Please Help Me Upgrade My Mount...

[PhotoGav]

One of the problems with astrophotographers appears to be the insatiable desire to spend money in the attempt to improve results. I fit into this bracket very neatly. I am looking at the upgrade path for my back garden observatory and the fundamental element towards the nirvana of perfection is the mount. Currently I use my trusty old HEQ5 Pro, which never ceases to amaze me with its willingness to keep on tracking. However, I am well aware that it is probably the weakest link in my imaging chain. So, what would be the best mount to aim for?

My brief research so far has identified the following mounts, but I am interested to hear your opinions and advice as to which would be the best value option and the 'easiest' to integrate into my set-up. I use SGPro for orchestration of everything and am quite keen to stick with that as I have put in the hours to learn the software and find that, for the most part, it does the job I need very well. So, the options are, in ascending new price order:

Skywatcher AZ EQ6-GT, £1389, max imaging payload (MIP) 18kg
Skywatcher EQ8 Pro, £2579, MIP 50kg
Avalon Instruments M-Linear Fast Reverse, £4298, MIP 20kg
Mesu Mount 200, £5500, MIP 100kg
10 Micron GM1000 HPS, £7140, MIP 25kg
Paramount MX+, £9078, MIP 46kg

As for budget, this is a 'save up goal', so all are possible, eventually! Please do let me know of any other suitable mounts out there that I have missed in my research so far.

Thank you!

[DaveS]

Of the mounts listed I'd go either for the Mesu or 10Micron. Ask @ollypenrice about Mesu, they just plain *work*. A number of members here also have them. Also the 10Micron looks increasingly popular here, and will allow you to chuck away the guide 'scope as it guides on its encoders and a sky model.

Unfortunately the mount I know and would recommend, the ASA DDM60 isn't made any more, the cheapest is now one of the DDM85 variants, but they start at £12.5k and go up rapidly. The DDM mounts also guide on encoders and sky models, but being direct drive have no PE or backlash. They also run a local model that gets errors down to, essentially, zero.

[RayD]

I have the AZ EQ6 which is used in Spain and is great, and also the Mesu200 in my obsy here, which is an absolute dream to use.  When looking recently at @Davey-T's 10Micron, you have to be impressed with the looks and engineering delicacy, superb, which you definitely don't get with the Mesu.  However, I can't rate the Mesu highly enough.

I use both with SG Pro with no problems at all.

Below is the kit on my Mesu and it doesn't bat an eyelid with 30min guided subs (on the Esprit 100 not the C8).

[AKB]

It does rather depend on the 'scope that you intend to put on the mount.

I see you have an Avalon on the list.  I love my Avalon M-Uno, which is rated up to 20kg for imaging.  It’s particularly nice in that it doesn’t have large counterweights, doesn’t suffer backlash, and doesn’t need a meridian flip.  Highly recommended.

[cfpendock]

I have to say that my Tak EM200 Temma mount has been completely reliable.  In particular, the polar alignment is incredibly quick and easy - not that this is so useful to yourself if it is permanently mounted.  Although the max load is said to be 18kg, I have never had a problem with my de-forked CPC1100 together with all it's gear (easily 15kg +).

The earlier EM200 mounts use a plastic drive gear, but all gears are now made of bronze.

Chris

[swag72]

I think that it depends on what you are going to put on the mount...... what weight limit do you want? The Avalon is a fantastic mount and I loved mine, but I started to hit it's weight capacity and so changed to the Mesu.

Do I like my Mesu? Yes I do..... but here's the thing. I've recently got another mount for my dual rig. I wanted a large payload and so that led me to Mesu type capacity. I didn't want another Mesu and so I got a second hand EQ8. It has my dual rig on it and so it's not taxing it at all with regards to guiding (3.37" per pixel). I have to say that so far I am VERY impressed. The PA adjustment is 100x better than the Mesu for me. It seems to be well engineered and there's no backlash that I have found. I've had it guiding for a few hours now and it guided without missing a beat at 0.5 RMS. Am I glad that I bought the EQ8? Yes I am. 

I cannot say whether it would guide as well at 0.63" image scale as the Mesu as I won't be trying it, so in a way a comparison between the two is a moot point. 

For me if I was going to change the Mesu that I have for long focal length work I think I'd give the EQ8 a punt. 

I used a Polemaster for the EQ8 and it worked really well. I have it sitting on a Berlebach wooden tripod. 

If the question was asked 'Would you buy another Mesu?' ... well I didn't .... if you asked me would I buy another EQ8? Then I'd certainly get one. 

Just my thoughts and I'm sure they will be very different to anyone else!

[DaveS]

If I was buying another mount it would be the DDM85 Std, with 60kg payload. The "Basic" version (If £12.5k can be called "basic" ) has a 40kg payload but I don't like the PA adjusters, while the "Pro" has a 100 kg payload but costs nearly £20k and needs a special, bespoke pier costing another £4.5k  .

