will give respectable deep sky views and, contrary to popular belief, can be used for basic deep sky imaging.  Modern CMOS cameras can work well with sub 30 second exposures, which is what you need for alt az because of field rotation.  

Hi Martin, exactly! I'm going to need something that will initially cover most of these bases to some extent as I have a feeling I won't have any other free cash for a while with all the house plans. I obviously wouldn't expect a pro imaging rig for such a low budget, but something that isn't cornered into one purpose.

If the Moon is about I like to both observe and image the Moon, same with the planets. But if they are not about I like to dabble in some DSO's both observing and imaging. I wouldn't be looking at super long exposures, so don't need a high end mount. Maybe in the future when I have more money lol 

The Celestron SE range isn't a bad shout as I really liked the 5SE I once had. A bit slow natively for any short exposure DSO imaging but you can pick a 0.63 reducers for 50-60 quid. Worth considering cheers  

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Lockie

[pete_l]

Quote

I want to put together a full scope setup, OTA, mount, tripod
My budget is around £600-700.

For that money, a dob, red-dot finder, cheap planetary camera and a couple of nice-ish eyepieces

[Chris]

3 hours ago, dweller25 said:

That’s quite a mix for a budget of £700 - you need tracking, high contrast optics and good aperture for all the things you specify.

It's tricky but doable. Reflectors are cheap and have good aperture and colour correction, and RA motor drives aren't too expensive either. This is just an example of course, but I wouldn't be looking for high end goto mounts and large triplet apo's on such a budget. I'm nuts but not that nuts  

[Chris]

3 hours ago, WanderingEye said:

Yes, I think it’s a very tall order for that budget, maybe forget buying new, and look for some good used kit, you may just do it then... 👍

I've kept my eyes open on the second hand market just in case, but would like to buy from FLO both for the piece of mind and in way of thanks for what they've done for me over the years  

I don't think it's impossible to find something to cover many of these bases. I'm just a dabbler and have no expectations of APOD's and the like I don't even need goto. 

[happy-kat]

Before I read Knobby's reply I was going to say AZ-GTi and 127mm mak and ED72.

Keeps it small, portable and flexible.

Az-gti in altaz mode for visual use with either telescope.

Az-gti in alt az mode for planet imaging with 127mm telescope

Az-gti in eq mode for DSO imaging with ED72 telescope.

Can grow into guiding with az-gti and it guides using both ra and dec.

Star adventurer weight with m? Size to m? Converter. Optional field flattener. Assume you might already have a suitable camera.

Or skip ED72 and just use DSLR and what ever lenses you may already own for imaging DSO.

Edited December 18, 2019 by happy-kat

[Chris]

4 hours ago, david_taurus83 said:

I would say second hand. Skywatcher ED80 Pro for around £300 and an EQ5 Pro goto for around the same. There are a couple of ED80s for sale currently and I'm sure I've seen an EQ5 advertised as well somewhere.

The refractor lover in me wants to say yes to this. I have had some cracking high contrast views of Jupiter through an ED80, as well as taken some of my best DSO images in past. I did see the second hand ED80's you mention. If I don't decide to buy new from FLO I might revisit the ads.

I already have a WO dielectric diagonal tucked away in a drawer somewhere and a cheap RDF, plus some Plossls, webcam, Mirrorless cameras, so I would only need an OTA and mount and a T ring. I also have a ton of focus masks in a drawer up to 6" diameter. Thanks

[Chris]

4 hours ago, vlaiv said:

Who does not want it all for £600-700?

It can be done, I think, but you need to list your priorities. Can you make a list of priorities from high to low on these (if I got that right):

- observing planetary

- observing DSO

- imaging planetary

- imaging DSO

- solar (this is probably at the bottom of the list).

Does your budget include camera? (I really hope not) and what sort of camera did you have in mind (or one that you have, or have special budget for ...).

I'll give my "initial" recommendation of setup that would cover above with close to equal priorities:

Sky-Watcher EQ5 PRO Go-To - £569

Sky-Watcher Explorer 130P-DS - £179

Grand total of ~£750

Does not include accessories that you might need but also might have - EPs, barlows, as mentioned camera, finders, etc ...

You can save quite a bit of money by going with EQ3 Goto version and purchase all accessories (except camera) that you might need, but then again - how important is imaging for you (this is option if DSO imaging is lower scoring item on the list).

Hi vlaiv. Thanks for your well considered reply, very sensible. Well, being brutally honest I always end up wanting to take quick pics of things if the past is anything to go by.

