A Response from Neil Bone - Astronomy Now.

[Doc]

I think this thread, together with the other LONG thread should be put to bed.

If Neil Bone wants to comment. Simply let him register as a member, complete with all the welcomes then he is free to post. He could also contribute to the observing boards.

As things stand this lacks productivity.

I can't believe I am posting this!!!

John

Ditto

In fact I was just about to post a very similar reply.

[steppenwolf]

yup very easy

Tee hee .........

[Psychobilly]

if even the potential of a "reply" is causing this much interest whats it going to be like when (or if) we actually get one...

Guilty of adding to the growing thread myself now

Billy...

[MartinB]

I wonder if he would be interested in helping be a moderator on our observing board!

Looking forward to welcoming him to SGL

[neil bone]

Firstly, apologies for taking so long to respond. I had problems getting registered, and have been rather ill in recent weeks. Not many people know this – I’ve kept it quiet as I seek neither sympathy nor martyrdom - but I was diagnosed with bowel cancer just under two years ago and have been through quite a long medical struggle, while trying to maintain as normal a life a s possible. However, the chemotherapy has really taken its toll in recent weeks, leaving me short of my usual energy, and a lot of things have had to be put aside for a bit in the interest of getting some rest. Things are a bit better now, and I would indeed very much like to have my opportunity to reply to the various comments on SGL engendered by the ‘Observations’ piece in November’s Astronomy Now. My response comes in three parts, the last of which includes an offer.

1. The article itself. Let’s be clear from the outset – I never set out, in my writing, to offend anyone. Indeed, a lot of the offence which has arisen seems to have its source with the people contributing to the thread, and their misinterpretation of what was said – from the tone and content of the comments, it’s clear that one or two may not even have read the piece, or read it in its entirety.

At no point do I suggest that observers should abandon imaging – recreational or otherwise – in favour of more traditional methods. I was careful to state at the end of the opening paragraph, with respect to imaging objects like M42 that: ‘if it’s what floats your boat, fine – after all we pursue our astronomical interests primarily for enjoyment, and obtaining our own version of the view is undoubtedly eminently satisfying’. But does it have to be M42 every time? I was trying to make the point that there are other interesting, and novice-friendly targets worth a go! I’m as guilty as the next person of having a stare at the Orion Nebula at the end of an evening’s observing – eye-candy after a tricky session where it’s been hard to track something else down, perhaps, and it sends you to bed with a smile on your face. Yes, it’s a good proving-ground, but what’s wrong with stretching out a bit. Not far from M42 are a few things that DO merit regular re-imaging during the season – think Hubble’s and Hind’s variable nebulae, or McNeil’s Nebula near M78 (it faded away again last year –what’s it up to now?). If M42 is all you want to do, then fine – I’m not stopping you, and please don’t misconstrue my words as saying otherwise.

A lot of comment focuses on the mention of the names of Damian Peach, Nik Szymanek and Greg Parker. I don’t understand the bitterness that’s coming out from so many people over this! Of course I’m not suggesting that only the very experienced should be doing imaging – I didn’t say anything close to that effect. It’s part of the beauty of this hobby that people can aspire to emulating, and eventually surpassing, the work of those who came before Maybe a few were miffed not to be mentioned themselves? Sorry, I’ve only got 500 words for the column! Let me clarify why those three names came to mind. First, I worked on a piece by Damian on planetary imaging for the magazine back in 2000, during the editorial transition before Stuart Clark was appointed. I was impressed by Damian’s thorough approach to matters such as collimation and seeing, and I’m sure that many imagers who have followed on since have benefited from this work – so why not acknowledge it? Nik provided a lot of images used in the Astronomy Now Guide to the Constellations back in late 2001 – again there weren’t at that time too many other people producing publication-quality images. Ditto Greg Parker’s images feature in the Deep Sky Observer’s Guide (2004). Much has happened since, of course, and the numbers of imagers have burgeoned. I raise my hat to those who are getting stuck in about it and producing ever-better quality images and the mention of three people who were in there at the start doesn’t mean that I think everyone else should give up – again, I have to ask, exactly where in the article do I suggest so?