All the DDM85 mounts have absolute encoders so can slew as soon as they are powered up. The cheapo DDM60 only has incremental encoders so I have to do a zero find and one-star sync.

[PhotoGav]

Excellent feedback, thank you all of you.

As regards what I would put on the mount? Camera is a QSI-683-WSG8, with Lodestar guidecam. I use Lakeside autofocus systems. I have the EdgeHD 800 and WO Star 71 scopes at the moment and am looking for a mid range focal length scope (an Esprit 100, WO 102 or Tak FSQ106 are currently in the running, but that's a whole different thread!). I am definitely considering the idea of having more than one scope on the mount as I would like to put my Lunt 50 on there too to make solar imaging quicker and easier, so a decent (not sure exactly how much - I must work that out) payload is required.

Very interesting feedback about the EQ8, Sara, as that represents the best MIP : cost ratio - does that equate to 'best value'? Maybe!

I am used to guiding with PHD2, so is it necessary / beneficial to have something that doesn't require guiding?

Dave - thank you for the strong support of ASA, but I think that if I aim for something with a price tag of over £20k, I will never get there!

[swag72]

2 minutes ago, PhotoGav said:

.......I am used to guiding with PHD2, so is it necessary / beneficial to have something that doesn't require guiding? ......

Necessary to not guide? Have you ever seen a good image from anybody that uses PHD2 to guide? If so then I'd say that having something that doesn't guide is not necessary  

[RayD]

19 minutes ago, swag72 said:

I think that it depends on what you are going to put on the mount...... what weight limit do you want? The Avalon is a fantastic mount and I loved mine, but I started to hit it's weight capacity and so changed to the Mesu.

Do I like my Mesu? Yes I do..... but here's the thing. I've recently got another mount for my dual rig. I wanted a large payload and so that led me to Mesu type capacity. I didn't want another Mesu and so I got a second hand EQ8. It has my dual rig on it and so it's not taxing it at all with regards to guiding (3.37" per pixel). I have to say that so far I am VERY impressed. The PA adjustment is 100x better than the Mesu for me. It seems to be well engineered and there's no backlash that I have found. I've had it guiding for a few hours now and it guided without missing a beat at 0.5 RMS. Am I glad that I bought the EQ8? Yes I am. 

I cannot say whether it would guide as well at 0.63" image scale as the Mesu as I won't be trying it, so in a way a comparison between the two is a moot point. 

For me if I was going to change the Mesu that I have for long focal length work I think I'd give the EQ8 a punt. 

I used a Polemaster for the EQ8 and it worked really well. I have it sitting on a Berlebach wooden tripod. 

If the question was asked 'Would you buy another Mesu?' ... well I didn't .... if you asked me would I buy another EQ8? Then I'd certainly get one. 

Just my thoughts and I'm sure they will be very different to anyone else!

That's really interesting Sara as when I bought my Mesu I was going to get the EQ8, but was discouraged by several members here with stories of backlash, poor engineering and rusting/corroding components.

Is yours a new model and has SW upgraded the mount?  I would be interested in one for Spain as I would like a solar scope on it as well so if they have changed this could be a goer.

[PhotoGav]

6 minutes ago, swag72 said:

Necessary to not guide? Have you ever seen a good image from anybody that uses PHD2 to guide? If so then I'd say that having something that doesn't guide is not necessary

The case has been rested...!

[DaveS]

All I can say is, since I moved to encoder guiding I haven't missed PHD2 and its "bongs" at all.

Agreed that £20k+ for a DDM85 Pro is way over the top (Don't look at the cost of the DDM160 versions   ), even the 85 Basic might be a bit steep. Perhaps if someone were upgrading from a DDM60 to a DDM85 you might pick one up S/H, though I'm hanging on to mine .

[ollypenrice]

I know a number of people who use, or have tried to use, unguided mounts. It has always struck me as being more bother than it's worth. When it works it works, but some people find that they have sources of flexure which are very hard to pin down but which cease to matter with an OAG. The multi-point sky models need remaking every few months, etc etc. This isn't for me but it might be for you.

EM200. Never again. I had the Temma Junior which was junior in what it delivered but senior to the point of geriatric in price. It had the plastic gears. The PA routine was fantastic but for the rest it was fickle, spares prices were barking mad and performance was inconsistent and scarcely any different from an EQ6. I also have one here with the brass gears and it's OK. No more than OK though.

EQ8. Having seen a strip-down video these are not for me either. Grub screw tightening straight onto threads. Noooo. I'd buy one for a big visual scope, maybe, and Sara is only using one at an easy guiding scale so I can see the case for this mount.

Mesu. I have two and, yes, they just work. On mine the PA adjusters are great. Big, chunky, predctable. I wonder if Sara has a mount plate that isn't properly flat, or if the bottom side of the mount isn't perfectly flat? I've polar aligned three Mesus (my own and one in the robotic shed) and all have been easy. We needed just two iterations per axis to Polar align the first one. Yves and I stared at each other in disbelief, I remember! 

