All I Want To See Are Planets

[ansonmaddox]

Hello, all!

I have owned the Orion XT12g (12" go-to Dob) for 2 years now because I enjoy looking at DSOs.  But all my wife wants to see are planets, planets, planets!  Her emphasis is on the kids' education.  She wants to "wow" them to pique their interest in science.  Her instructions to me were: "I want to see Jupiter as big as possible with the greatest amount of detail for under $1,500."

Although I have been observing for a few years now, my knowledge is limited to my one and only scope (12" go-to Dob).  From cruising these forums for the last few days, I'm guessing I need a refractor for planets?

I would prefer to get one with a 2" barrel, since I already own those eyepieces. But I also have some 1.25" eyepieces, so that's not a deal breaker.  Other considerations are the fact that she loves the way the go-to follows objects.  Having the scope stay on an object while managing kids is pretty important, but I don't guess that is a deal breaker either.  Again, emphasis is "as big and detailed as possible" (she made me recite that a few times out loud).

So I found the Celestron Advanced VX 6 refractor: https://www.telescope.com/All-Telescopes/Telescopes/Refractor-Telescopes/Refractor-Telescopes-with-Premium-Optics/Celestron-Advanced-VX-6-Refractor-Telescope/rc/2162/pc/2130/c/2139/sc/1981/p/103024.uts

But then I had a moment of clarity and decided to pop in here and get some real advice since I'm still a beginner myself.  Is a refractor really what I need?  Is that Celestron a good scope?  I think the planets look great through my 12" Dob, but that's not really an option because she can't take it out by herself (too big/heavy).  An internet friend who is an amateur also told me to get a CST instead, so now I am all confused.

Planets; moderate light pollution; no interest in photography; no interest in DSOs; "as big and as detailed as possible".  Please help, and thank you in advance.

[Charic]

If your wife wants to educate the children, install Stellarium before you go any further?
http://stellarium.org

It would be of my opinion that anything less than 8" for a reflector would give me less than what I have now, on that basis, how will smaller scopes fare compared to your 12" Go-To?

Stellarium is totally free and a positively something you should have on your PC / Laptop. There are similar programs out there, but Stellarium comes highly recommended.

.........."as big and detailed as possible".............Stellarium gives you detailed information to the night skies, and you can set up the view to match your home location, so what you see on Stellarium will be outside, if its not cloudy?

You can set the views to replicate size and distance, even zoom in to see more detail, but trust me, you wont get any closer to the planets with your scopes!

[Ruud]

I'd recommend a Maksutov, especially the Rumak variant, if you are mainly interested in planets. Lighter, compact, no colour error, not as expensive. A 5 or 6 inch would be just fine.

A Maksutov has a small secondary mirror which obstructs little light and has little impact on image contrast. The Rumak design allows for better control of aberrations and has a flatter focal plane than the original Maksutov.

 

[Stu]

25 minutes ago, ansonmaddox said:

Hello, all!

I have owned the Orion XT12g (12" go-to Dob) for 2 years now because I enjoy looking at DSOs.  But all my wife wants to see are planets, planets, planets!  Her emphasis is on the kids' education.  She wants to "wow" them to pique their interest in science.  Her instructions to me were: "I want to see Jupiter as big as possible with the greatest amount of detail for under $1,500."

Although I have been observing for a few years now, my knowledge is limited to my one and only scope (12" go-to Dob).  From cruising these forums for the last few days, I'm guessing I need a refractor for planets?

I would prefer to get one with a 2" barrel, since I already own those eyepieces. But I also have some 1.25" eyepieces, so that's not a deal breaker.  Other considerations are the fact that she loves the way the go-to follows objects.  Having the scope stay on an object while managing kids is pretty important, but I don't guess that is a deal breaker either.  Again, emphasis is "as big and detailed as possible" (she made me recite that a few times out loud).

So I found the Celestron Advanced VX 6 refractor: https://www.telescope.com/All-Telescopes/Telescopes/Refractor-Telescopes/Refractor-Telescopes-with-Premium-Optics/Celestron-Advanced-VX-6-Refractor-Telescope/rc/2162/pc/2130/c/2139/sc/1981/p/103024.uts

But then I had a moment of clarity and decided to pop in here and get some real advice since I'm still a beginner myself.  Is a refractor really what I need?  Is that Celestron a good scope?  I think the planets look great through my 12" Dob, but that's not really an option because she can't take it out by herself (too big/heavy).  An internet friend who is an amateur also told me to get a CST instead, so now I am all confused.