E.g. If I'm looking at the Moon and planets, it's just a few minutes observing before I want to grab some AVI footage with a webcam. If the Moon and planets aren't about I like to try and find a few DSO's to observe, but again I do like to grab some images either by piggy backing a camera and lens for longer exposures at shorter focal length or go a bit deeper with some unguided 1 to 2 minutes max exposures with DLSR or mirrorless camera attached to a scope. 

I just need an OTA and mount with some kind of RA tracking. I have a modded webcam, and a couple of mirrorless cameras (all in my sig). I have some bit's and bobs such as Plossl EP's, collimation tools, focus mask, a decent diagonal, and an RDF. I would probably need a new T ring for my camera, and would probably opt for the Fuji with it's inherently weak IR filter as if should work reasonably well on nebs as a stock camera body.

Something like the EQ5 pro and 130pds would work well. I see the goto as a bonus really. Only really expecting some kind of tracking for my budget

I guess in summery imaging is more important to me, but I'm not fussy about long exposure guiding, goto, PC's being involved and all that until I get an obsy back further down the line   

 

[Chris]

1 hour ago, pete_l said:

For that money, a dob, red-dot finder, cheap planetary camera and a couple of nice-ish eyepieces

Hmm? I'm not sure a Dob will cover the DSO imaging pete? I Just need the OTA and mount. I thankfully still have EP's, cameras, RDF's etc

[Chris]

47 minutes ago, happy-kat said:

Before I read Knobby's reply I was going to say AZ-GTi and 127mm mak and ED72.

Keeps it small, portable and flexible.

Az-gti in altaz mode for visual use with either telescope.

Az-gti in alt az mode for planet imaging with 127mm telescope

Az-gti in eq mode for DSO imaging with ED72 telescope.

Can grow into guiding with az-gti and it guides using both ra and dec.

Star adventurer weight with m? Size to m? Converter. Optional field flattener. Assume you might already have a suitable camera.

Or skip ED72 and just use DSLR and what ever lenses you may already own for imaging DSO.

Hi, thanks. I'll take a look at the AZ gti as I didn't know it had an EQ mode. Do you know if it has some kind of polar scope? or would you need to drift align it each time? The only other worry regarding the mount is I believe you need to use a tablet for the goto? I'd probably want to add a hand set if it takes one? 

Small and light is a good shout, I wouldn't want something too large as It would need to fit in small shed and easily be taken out and carried a few metres each way. I did pick up a 12" dob a really cheap a little while ago, but moved it on even cheaper because I couldn't store it in the shed nor carry it more an a couple of feet without making all sorts of unpleasant pained noises lol 

Cheers 

[vlaiv]

6 minutes ago, Lockie said:

Hi vlaiv. Thanks for your well considered reply, very sensible. Well, being brutally honest I always end up wanting to take quick pics of things if the past is anything to go by.

E.g. If I'm looking at the Moon and planets, it's just a few minutes observing before I want to grab some AVI footage with a webcam. If the Moon and planets aren't about I like to try and find a few DSO's to observe, but again I do like to grab some images either by piggy backing a camera and lens for longer exposures at shorter focal length or go a bit deeper with some unguided 1 to 2 minutes max exposures with DLSR or mirrorless camera attached to a scope. 

I just need an OTA and mount with some kind of RA tracking. I have a modded webcam, and a couple of mirrorless cameras (all in my sig). I have some bit's and bobs such as Plossl EP's, collimation tools, focus mask, a decent diagonal, and an RDF. I would probably need a new T ring for my camera, and would probably opt for the Fuji with it's inherently weak IR filter as if should work reasonably well on nebs as a stock camera body.

Something like the EQ5 pro and 130pds would work well. I see the goto as a bonus really. Only really expecting some kind of tracking for my budget

I guess in summery imaging is more important to me, but I'm not fussy about long exposure guiding, goto, PC's being involved and all that until I get an obsy back further down the line   

 

I still feel that I don't fully understand what ticks the boxes for you. You say it is imaging, and I can understand that, but what level of imaging?

Maybe it would help you more if I told you "my story"?

This is something that I would not recommend you yet, but it is something that is pretty much in line with your original question. I'm awaiting (impatiently - there was postal workers strike that ended just days ago) for a shipment (just cleared customs) of setup that is supposed to do it all - and guess what? It costs about the same as your budget is.

It's Mak102 + AZGti (and a few more bits and pieces - that is why I hit your budget mark). I intend it for following purposes:

- grab&go / lunar peek scope to be used on terrace

- testing out "do it all" setup capable of: planetary imaging (with suitable CMOS camera), planetary observing, DSO imaging both in traditional role, but also with small sensors and reducers and in EEVA role - with eyepiece projection setup.