As one correspondent correctly commented, articles like these are me sticking my head above the parapet, and we do look to stimulate debate. There’s usually some sort of talking point embedded in there – eg, last February or thereabouts I hoped to get some discussion on how far one can push an eyepiece with a given aperture (no takers!). There was a ripple of stuff about first books – on SGL, but sadly not accompanied by Letters to the Editor as we’d like to hope. The December version is a lot less ‘controversial’, and I hope that when you come to it, some of you might feel inclined to respond with your won suggestions….

Probably enough there to ponder as things stand. Please go back and read/re-read the article in its entirety and maybe things will now be clearer. As I say, a lot of offence has arisen from personal (mis)interpretations rather than anything I actually said!

2. The personal stuff. I realise a lot of this is typical Internet bravado – easy to be rude about someone from behind the safety of an impenetrable user name, and the safety of a keyboard in bedroom. There are a few things in there which would never come out face to face. As a writer, one has to learn to take criticism on the chin, along with accepting the plaudits. Some of the comments I read were childish in the extreme (what was the author of the bit about terrestrials taking images of me all about?). A couple, however, I feel I can’t let pass without comment.

Given my medical circumstances, I was more than a little taken aback by the suggestion that I’ll be cowering in a corner at Astrofest. From what? In the past two years, I have undergone a course of combined radio-chemotherapy, am currently on a course of pretty brutal chemotherapy. I have undergone five major operations (try Googling Abdominal Perineal Excision – the Addenbrooke’s Hospital site gives a particularly graphic description of the procedure – it ain’t for the squeamish…). I don’t think anyone suffering from a lack of courage would have gone through some of what I’ve had to, so please do not accuse me of a lack of moral fibre. That’s just plain, cheaply, insulting.

The other set of comments that disturbs me regards my being 12-18 months behind the scene. What ‘scene’ would that be? I’m very much involved in the mainstream of UK amateur astronomy – I still regularly give talks around societies the length and breadth of the UK (Southampton on Thursday this week), and do a lot of work for the BAA, including not just being ‘in’, but actually running the Meteor Section. I keep up with the literature, including The Astronomer, BAA Journal, Sky and Telescope and so on. Several local societies send me their newsletters, and of course on my visits I get to hear about what they’re doing. Perhaps the author of these non-specific, but damaging, comments would care to enlighten as to which article(s) revealed my lack of current awareness, and in what respect they show me to be out of touch!

3. Enough of that, let’s get to the offer. Many correspondents seem proud of the fact they’ve never met me (and some never want to - have I suddenly acquired the status of genocidal maniac or something?). Well, I’m quite happy to meet people and discuss this and other matters face to face. Health permitting (I feel a lot better than I have for a while, and it looks like the treatment might finally be delivering on the promised restoration of a bit of quality to my life!), I shall be at Astrofest, on the AN stand. I will have a name-badge, and should therefore be readily-identifiable should you wish to talk. Maybe the civilised way would be to get together and go upstairs for a beer/coffee and discuss things?

I know a number of you make the pilgrimage to Selsey every few weeks. I live not far away – about 7 km across the fields to the north as the tornado flies. If you’re really keen, I leave it to you to find my phone number/address – they’re already widely enough in the public domain via the BAA, for example, that I don’t feel the need to further spread them – contact me, and assuming I’m not under the chemical cosh, maybe we can arrange to meet in a relatively small group in a local pub for a chat (I know several good sources of decent real ale in Chichester). The offer’s there, anyway.

And yes, in time, I’d be happy to contribute what I can to the observing threads particularly in my ‘specialised’ areas of meteors, aurorae (remember them!) and noctilucent clouds.

For the moment, let’s leave it there – this is already a hugely lengthy message! Be assured that my intentions towards the UK amateur astronomy community are entirely benign, and that I feel there should be room for everyone from serious observers using either visual or electronic recording methods, to the casual skywatcher.

Neil Bone

[steppenwolf]

Thanks for your response, Neil - I had to highlight it to read it because it is black an a dark background on my monitor but it was worth the reading.

I hope that any replies that you get will be mature in content!

Good luck with the therapy.

[beamer3.6m]

Is it me or is the text black - I am having trouble reading it.

[Jamie]

Thanks for the reply Neil.

I changed the colour of the text to a more aesthetically pleasing version.

Sorry Neil but the colour change has altered the font size and type too.

[beamer3.6m]

I had not read the article until Friday evening and I have to agree with Neil.

It was very miss-interpreted by many.