Planets; moderate light pollution; no interest in photography; no interest in DSOs; "as big and as detailed as possible".  Please help, and thank you in advance.

Ultimately the 12" will give better results under good conditions and when cooled and collimated properly but it's no good if your wife can't set it up. 

I would not recommend the VX6 as it is a big long beast of a refractor and will still suffer from chromatic abberation on planets.

My two suggestions would be either a Celestron 8" SCT which is quite compact and manageable, perhaps the 8SE variant as that will be around the budget level. This 8" scope will give decent planetary performance, and will track and find the targets.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/se-series/celestron-nexstar-8se.html

If a refractor is a must, then perhaps a Skywatcher 120ED which has lovely, well corrected optics and performs well for planetary observing. The mount would be perhaps an EQ5 with goto 

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/pro-series/skywatcher-evostar-120ed-ds-pro-outfit.html

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/skywatcher-mounts/skywatcher-eq5-pro-synscan-goto.html

You may have to look at used products to stick within budget on the second option, and would probably need additional eyepieces to get optimal planetary views.

[M Astronomy]

Yes, refractors are often recommended for planets, as they have better contrast. But if your wife has seen through your 12 inch dob, a 6 inch refractor will disappoint her. The drop on aperture makes a huge difference. 

You're never going to see Jupiter like it is in the images. Never. And to see it "as big as possible" means lots of magnification. Very high magnification is only possible with excellent seeing otherwise you just get a big blob. 

Rather than buy an expensive telescope to "pique their interest in science", buy them an astronomy book with spectacular Hubble images and information on all sorts of different space objects. Or better still, take them to a planetarium or science centre. Speaking from my own experience, I got hooked on space from reading books and seeing pictures. My dad took me out stargazing once or twice, but we didn't have a telescope. Just seeing the vast amount of stars spread out across the sky fascinated me. But I was more interested in what I was seeing, not how pretty it was. Give them the resources to learn, not just to see.

Hope this helps. 

[dweller25]

Hello Anson,

The planets are not well placed for the next few years - although they may be better at your latitude than here in the UK.

I would show your wife and children the planets through the 12" first as it is a formidable planetary scope - you may find after one or two viewings they prefer to do other things.

If you still want a planetary scope that's easy to setup then Stu's suggestion of a Celestron C8 SCT is a good one.

I  would also recommend you stear clear of the Celestron 6" achromatic refractor - the C8 offers the same views and is lighter.

[Moonshane]

Some good points made above. I think that a 120ED refractor as linked above would be a great choice but it's still quite a heavy lump of a scope especially when combined with a an appropriate mount. This would be a great companion to your existing scope either way - i.e. whether your other family members get involved or not. Also consider the planets are going to be a bit poor from many latitudes for the next year or two - check this.

Ultimately, there will have to be a compromise somewhere and maybe that's the problem. Compromise does often equate to disappointment.

[Moonshane]

Another option is to make a pair of 'wheel barrow handles' for the big dob so that this can be used by anyone?

[ansonmaddox]

I am overwhelmed by the great advice here.  Thank you so much.

Charic & M Astronomy: Such excellent advice, but I left out some key information while trying to be brief.  The oversized Hubble Anniversary book was what first caught my kids attention.  I use Stellarium to plan my viewing.  But my kids are still in Elementary school, so the Stellarium images are just "something on Dad's computer".  The trouble we are having is connecting the images in the book and Stellarium to the real world.  They just don't believe that those things are actually in the sky.  It's not "real" for them - maybe they are too young to make the connection?  My wife was never interested in my astronomy hobby until I showed her Saturn last year in the 12" Dob, and it blew her mind!  There were literally tears.  I think she wants to give that to the kids - although it's probably impossible to recreate that moment.  Bottom-line: great advice.  Thank you.

Moonshane: Wheel barrow.  I'll get to work.  I'll have to build ramps because I don't like to leave the scope in the garage when it is -10 degrees as it is right now in Indiana.  The mice chew it apart.

Ruud: Any links or particular vendor?  I'm not pulling up much with Google using "Rumak Maksutov" for some reason.

Stu and/or dweller25: Can you explain the difference between the Celestron 8 & the 8SE?  Optical quality?  The Celestron website is horrible for some reason.  Not even a "Compare" option.  Thanks so much for the links!