Avalon. I wish they had stuck with the EQ6 handset, motors and motherboard. These worked well and were cheap and easy to source. The three Avalons I've known here have always worked well but they are too close in price to the Mesu to be a contendor as observatory mounts. Great engineering thugh and likely to last a long, long time.

10 Micron do not have a clean copy book here. There have been several significant failures but I still like them.

As everybody knows, I'm a Mesu man. Given the performance, long term, that we've had here, given the real all-metal engineering, the consistency, the reliability, I could never justify a change. And I love the lack of styling!

Olly

[ollypenrice]

9 minutes ago, DaveS said:

All I can say is, since I moved to encoder guiding I haven't missed PHD2 and its "bongs" at all.

No, the bongs do sound like the fatal bellman, I agree! However, I only get the bongs when the sky is falling over and it would be a waste of time imaging further in any case.

Olly

[PhotoGav]

Thank you Olly - a real world evaluation of the options, very much appreciated. Mesu is creeping up the table - mid div price, huuuuge payload and positive feedback from all concerned - a real contender. As for styling - that doesn't feature in my requirements list. Sure, the Avalon gear looks great, it is Italian afterall, but for the vast majority of my astronomy time I'm looking at a computer screen, not the mount...!

[Davey-T]

I bought the 10Micron as I wanted something I could just about lift to take to dark sites, if it was permanent obs'y mounted I would have bought the Mesu.

PA on the 10Micron is a doddle.

Sky modelling on the 10Micron can be a problem with reflectors and mirror shift, you can guide the 10Micron if you wish but unguided it will carry on untroubled during passing cloud

Dave

[PhotoGav]

Thanks Dave, that's very interesting. I oogled at your 10Micron at SGL SP2017, so you are partly to blame for all of this!!

[Neil27]

Without wanting to add to your woes of trying to decide Gav, have you considered Gemini mounts?

http://www.geminitelescope.com/g53f-friction-drive-mount-german-equatorial/

Gemini have also been building their mounts for a good 20 years or so and have experience of the friction drives as well.

And lastly you don't hear anything about them, which I interpret as current owners having no or very little issue?

I'll be in the same boat in about 3 years, when I hope to purchase my 'retirement' mount.

All the best shopping, in this price range we are spoilt for choice!

Neil.

[Barry-Wilson]

33 minutes ago, Neil27 said:

Without wanting to add to your woes of trying to decide Gav, have you considered Gemini mounts?

http://www.geminitelescope.com/g53f-friction-drive-mount-german-equatorial/

Gemini have also been building their mounts for a good 20 years or so and have experience of the friction drives as well.

And lastly you don't hear anything about them, which I interpret as current owners having no or very little issue?

I'll be in the same boat in about 3 years, when I hope to purchase my 'retirement' mount.

All the best shopping, in this price range we are spoilt for choice!

Neil.

Hi Gav

I was going to make this suggestion too - same technology as the Mesu and it might be interesting to do a more detailed comparison.

There are also Losmandy mounts, Ian King is now selling these.

Of course it all depends on what your objectives are and what you think your future load capacity may be.

There are plenty of good options out there, including second hand, as from time-to-time you do see PMX on Astro Buy and Sell.

I don't believe any mount or manufacturer offers the "perfect" mount so it's all about trade-offs and your personal preferences.

What a great position to be in though, eh, considering your next mount .

[PhotoGav]

Oooh, interesting about the Gemini mount - not one I was aware of, so thank you for that. I will do some reading.

Indeed Barry, it's great to go window shopping and hopefully it won't take me forever to acrue the necessaries for it to become a reality. Though not quite into 2 x 10 Micron territory yet!

[DaveS]

Have a look on the astrograph.net website, they stock Gemini.

I'll try and post a link but it's not easy on my mobile.

[PhotoGav]

1 minute ago, DaveS said:

Have a look on the astrograph.net website, they stock Gemini.

I'll try and post a link but it's not easy on my mobile.

Thank you - I'll look at that. Just checked the Astrograph page and see that Rupert supplies ASA kit too.

http://astrograph.net/epages/www_astrograph_net.sf/en_GB/?ViewAction=View&ObjectPath=/Shops/www_astrograph_net/Categories/Shop/Mounts/Motorised_Mounts&PageSize=50&Page=1

 

[DaveS]

Yes he does, see my sig .

[swag72]

If I was buying a new mount there'd only be a couple of retailers I would buy from..... in my opinion alone a reliable retailer that you know will deal with any issues quickly and without issue is worth far more than anything else.....

[DaveS]

When I bought my mount I'd been in a long email exchange with Rupert. He delivered the mount himself, having just been to another customer (Also a member here), and didn't leave until the mount was on the pier, balanced and checked out as working. I think it was about 7.30 pm before he was finished.