[scotastro]

I for one am very grateful for you to take the time to give a reply and very level it was too especially with some of the harsher comments directed at you.

I have been amazed by the posts arising from your article since you are far from alone in your opinion. Maybe people don't read enough to discover this or as you say it is too easy to post an instant opinion on sites such as this.

Other examples before you are a Focal Point article (last page of Sky & Telescope) last year - the author wrote about why he did not do imaging as it had all been done before and better by Hubble or professionals - this had outraged some of the members in his club.

Also David Levy (extremely well know for imaging comets) in a recent "Let's Talk Stars" (look on the internet) with John Dobson was decrying the decline of visual observing taking place in the USA.

I hope the imagers on SGL take up your challenge of looking for other objects - personally I'll stick with pushing the limits of my Mk1 eyeball.

I wish you a full and speedy recovery

Mike

[Doc]

Thankyou Neil for taking the time to write this lengthy response.

One of my relatives had bowel cancer so I have second hand knowledge of what you are going through and wish you

a speedy recovery.

I have read your article a few times and think alot of your comments have been mis interpretated.

Of course there are going to be alot more photo's of the likes of the M42, M13, M27 to name a few. As you well know these are relatively easy to locate and photograph compared to the more obscure ones that one has to go and track down.

But all photographers are at different levels, some have equipment thats worth thousands others a few hundred, some are really experienced and some just beginners. We all deserve the same praise no matter what subject we choose to photograph.

I'm only interested in the visual side of astronomy for the moment but really ebjoy looking and learning at all the photo's taken.

Others are interested in Lunar/Solar astronomy, there are just so many off shoots of this hobby and I know that this is what you meant in your article when you said "Be assured that my intentions towards the UK amateur astronomy community are entirely benign, and that I feel there should be room for everyone from serious observers using either visual or electronic recording methods, to the casual skywatcher"

If I lived near I would love to have a chat but alas I live to far.

Once again thankyou for responding and wish you a speedy recovery.

[Kaptain Klevtsov]

Welcome to SGL Neil, good to have you aboard.

I hope that you can hang around and take a look at all the various information that can be found here, it really isn't a vipers nest, but a place for Mrs Merton style "heated debate". What seems to happen here is, if somebody posts something that is perceived as being a little, shall we say contentious, the Mods. jump on it and make sure it doesn't get out of hand. When the subject of discussion is external to the forum, stuff gets rapidly one-sided as only one side is represented. This is a shame, but only to be expected, so I hope that you can appreciate that nobody was having a personal go at you, just at the opinion.

We are in general, a very open minded lot and the visual guys don't burn us imagers at the stake, even if we do tend to aim at the usual suspects rather a lot.

Please do stay, its nice here.

Kaptain Klevtsov

[thing]

I'll echo what KK just said. I'm a mod on another forum which has the occasional 'heated debate', but it's noticeable that the people who have met in real life never have heated debates with each other again, because they know the nuances and personality of the person they are talking to. The internet can be a harsh place, purely because it has no personal exchange, just lines of text. Wishing you a speedy recovery.

[barkis]

I'm sure most of the membership would be delighted to have you as a member of SGL Neil. I guess your workload is heavy enough as it is though. I wish I didn't live so far North, as I would take up your offer of a natter over some flagons of Real Ale.

I sincerely wish you a steady return to full health and fitness.

Ron. :salute:

[Kaptain Klevtsov]

How dumb am I? Forgot the important bit of the post - get well soon and stay that way Neil.

Kaptain Klevtsov

[Black Shuck]

I'm sure most of the membership would be delighted to have you as a member of SGL Neil.

Totally agree Ron.

Thank you Neil for your post, I read it with great interest. I think you will find most contributors on SGL to be people who enjoy a good balanced debate.

As someone who worked in Clinical Oncology for 18 years I know what you are going through. You courage is admirable and I wish you all the very best.

Bill£

[Ben Ritchie]

(I know several good sources of decent real ale in Chichester)

Crickey, not sure I do - as someone else a couple of miles down the road - but i'll buy you a beer in one anytime.

[661-pete]

Thanks from me too for your very thought-provoking response Neil. Hope this is an end to any unpleasant posturing.

I wish you all the best in your battle with your illness, and like the others hope for a favourable outcome.

