E.Bay Scopes

[Woodsey65]

I agree with Beamer3.6m,

Most of my newbie members get lots of duff info from lots of sources, so when they join a club, the chances of getting it 'wrong' are high. The snob thing is applicable to most hobbies that have 'experts with all the gear and no idea'. It's an easy trap. It's so easy to buy a bad telescope, but surprisingly hard to sort out a good one.

It's why we have 6 different 'scopes to tryout, 3"-6" apertures, and a 10 " dob, and it's free to tryout from INTECH at Winchester, central Hampshire...

Just wish there were more proper astronomy retailers in the county. Why are they in London?????

[FLO]

Just wish there were more proper astronomy retailers in the county. Why are they in London?????

If by 'proper' you mean traditional bricks-and-mortar dealers then the reason there are so few is because most of us aren't prepared to pay for them. We like online prices and it is difficult for a dealer to run a showroom and remain competitive.

They are often located in London and similar because the locals are well-heeled and so less likely to shop around for the lowest price...

[Ant]

Retail frontage is extremely expensive, and lets face it a telescope isn't on peoples shopping list - a new camera maybe, but not telescopes.

It's just not an impulse buy.

Ant

[James]

They are often located in London and similar because the locals are well-heeled and so less likely to shop around for the lowest price...

It's also where the customers are - some 20-25% of the UK's total population live within two hours of London.

James

[Woodsey65]

'Proper' is yes, bricks and mortar in many peoples eyes though that is changing, and I fully understand the costs of running any retail operation. Sorry if I touched a nerve.

By 'Proper' I mean is not any store that sells cheap toy telescopes... is say Argos a 'proper' place to buy a telescope? Many do, however and it's up to them.

Not an opinion just a plain fact. Is eBay? The point of this thread.

Buying a telescope should be a considered purchase. Most of the time it is.

I love online prices and online businesses... often it means lower prices and great service. FLO is a great example of that. I bought on service.

My point is there are so few places one can go to get advice face to face other than a club. Most of the time you have to join (pay) or get advice from other sources that simply confuse. Astronomy is not easily understood, as it is a complex subject, and telescopes, though simple in essence, require a degree of time and skill to master. Some people are better off starting with binoculars, some nova hunters don't use anything else. It's not just about the kit.

I agree with you Steve, James and Ant. 20-25% eh? Explains why I get so many e-mails. Well-heeled? You ain't seen me in my Stilettos then! :shock:

I walk tall(er) and not too bad for a hobbit from middle-earth.

eBay sells on price, because at the end of the day it's an auction site. Some retailers of all types have adopted it to sell product. Some good, some bad.

FLO and SGL ably demonstrate how astronomy can be accessible and that the right info can be found. Astro-clubs should play a part and that's what we are trying to do as a group, not all do. We show them physically what telescopes can do and direct them to places like FLO and SGL. We don't sell telescopes, but we do use them and are unbiased in our approach. It's based on experience.

Its armed with the right information that people can make better choices.

A bit like this debate. Next question is, how can it be improved?

Dave

[FLO]

'Proper' is yes, bricks and mortar in many peoples eyes though that is changing, and I fully understand the costs of running any retail operation. Sorry if I touched a nerve.

Not at all, before FLO I spent sixteen years working in a showroom for an independent photo retailer so understand and appreciate the arguments for that style of retail

FLO and SGL ably demonstrate how astronomy can be accessible and that the right info can be found.

FLO was born from SGL and the SGL/FLO/Customer relationship is very symbiotic. It was not simply a happy accident, it was planned that way and I am confident that it will go from strength to strength and that all three will continue to benefit.

[John]

This has turned into an interesting and wide ranging thread

I guess all we can do is to make sensible information for people interested in becoming involved in the hobby widely and readily available.

At the end of the day, some people will do some research before they buy and some won't - those that don't may end up dissapointed and feel that they have wasted their money but if the information is readily available and they don't choose to read it then there is little we can do to help.

The one's I feel most for are those that have just made a purchase and then discover SGL and start asking questions - and the realisation gradully dawns that they might not have made a good purchase. At least we can help them through that process though and hopefully keep their interest the hobby

John

[RichieJarvis]

As far as Ebay scopes go, I don't think its too surprising - lots of folks are trying to make a quick buck, which means the public can easily get ripped off. Saying that though, amongst all of that are the local folks using Ebay instead of their local rag for advertising things, so there are definately bargins to be had.

One of the things I have never understood about Ebay is quite why some items go for such high prices - I've seen certain items go for above the retail value, which is just insane.