I'm mentioning this because difference between occasional snap and quite usable EEVA (and fairly decent planetary imaging) and a bit more serious imaging is - mount. AzGTI has been mentioned before in this thread and yes - it is very interesting solution but I doubt it can be used for serious AP. On the other hand I think it will do very well in EEVA role - even in AZ mode without the need for wedge / counterweights to do EQ configuration.

Maybe your need for DSO imaging can be met by EEVA approach instead of traditional AP?

 

[happy-kat]

Az-gti skywatcher have free firmware update that enables eq mode. There's a port to take syndcan handset. The free android / ios app has a plain or pro version the latter gives eq mode. Can't comment on polar alignment I don't have one but google can

DSO imaging is fairly serious given the cloudy nights thread and what people are doing.

Edited December 18, 2019 by happy-kat

[Chris]

50 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

I still feel that I don't fully understand what ticks the boxes for you. You say it is imaging, and I can understand that, but what level of imaging?

Maybe it would help you more if I told you "my story"?

This is something that I would not recommend you yet, but it is something that is pretty much in line with your original question. I'm awaiting (impatiently - there was postal workers strike that ended just days ago) for a shipment (just cleared customs) of setup that is supposed to do it all - and guess what? It costs about the same as your budget is.

It's Mak102 + AZGti (and a few more bits and pieces - that is why I hit your budget mark). I intend it for following purposes:

- grab&go / lunar peek scope to be used on terrace

- testing out "do it all" setup capable of: planetary imaging (with suitable CMOS camera), planetary observing, DSO imaging both in traditional role, but also with small sensors and reducers and in EEVA role - with eyepiece projection setup.

I'm mentioning this because difference between occasional snap and quite usable EEVA (and fairly decent planetary imaging) and a bit more serious imaging is - mount. AzGTI has been mentioned before in this thread and yes - it is very interesting solution but I doubt it can be used for serious AP. On the other hand I think it will do very well in EEVA role - even in AZ mode without the need for wedge / counterweights to do EQ configuration.

Maybe your need for DSO imaging can be met by EEVA approach instead of traditional AP?

 

Ok, thanks vlaiv, I'll try and explain a bit more precisely. With regards to DSO imaging I would be looking to use my mirroless cameras either piggy backed on a scope with lenses for wide field, or attached to the scope for multiple 60 second to 120 second exposures stacked in DSS to get a bit more image scale. I would prefer to use the cameras in camera noise reduction at this stage (which takes a dark frame every shot) rather than bother with a dark library. And I would be looking to stack maybe an hour of two total exposures to give a reasonable amount of signal to noise so you can see the DSO reasonably clearly. At this stage I would probably just crop out the vignetting and coma rather than take flat's and buy a coma corrector or flattener. This is similar to the style of imaging I did years ago in the first year or two of starting out, and I was happy at the time.

All I have at the moment is a flimsy tripod for DSO imaging so any improvement would be a bonus (I'll post a pick I took the other night. you may see why I want something a little better lol) I feel this level of imaging falls somewhere in between proper guided AP and EEVA. I wouldn't be looking at anything more serious until further down the line when I've built another observatory, but that's a way off as it turns out. Maybe late 2020 for the obsy if I'm a very lucky boy.  

I'll post some of my old DSO images so you can see what I achieved with a basic clock driven mount unguided years ago. I'm maybe looking to achieve close to these.

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Lockie

[Chris]

29 minutes ago, happy-kat said:

Az-gti skywatcher have free firmware update that enables eq mode. There's a port to take syndcan handset. The free android / ios app has a plain or pro version the latter gives eq mode. Can't comment on polar alignment I don't have one but google can

DSO imaging is fairly serious given the cloudy nights thread and what people are doing.

Thanks, I'll head over and do some research on the AZ GTI now

[Chris]

So basically, with regards to DSO's I'm looking for an improvement in this fixed tripod shot of m31 the other night. 

[pete_l]

35 minutes ago, Lockie said:

So basically, with regards to DSO's I'm looking for an improvement in this fixed tripod shot of m31 the other night.

The easiest "improvements" are to reduce the exposure time such that stars don't trail. Once their light starts to spread across multiple pixels you get no further benefit. And with shorter exposures, take more of them. After that it's down to processing.

There is a reason that the Ford Transit¹ of imaging is an HEQ5 + ED80 and DSLR. It is not fancy and produces results. It is also about at the bottom end, price-wise for entry into deep sky imaging.

[1] a van that just about every van driver has used at some point.

[Skyline]

You've had it before, why not have it again:

sw130pds with something like a eq5/heq5 pro mount. good for handling, visual and imaging also does not break the bank account. If you want I can print a focus mask out for you - foc.

Nadeem.