A Response from Neil Bone - Astronomy Now.

[Psychobilly]

Welcome to SGL Neil,

Wishing you all the best with your fight and please stick around and if you can find some time contribute to the discussions that take place on the forum.

Billy...

[mik]

Hello Neil and welcome to the forum and thanks for the reply to the thread in question.

Also thanks to MartinB for a well thought out reply to this issue.

As Martin points out imagers don't turn there nose up at observers and sketchers work and i should know as i was awarded IOTW for a sketch of the Moon, i am glad this has been resolved and in my view the various publications on offer today and this forum cater for all to a high fair level.

I hope you stay around because i feel you will enjoy your stay as i have over the last year so i will shut up now and end this with get well and look after yourself Neil and also well done MartinB

Good night Mick.

[Andrew*]

I know a lot of my sentiments have already been said, but I took too long to write this so I will post it anyway

Hi Neil and thanks for joining SGL to join in the discussion. It's a pleasure to have you here. I hope with time you will see that we are really a very friendly bunch!

First things first: I'm very sorry to hear of your illness and I wish you the very best and a speedy recovery.

Following the original debate, I emerged from my Sky at Night hidey hole and bought Astronomy Now, specifically to be able to read the whole article. For this I must congratulate you - your article has led to at least one additional sale and you have therefore done your job very well!

Having read article in question, a lot more was revealed to me than the original thread did. You justify your points, and when the quotes are lifted out of context, things are made less clear and people will react differently to them. I think it is wrong to take phrases out of context, and equally so to react in a heated manner if you have not read the article itself. That is why I have kept quiet until I had read it.

However, I don't think MartinB was in the wrong. I think the reason you were said to be "mistaken" or "behind the scene" was because of the phrase "imagers turn up their nose at the thought of using the Mk 1 eyeball". I don't believe this is true and I think the balance, and relationship, between imagers and observers is quite friendly and tolerant. I think this single phrase rang alarm bells for many people - particularly those imagers who have observing set-ups alongside, which I think I am right in saying is a great percentage of them, and it includes myself.

A final point: M42 is a beautiful and fascinating object. It was the first DSO I ever captured, and I chose it for obvious reasons: bright, large, easy, beautiful... I don't regret it one bit as I take great pride in it and it gave me one of my most fantastic astronomical experiences when I saw the first 30 second shot appear on the screen. I intend to come back to it in order to improve on my first attempts and also to practice my processing skills. I don't have any complaints about seeing so many M42's because it would be hypocritical.

Thanks again and I hope you dally a bit to browse our forum.

Andrew

[narrowbandpaul]

neil

I had absolutely no idea you were under going chemo therapy. I was totally unaware as to who you were, apart from an author on AN magazine.

Yes, i did diasgree with the comments you made, but i realise that I was being way too harsh. i open my mouth and dont think...as many members here will agree with.

So hopefully then, we WILL see you at astrofest, front and centre.

Apologies for being to abrupt

Good luck and hope you make a speedy recovery

Paul

[kniclander]

Neil, good luck with your recovery. I didn't have a problem with your article at all; now I kind of wish I'd said so sooner. I guess there were a lot of people like me out there but the ones who posted were the ones who did feel strongly so I guess you got a bit of a skewed representation. Glad to see that you stood up to defend yourself and gladder still to see that some of the posters of ott comments have been big enough to apologise.

Dan

[MartinB]

I didn't have a problem with your article at all; now I kind of wish I'd said so sooner. I guess there were a lot of people like me out there but the ones who posted were the ones who did feel strongly so I guess you got a bit of a skewed representation. Glad to see that you stood up to defend yourself and gladder still to see that some of the posters of ott comments have been big enough to apologise.

Dan, there were a few posts in that thread that were of a personal nature. The mods took some steps to control that. The majority of posts in the thread were not in the least personal.

Neil's column did raise issues. "When we get to the realms of this season's 8,000th identical image of the Orion Nebula however, is anyone really breaking new observational ground?" This might have been a rhetorical question but as a moderator on the imaging section it wasn't rhetorical to me! The obvious answer to the question is probably not. The return question is - does it need to be?

Also Neil comments "Many in the imaging fraternity will turn their noses up at the idea of using the Mark 1 eyeball, pencil and paper to record observations." As an imager I still don't think this comment should go unchallenged.

He says "forum groups give the impression that visual astronomy is becoming a thing of the past". Feeling passionately as I do about the role SGL has to play in developing amateur astronomy I was really sad to read that.

Neil, if you were writing the column again would you word it any differently?

[kniclander]

er (MartinB) - all I said was that I didnt have a problem (ie the thread did not raise "issues" for me) - not that no-one should have a problem - saying what should/ shouldnt offend other people is a minefield that I'm not going to get into.

Dan

[Rosanella]

Knock, knock! May I come in?

I'm not an imager, in fact, I don't have a telescope as I haven't yet figured out how to get a telescope, stand, the camera and a laptop outside, having to get around on sticks or wheelchair, so I observe through binoculars and robotic telescopes, for now. And yes, I sketch.