Anyway - part of the reason I got into Astro-photography is the disappointing view you get through an eyepiece (ok ok - flame me now!) I honestly think the hubble images you get on ANY telescope box should be banned - that just isn't what things look like in reality. Its just faint fuzzy after faint fuzzy. Don't get me wrong here - I can quite easily gaze up at the heavens for hours. The planets are definately high on my list for the 'wow' factor - especially Saturn and Jupiter. M42 when its up is a wonderful sight, as it M45.

I also think that anything which requires the use of averted vision is also a bit out of league for the general public - that takes practice, and most kids don't really do practice.

So, for me, I get my kicks out of capturing photons, and seeing what I can make them do.

Cheers,

Richie

[beamer3.6m]

I'm with RichieJarvis, I think if astrophotography was not an option with reasonably priced kit I would have most likely given up as faint fuzzies are just not my bag.

[John]

I'm with RichieJarvis, I think if astrophotography was not an option with reasonably priced kit I would have most likely given up as faint fuzzies are just not my bag.

Thats an interesting view - often with newcomers to the hobby we recommend not getting into imaging to start with and to stick with learning to use the scope, finding your way around the sky etc.

I guess the learning curve with imaging is steeper but maybe the "wow" factor is more likely to occur early ? - I've always thought that imaging was much more exacting and time consuming than observing - maybe thats not true today .

John

[Astro_Baby]

I agree - in fact someone told me that there are two major factors to people quitting the hobby

cheap scopes and astro-photography.

I think astro-photography still does have the power to put people off as even at the cheap end it can still be expensive - apart from afocal type stuff.

Oddly I got back into it to do astro-photography which 20 years ago was nigh on impossible but I found its still expensive to do what I'd want to do, the learning curve is very steep and the real killer for me is that it would mean being sat in front of a PC for even more of my time which completely kills it for me.

And yes people lose their marbles on e-bay. I was watching a clapped out TAL scope on Sunday night ( thought if it stayed cheap enough I might buy it for my kids ). We are talking shabby condition, ill cared for looking thing from 1995. I would have given it some TLC and let my boys have it as a surpise gift. It ended up being bid up to £35 which was mad really when someone on here was selling one for about £40 which was much newer and much loved.

[RichieJarvis]

It is very much a more time consuming - in fact, all consuming aspect of the hobby - however, the returns I find are amazing...

The learning curve is steep - I am lucky in that I am a computer expert by trade, so that part doesn't worry me Learning how to image, and what equipment is right for what circumstances is the hard part.

Imaging is certainly not something I would advise new users to take up, unless they have a passion for it (and plenty of dosh!)

I know everyone says 'learn the night sky' first - however, I have to say I have never followed that advice - its one of the reasons that I swapped out my first 8" newt for an ETX-105 with goto - star hopping just isn't for me - and I have never got on with binoculars. As it is, my knowledge improves every time I go out - I more sticks that way

[Whippy]

TBH, buying secondhand from anywhere can be a bit of a minefield. I've bought three scopes from AB&S, one was complete dog and another other one had an issue that I didn't spot untill well after I purchased it. But the third I have is excellent so it's not all bad .

At the end of the day, Ebay is kind of like the internet in microcosm. You get a whole lot of complete overpriced rubbish on there but there is a proportion of good stuff too, you just have to know what you're buying and lets be honest, a fool and their money are easily parted...

You can get that 'wow' factor with almost any scope but you have to be realistic about what you can see. You want colour? A good colour contrast double star like Albeiro. Loads of open clusters, doing a Milky Way scan, the Moon, Saturn, M42 and so on... Don't get me wrong, I love doing imaging but I've got to the point where I trust my setup enough to not sit in front of it all night which means I can bring out my wife's TAL1 for some observing (which was bought off of Ebay for £21 ) while the camera does it's thing.

Tony..

[PaulG]

Snip.....

For example, even on here we do not have a section of photos which actually show you what the item will look like, so person comes on here with no knowledge and goes to the images section and see's some fantastic shots. Goes home, buys a scope (decent or not) and see's nothing like it through the scope.

Snip......

Again, just another 2 penneth worth.

Hi Beamer

When I first clapped eyes on Saturn I thought "It's really small" and felt disappointed although the planet is beautifully formed and fascinating to look at even at lower magnifications.

For a beginner is very difficult to visualise how big and detailed the Moon or planets are going to be by just looking at the spec sheets.