I've kept away from this thread and its precursor. I don't shy away from a bit of 'robust debate' but I back out from what descends into the 'internet bravado' as you put it! I've had enough of that on other forums (not astronomy ones).

I chose the imaging route for my own reasons which are personal (with my eyesight I find eyepieces difficult!). Never imagined it would be mired in controversy! In my own very modest way, I enjoy it (when I get the opportunity to get back to the 'scope, which is seldom).

[kev 102 42]

i find taking the pee out of this evil disease helps cheer up a otherwise misreble day goog luck neil i hope your chemo works has mine dident................kev

[kev 102 42]

ok i apoligise to everyone :thumbright: sorry gang

[Astro_Baby]

Neil,

I wasnt wound up in the controversy over your article, in fact I missed it altogether. As an observer and a relative new one at that I cant comment on what was said or the validity of your piece but I do know a little of the struggle you are going through and I would like to wish you the very best in what I can well imagine is a very trying time.

Look after yourself and get plenty of rest - controversy on boards is nothing new and its most often forgotten quickly ( usually just as soon as the next inflammatory post comes up ) and given the demands on you I am suprised you bothered to post - the fact that you did I think speaks volumes about your character.

Take care of yourself,

Mel

[661-pete]

I hope the imagers on SGL take up your challenge of looking for other objects

I've tried to do just that! A lot of the things I've tried my hand at lately, are surely way down below the 'top twenty' of many imagers' TO DO lists! I fancy obscure globs in particular - got a fair number under my belt now, besides the favourites. I wish I could add Omega (NGC 5139) to my 'bag', but from my site in France it remains obstinately 1° below the horizon...

[Reggie]

Thanks for taking the time to write a response Neil,like most(everyone?) people I'd already come to the conclusion that you weren't really an ogre intent on stamping out casual imagers. Good luck with the chemo.

[gary1968]

Welsome to SGL Neil...... I didn't bother getting in to this thread when it started as having read the article I didn't find it offending in any way shape or form. I buy AN every month and read it cover to cover and find all the articles in there very interesting and usually educational.

I'm glad that you took the time to put your point across and hope that it is an end to the debate that was started.

Anyway, glad you are here now and I wish you a successful speedy recovery.

Gary

[MartinB]

Thank you very much for your response Neil, it is much appreciated. Also, terrible news about your illness, I am full of admiration for your committment to our hobby.

First of all, a warm welcome to SGL,

I started the thread and don't believe I made any comments which were of a personal nature, if I did I apologize. There was a sentiment expressed in your column which I was/am very much at odds with. I felt your wish to remind people that that observing is still an enjoyable and challenging activity was very valid. Also I sense that you have a concern that with the headlong rush into imaging the finer arts and skills of observing are being passed by. A superficial look at forum posts may give this impression but a deeper understanding of what is happening with forums such as SGL provided some reassurance, I believe.

First of all, I would challenge you to find any post in which an imager has "turned his nose up" at observing or sketching. You will find plenty of posts admiring the patience and skills of sketchers. Most of the imagers on SGL can understand the appeal of observing and are certainly interested in astronomy as a science. However there is also an aesthetic appreciation of the cosmos which extends beyond science i.e we want to take pretty pictures and enjoy the technical challenge - M42 is very pretty and to image it well you need to have a good understanding of what is actually happening in that region.

The combined forces of the internet, in particular the better forums, and digital imaging is attracting many people into the hobby. The proportion of people imaging compared with observing or conducting scientific investigation has undoubtedly changed however, I am absolutely certain that ultimately there will be more people doing non imaging astro as a result.

A quick look through the the boards will show there is quite a growing interest in observing and purchasing scopes such as dobsonians particularly with this in mind.

My hope is that more experienced people within the field, such as yourself, will embrace the forums, as an obvious force for good and become more involved by sharing expertise and encouraging us to widen our horizons. So far this isn't happening to the extent that it perhaps should. We need help, and maybe some of us become rather prickly if we perceive an aspect of what we enjoy being denigrated. Wouldn't it be great if, one day, we had boards for variable star observing, super nova hunting, photometry and the like. Maybe we could harness the combined enthusiasm of members of SGL to gather useful scientific data. To achieve that we need the people with talent, experience and knowledge working from the inside.

BTW I live in Chesterfield, address and phone number available on request, if you are ever interested in a pint of "real" real ale