When I read Neil Bone's The joy of sketching, Ten visual treats on pages 60-61 of Astronomy Now, by Martin Mobberley and How to draw the Universe by Jeremy Perez, I thought 'That's brilliant! I'm not alone doing this' , feeling a lot more included within the arena of amateur astronomers.

Was Neil Bone's comment about imagers offensive? I didn't see it that way, but I'm not an imager. Would I be bothered anyway? Gosh, I hope not. If I want to look at M42 every single breathing moment of my life, then be it.

Would I be pointing my telescope at Orion Nebula Messier 42, or the Seven Sisters M45 (another beauty) the day I'll figure out the logistics? You bet, I can't wait!!! But for the time being, I have to console myself to look at them through the eyes of others, through their beautiful images I see on magazines and the internet.

Would I be offended if someone said to me that we've seen M42 often enough? Nah! Life it's too short. It does make me stop and think, though, that the universe is a big place, very big, and what if I find something that has not been seen before and take a picture of that too? What a treat that would be , wishfull thinking I know, but the sky is, after all, the limit.

Best wishes to Neil Bone for a speedy recovery

I will be going to Astrophest 2009, so I'll stop by the ANow stand to say hello, and I hope to meet other Stargazersloungers too. I think we should all meet up and have tea, coffee, whatever is allowed to be drunk there

[MartinB]

Rosanella, I don't think anyone was "offended" by Neil's comments. If people were offended they should perhaps move on and set up a seperate forum for the easily offended. Members would scour the newspapers for things to get upset over and beat their breasts at the continual slights they have to endure in life.

[Reggie]

I was originally offended but Neil was correct in some points, I would turn my nose up at using pencil and paper to record observations, the reason for that being I can't draw to save my life, not because sketching is beneath me.

Visual observation may well start to become a thing of the past, if the current light pollution and the laws/policies dealing with it don't change sometime soon.

Although, rather typically and cynically, councils are only acting on excessive streetlighting because they think they can save a few shillings. I think that is the main reason forums sound like visual imaging is becoming a thing of the past, not because we want it that way, simply because that is what is happening, personally I wish it wasn't that way as I would really enjoy more visual observing.

As for the 8000th M42 of the season, I don't have a problem with, that means there are 8000 imagers, all getting their skill levels up, I'm doing the same, when I have sufficient skill level in capturing what I expect to see I expect to settle into something a little more scientific.

Personally I was lured into astronomy by the philips toucam mods and having to stand outside at home if I wanted a smoke, it gave me a lot of time under the stars. I was bored one day earlier this year and came across the webcam mods, this intrigued me as did seeing the images that these devices were producing with modest telescope setups.

This inspired me to get a telescope and a webcam, it also encouraged me to start to learn electronics a few months ago, which in turn has led me to do my own long exposure mod, make a PWM electronic focuser, a dual channel dew heater and in turn save a fortune on kit.

Should I be encouraged? I think so, I'd like to hope that my efforts in some small way will encourage others to pick up a telescope

Should visual observation be discouraged? I think not, I'd just like to have the skies that would give me the same visual pleasure as imaging does from my current location

Should I move on to make a forum for the easily offended? Only if the mods don't want reasonable discussion over all subjects.

[steppenwolf]

Time to come clean methinks. I am a subscriber to AN amongst other magazines and when this issue hit my doormat, I hid it away as I was off to the New Forest for a week's holiday and thought it would make great reading for any rainy days.

When I did start reading it, at first I felt what I can only assume many visual and sketching astronomers must think most 'normal' months - nothing in here for me! I can't sketch (I have tried but not astronomically), I tired fairly early on with viewing as after the original burst of excitement over finding my first DSOs with a 25mm Plossl, 10" Reflector and a manual mount I felt that something was missing from my own personal experience.

My first astro image told me what that missing 'something' was and I am now exclusively an imager with the exception of the Moon and planets which I rarely image but find breathtaking to view.

Over the week away, I did dip into the articles on sketching and visual astronomy and marvelled at the sketches and dedication that many of them must have taken, just as I marvel at the work of people like Talitha, Mik and Nightjar to name just three that instantly jump to mind (if I haven't mentioned you by name be assured, it doesn't mean I don't appreciate your work!) and that is just on SGL!

I didn't read Neil's article 'The Joy of Sketching' at that time as it did not seem very relevant to me, I only read it after the first thread here but having then read it, I did feel that the wording was 'unfortunate' and in particular, I took exception to the reference to the '8000th identical image of the Orion Nebula' as I felt that this was a real dig at the hard work we imagers put in to producing something a little different each time we image this object. I keep on going back to M42 each season for a very simple reason - there are so many different interpretations of the object and each image I take is different from the last even though it is the same object! For example my latest M42 was concentrating on the outer dust clouds whereas the one before it was very much aimed at catching the Trapezium area and balancing that with the outer filamentary regions - both challenging tasks that result in very different final images. I have other projects to do with M42 in the pipeline as well, as I say, so many different interpretations of this one object.