I will Google the issue with planets not being in good shape for the next couple of years.  I was not aware of that because I haven't looked at a single planet since I showed my wife Saturn last year.  I will explain that problem to the wife, and I will also explain your collective agreement that a new telescope may not "do it" for the kids in the first place and that she shouldn't try to recreate her experience with them.

With all of that in mind (explain about the planet problem / don't throw money at something the kids may not even enjoy): I could blow up to $3,000 on a new setup.  I was just trying to stick within her arbitrary budget.  Not knowing anything about observing planets - would throwing additional money at it solve any issues here, or is that a decreasing benefit?  I'm honestly asking because for all I know, you'll say, "Oh yeah, if you've got $X to spend, you can blow their minds with planets, you just can't do it on $1,500."  DSOs are easy: biggest aperture = best viewing.  Planets, not so much.

Thanks again in advance, and thank you for all the great advice so far.

[Ruud]

Here's one: http://www.orionoptics.co.uk/OMC/omc140maksutovca.html 140mm aperture for £760

Just search for buy makstov rumak. Ordinary maks have a silvered spot on the corrector plate. Rumaks have their secondary on a support, like a Schmidt Cassegrain. 

[Stu]

11 minutes ago, ansonmaddox said:

Stu and/or dweller25: Can you explain the difference between the Celestron 8 & the 8SE?  Optical quality?  The Celestron website is horrible for some reason.  Not even a "Compare" option.  Thanks so much for the links!

There are various 8" SCT models. I'm not an expert by any means, but as far as I'm aware there are only three different tubes optically, the standard, XLT with enhanced coatings and the Edge HD which has additional flattener elements to produce a flat field for imaging but it also improves observing with low power widefield eyepieces.

The remaining differences are in the mounts. You can buy the OTA on its own, or with a few different mount types. I'll link to the variants as I know them:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/optical-tube-assemblies/celestron-nexstar-evolution-8-ota.html

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/optical-tube-assemblies/celestron-c8-xlt-optical-tube-assembly.html

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/optical-tube-assemblies/celestron-edge-hd-series.html

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/advanced-vx-goto/celestron-c8-edge-hd-vx-goto.html

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/se-series/celestron-nexstar-8se.html

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/nexstar-evolution-telescopes/celestron-nexstar-evolution-8-telescope.html

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/cpc-gps-series/celestron-cpc-800-gps-xlt.html

There are various other models beyond this but you can probably find these from the links given.

By the way, depending upon where you are in Indiana, you may well be at lower latitudes to us in the UK so the planets may be better positioned i.e. higher in the sky and in clearer air than in the U.K.

Hope that is of some further help.

Stu

[Geoff Lister]

Unfortunately, the "interesting" planets are only going to be visible before dawn, and not in the evenings. I have just run Stellarium for Indianapolis, and Jupiter (with Mars very close below), will rise from your south-east horizon at about 4:00 tomorrow morning.

I have a Skywatcher Skymax with a 127mm Maksutov optical tube, and Synscan GoTo. Its long focal length is good for viewing planets, and the whole assembly is very portable. I believe a similar setup is retailed in the USA using the "Orion" name.

I liked it so much, that I bought a second one for my holiday home, 8 degrees further south, in France.

The setup above has the eyepiece replaced by a basic webcam, fitted with a 1.25" adaptor, and feeding a laptop. This works well for recording short videos of Jupiter.

Geoff

[alanjgreen]

If you are a visual observer wanting to see the planets then I would avoid EQ mounts such as the Celestron VX. The eyepiece will end up all over the place and you will have to mess about moving it to a location where you can get your eye to it.

An AZ Mount is a better option for visual observation.

I would go with an 8” SCT on an AZ Mount such as the Celestron 8SE. With this the eyepiece will always be at the back. You can get a chair setup and sit there enjoying the view. The long focal length of SCTs makes them great on planets.

With planets you need to spend time at the eyepiece if you want to tease out the details. Sitting comfortable at a tracking scope is a big plus.

You mention you want a 2” barrel. You will need to purchase a 2” Visual Back and a 2” Star diagonal as optional extras to use your 2” eyepieces in the 8SE.

I believe the Celestron Edge SCTs come with these 2” accessories as standard, something to check... 

Alan

[Stub Mandrel]

Hmm.

The best solution for under $1500 might be a top-quality 3x barlow for your dob.

Otherwise it sounds like you are talking an 8" SCT as others have noted.