As for the rest of the article, this is simply one man's opinion to which he is very entitled but I do hope that the original AN article, the subsequent threads here and my honest contribution to them does not open a 'visual versus imaging' debate as this would (as I hope I have indicated above by my appreciation of both methods of recording) be inappropriate as both surely have their place both here and in the wider astronomy community.

[robindurant]

I have never read such a long thread about such an insignificant subject. If our belief in imaging is strong we should be able to immediately dismiss any criticism of it without reply. I know the weather is carp but there must be better subjects to post than this marathon. A ruddy great storm in a very small teacup.

Robin

[CELESCOPE]

I have,nt made any comments on this article at,all , to be honest i have more things to think about than whats commented on in articles .

maybe i,m just layed back about things ,i dont know , i just do what i like.

Rog

[trudie]

Well said Robin.

Trudie

[timetraveller]

Firstly may I wish Neil a speedy and successful recovery from his illness and hope he continues to enjoy improving health

secondly with reference to all this fuss I wish to point out a simple fact that i think covers this whole topic. That fact is simply this. As new and improving technology becomes available people will use it regardless of the old ways of doing things

We now have calculators, computers, Digital camera's email and many more new tools to make our lives easier.

And at the end of the day people will simply use that which is easiest for them to give them the end results they are after.

But that does not mean the older ways and technology is any less relevant and as long as there are stars in the sky people will continue to gaze skywards in awe and wonderment with whatever available means they have to give them the best views. you cannot disinvent technology nor can you stop people from using it.

I like visual observation equally as much as photographic both give me the option to explore the universe just in slightly different ways they are complimentary not adversarial techniques

regards Pete

[centroid]

Hi Neil

Firstly welcome to SGL, and thank you for taking the time to respond.

Ok, having now (yesterday) returned from 'down-under', I have today read your article, and the 'picture' that I 'built' from reading the comments in the relevant 'thread' whilst in Oz, has now proven to be accurate.

I therefore stand by the comments that I made in reponse to that 'thread'.

As I previously stated, I pursue amateur astronomy purely as a hobby, and have no desire to "break new observational ground". CCD imaging is my prime interest and enjoyment within this hobby.

I am not at all offended by your comments/opinion, but thought them mis-placed and unwarranted. Hence the theme of my response.

Please be assurred, that my comments were not aimed at Neil Bone, the person, but at the author of, IMO, contentious comments in a magazine article.

I am not hidden behind an impenetrable forum user name, and many members of this forum know who I am, and where I live. This information is readily available to anyone with a genuine reason for needing it.

Anyway, its all very much 'water under the bridge' now, and with the exception this particular one , I will continue to read and enjoy your articles. It would also be my pleasure to meet you in person.

Finally, there are very few families, if any, who haven't been affected in some way by Cancer, so we can all sympathise with anyone who suffers at the 'hands' of this damn disease.

You have my heartfelt sympathy, and every good wish for a successful outcome to your treatment.

Kind regards

Dave

[part timer]

Neil,

As some one who did post in the original thread and who certainly has read the 'offending' article I feel i should also post here.

I am not an 'imager' I'm just some one who owns a telescope and likes to use it. I do sketch each object but purely as an aid to observation (It really does help to see more!).

Astronomy is a wonderful means of relaxing and forgetting the other pressures of life for me. I think many others use the hobby for this. It is a great way to consider your real place in the universe and put many problems in perspective. I did study astrophysics at university but that doesn't mean I want to pursue scientific research in my spare time.

Your worry over imaging are in my experience unfounded, there are many visual observers here on SGL and a lot of posts related to non imaging topics. Yes imagers post more but that's mostly because they have an 'end product' to share with each other and the internet allows them to swap processing knowledge and skills more easily.

Your article would be a good conversation point at a star party or at astrofest and would raise a good hearted conversation.The only real trouble was in the location i.e. in an magazine which people buy essentially to make themselves feel good. People want to read about your amusing mistakes (Bone 1 ) and any suggestions you may have for observations or astronomical activities . Lets be honest, they also want to hear nice things about themselves. Many took the article as a suggestion that really should be doing something more serious with their time and they really should contribute to science.

You may not have meant this but there it is. At the end of the day they are customers and the magazine is not really a place for uninhibited expression. (the place for that is Here )

I hope you are not offended by any thing I have posted , because I for one don't mean to offend and have been reading your sky guides etcetera in AN for many years (much longer than I've had internet access) and have always found them usefully and enjoyable. I have always viewed your preference for and satisfaction with simple Kit as some thing to aspire to.

I hope you keep writing and I really do wish that your recovery is rapid and very long lasting!

If you do get miffed by anything written on here try to remember that to readers your just a name and very small picture, not really a person and certainly not the actual Neil Bone.

Luke

[thing]

He's not Neil Bone? Does he know?

[part timer]

He's not Neil Bone? Does he know?

:laughing3:

Well perhaps I could have put that better but I think you get the the general meaning.