[ansonmaddox]

Rudd: Thank you!  There's not too many of those out there, but I am enjoying looking for them.  I am also enjoying reading this: https://neilenglish.net/the-joy-of-the-maksutov-telescope/  It explains some of the history of the Rumak and the development of the Maksutovs in general.

Geoff Lister: You're spot on - the wife randomly woke up early this morning and came outside.  She asked what the big bright thing in the SE sky was, and I said "Who cares?  I'm looking at the Rose Cluster."  (apparently, she cared...)  Also, awesome setup!

Stu, alanjgreen, Stub Mandrel:  I'm on it.  Thanks for the links, Stu.  Diving in now to find a SCT or a Mak like Rudd suggests.  Truly appreciate it.  I'll post a link if I bullseye one.

Thanks so much to everyone for steering me away from that monster Celestron refractor.  70 lbs and over 4 ft long!  What was I thinking?!?

 

[knobby]

How about one of these ?

http://www.telescope.com/mobileProduct/Celestron-NexStar-Evolution-925-SCT-Telescope/106933.uts

Or any 9.25 SCT for that matter.

Damian Peach loves them for planets.

http://www.damianpeach.com/c925review.htm

And good luck choosing.

[Stu]

By the way, planetary viewing is a different story to most DSOs. Planets are small, and need high power (> x150 up to x250 and more) to see properly. The DSO equivalent are small galaxies which are faint, but planets are bright.

To get good views, the first thing you need is a stable atmosphere with the minimum of air between you and the target. This means having the planet at the highest altitude in the sky, which happens when it crosses the meridian each night. Altitude is also affected by your latitude, the further south you go, the higher they get which is why all of us in the U.K. are looking for the biggest scope we can fit on a plane south!

So, we've got minimum air between us, now we just need to make sure that the air is stable. That's mostly down to chance, what weather systems are coming through, what are the high level jetstream winds doing. If the seeing (as it is called) is poor, you just won't get good views. This is just a matter of trying on different nights until you get a good one!

The type of seeing you can affect is the local stuff. Where possible avoid setting up on tarmac or concrete as it stores heat and releases it at night causing convection currents. Same with houses, in winter central heating flues and the loss of heat from roofs causes currents which spoil the view, so avoid observing over them. Normally the most stable time from this perspective is the early hours of the morning, everything has reached near equilibrium and the air is much more stable.

Next, your scope. If it has not reached thermal equilibrium (either heating up or cooling down given air conditioning in the US!), then you will get thermal currents in the telescope tube which will spoil the views.

Collimation of newtonians and SCTs is very important for good high power views with good contrast, so make sure this is done well and checked regularly.

What's left? Size of planets? Without going into too much detail, they are at their best when closest to the earth and opposite the sun in the sky (called opposition for the superior planets). Mars in particular varies from a tiny disk showing no detail, to being relatively large at opposition and able to show surprising detail under good conditions.

Scope? I've seen very nice planetary images in a wide range of scopes, so it really is down to the stuff above as to how you get the best views. As a general statement though, a good large aperture scope delivers more resolution, will show more colour and potentially take higher power, but is also much more susceptible to poor seeing conditions. A good 4" apo frac will regularly deliver stable images which show nice detail and are a joy to view. A 16" dob will show far more detail and colour given excellent seeing conditions. In variable conditions you have to wait longer for stable moments with a larger scope than a smaller one so it can be frustrating but ultimately the view should be better in the larger scope (assuming similar optical quality)

Lastly, the guy or gal on the end of the eyepiece. What do they need? Above all, patience. Spend time at the eyepiece, not just 30 seconds or 5 minutes, observe for half an hour and you will catch the moments of good seeing when the detail become clear and steady. Get the focus right, adjust it to your eye and don't assume yours is the same as the other observers. Get it right and then try not to chase it. You build up a picture of the detail in you mind and know what to look for next time. The longer you look, the more you see (unless the seeing falls off a cliff!) Many of us nutters spend hours out there staring at Jupiter around opposition, seeking those moments of excellent seeing when everything turns photographic for a short while, then it is normal mushy service resumed  

Ramble over  

[John]

Good ramble Stu - spot on

My 12" dob will out perform my refractors on most nights on the planets but the ED120 gets surprisingly close given the whopping aperture difference.

Spending time at the eyepiece is vital to getting the most from planetary observing though.

[Charic]

1 hour ago, ansonmaddox said:

The trouble we are having is connecting the images in the book and Stellarium to the real world.  They just don't believe that those things are actually in the sky.  It's not "real" for them - maybe they are too young to make the connection?

So without going down the astrophotography route where sensors can detect more details, over time, which then needs processing, your children, unfortunately,  are going to be disappointed looking through an expensive refractor, and still not see anything.

Not sure if the  newest Virtual Reality systems can help, but maybe a virtual headset, connected to an all singing computer might help with their imaginations, they might even be able to play a  game or two!

[Stu]

Just now, Charic said:

So without going down the astrophotography route where sensors can detect more details, over time, which then needs processing, your children, unfortunately,  are going to be disappointed looking through an expensive refractor, and still not see anything.

Not sure if the  newest Virtual Reality systems can help, but maybe a virtual headset, connected to an all singing computer might help with their imaginations, they might even be able to play a  game or two!

I can't agree with that Charic.

When conditions are good, the planetary views that can be obtained are excellent. Watching a shadow transit on Jupiter, or seeing the Great Red Spot move slowly across the face and seeing detail in it are incredible when you consider the distances involved. Also, young eyes will not suffer from floaters so much and will be much more sensitive, so a motivated and well guided child will see plenty at higher powers than us oldies can manage.

[Stub Mandrel]

37 minutes ago, Stu said:

Also, young eyes will not suffer from floaters so much

I've just read up on floaters and apparently as you enter old age, your vitreous humour liquifies and floaters gradually disappear, so it isn't ALL bad news!

[Stu]

6 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

I've just read up on floaters and apparently as you enter old age, your vitreous humour liquifies and floaters gradually disappear, so it isn't ALL bad news!

Probably at about the time your cataracts kick in ??

[Charic]

42 minutes ago, Stu said:

I can't agree with that Charic.

I don't have an issue with that! Thats what forums are for.

42 minutes ago, Stu said:

When conditions are good, the planetary views that can be obtained are excellent. Watching a shadow transit on Jupiter, or seeing the Great Red Spot move slowly across the face and seeing detail in it are incredible when you consider the distances involved.

Totally agree, happened  once in three Years for me ?

-------------------------
My reply above was in response specifically  when ansonmaddox mention's "The trouble we are having is connecting the images in the book and Stellarium to the real world".
I automatically assumed he'll need to look down the astrophotographic route, in order to see details that come anywhere near to those in books and Stellarium.
From my  own garden, I have never seen anything up there with 'lots' of detail, even colour eludes me, apart from the obvious Stars, but anything of significance up there is generally a grey wispy smudge (M31)  but when the conditions allow,  away from home, there's  many more wispy smudges and M31 becomes surprisingly vast! 

 

[Ben the Ignorant]

Refractors give the least disturbed views of the planets and all small targets, but large achromats lose contrast because of their outdated glass. What remains is the largest possible apos and semi-apos. To remain within your budget, a 125mm to 130mm scope is the answer. TS markets these two:

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/language/en/info/p6679_TS-Optics-PHOTOLINE-130-mm-f-7-Triplett-Apo---FPL53---2-5-inch-RPA-Auszug.html

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p10133_TS-Optics-PhotoLine-125-mm-f-7-8-FPL53-Lanthan-Apo---2-5--Auszug.html

(The 125 exists as a clone marketed by Stellarvue)

And both are large enough to compete with your dob on the deep sky, you won't be dismayed by the drop in diameter.

[Stu]

26 minutes ago, Charic said:

I don't have an issue with that! Thats what forums are for.

Totally agree, happened  once in three Years for me ?

-------------------------
My reply above was in response specifically  when ansonmaddox mention's "The trouble we are having is connecting the images in the book and Stellarium to the real world".
I automatically assumed he'll need to look down the astrophotographic route, in order to see details that come anywhere near to those in books and Stellarium.
From my  own garden, I have never seen anything up there with 'lots' of detail, even colour eludes me, apart from the obvious Stars, but anything of significance up there is generally a grey wispy smudge (M31)  but when the conditions allow,  away from home, there's  many more wispy smudges and M31 becomes surprisingly vast! 

 

Of course, no problems with a gentlemen's disagreement  

Obviously experiences are different. When Jupiter is well placed I regularly see good detail on it, shadow and moon transits, GRS, belt detail, it really does show plenty to keep me entertained.

My oft posted iPhone shot of Jupiter shows an indication of what is visible, but the visual view is much better than this shot.