Paul

[Periscope]

I think most beginners seem to think that looking at Jupiter or Saturn through a large aperture scope, will look as large as the Moon does when viewed through a pair of binoculars and feel quite dissapointed when they appear much smaller. What they don't realise is the vast distances the planets are from the Earth, compared to the Moon. I have even heard people say that the stars don't look any bigger through a large telescope. Obviously, quite a lot of people think that the larger the scope, the larger the image will appear and don't understand that stars don't look any larger than they do to the naked eye. It is the ability to gather more light, allowing one to see brighter images and lots more fainter objects, not the size of the image. It is surprising how many people think that they are going to see DSO's in their colourful glory, like those displayed in pictures.

Geoff

[Woodsey65]

Done my bit....

http://www.hantsastro.org/newt_optrons_150-1400.html

Dave...

[Grotemobile]

:newb:

Hi i bought one of these scopes in feb this year as a impulse

buy for £89.The only problem i had was that the barlow was loose in the focus

tube,so it would not focus properly. Iv done a star test & its not to bad .I wanted

a scope to see the planets & the moon,& that what this does.Ok is not up to

your £300 scopes ,but its got me the bug .I dont regret buying it.With these

scopes you get a good one,or bad one.This one seems ok.Iv had lot of use out

it.Im calling as i see it.I know what i want in my next scope.Im learning .

Steve

[RichieJarvis]

Good to see someone with a good experience

Sounds like you've been lucky. Either that, or when you try another one you'll be blown away!

[Woodsey65]

:newb:

Hi i bought one of these scopes in feb this year as a impulse

buy for £89.The only problem i had was that the barlow was loose in the focus

tube,so it would not focus properly. Iv done a star test & its not to bad .I wanted

a scope to see the planets & the moon,& that what this does.Ok is not up to

your £300 scopes ,but its got me the bug .I dont regret buying it.With these

scopes you get a good one,or bad one.This one seems ok.Iv had lot of use out

it.Im calling as i see it.I know what i want in my next scope.Im learning .

Steve

Hi Steve,

Glad you got a good one too. Newtonian 'scopes are sooo simple. A Tube, two mirrors and a simple focuser and an eye piece. The problem with cheaper telescopes apart from build materials is quality control. It seems they may have improved. My telescope I bought 4 years ago for £120 when I was a Newbie. Not every telescope manufacturer can be top of the tree, but to get a good reputation they have to be consistent. I also bought recently, a secondhand Skywatcher 130/900 of about the same age. It's £119 today. At £30 more it's less of an impulse buy, but better in every way.

Like you, I now know there are better instruments out there and as Richie says you will be blown away. How True! Now I have the Optrons set up it's a passable telescope. The 203mm was particularly tempting at the time. Get some half-decent eyepieces, and it's much better. I have even used a Lanthanum on it! The point is as a Newbie, you shouldn't have to correct what the 'scope maker overlooked, at any price.

I also bought another 6" telescope for my club, and side by side there is a big difference. But the best thing about hearing your experience, is that you are using it and learning more. In reality there is no such thing as a bad telescope, as anything is better than your own eyes.

It's one of the reasons we plan to use the 'scope in our observing sessions, as a comparison. The Optrons is what it is; a cheap telescope. Get a good one and it's OK, get a bad one and it not a pleasant experience for sure. If you don't know how to fix it, then that may put people off.

For a little more money I could have got something better, but expected the same on the cheap. My expectations were not realistic at the time.

My Barlow fell apart, so did the eyepieces, and I discovered another 2x lens in the focuser at the tube end. I think that's what gives it the 1400mm focal length. If you have the 750mm version that is much better. When Collimating the lens has to be unscrewed and taken out or it can't be aligned properly. Which version do you have?

Newtonians are simple, but it's the way that they are assembled and the materials used, along with the build of mount/tripod, that defines it's performance, and ultimately your enjoyment of you first telescope.

I'm glad you got sorted out and hope you find SGL useful as I do.

I'm still learning too. Never stops with astronomy!

Dave

[Grotemobile]

Hi Dave, the scope i have is the 1400mm.The problem was that the barlow in

the bottom of the tube was loose.So i took it out and gave it a clean,it was

really dirty. l all so bought 4 Adler VWA lenses,when i got the scope, & i think

this is why its not to bad .For my next scope i was looking at the TAL 200K,

on a EQ5 .I want a scope with a long F L ,this is a 10 .Celestron do the C8.

Do you think it is worth getting a powered mount ,theres more to go wrong.

Any suggestions i would be greatfull for .I dont mind going up to a Grand.I

dont want a GOTO mount ,just something simple, that i can cart around,and

is easy to use .That is why iv got a lot of use out of this one

Steve

do

[Whippy]

Hi Dave, the scope i have is the 1400mm.The problem was that the barlow in

the bottom of the tube was loose.So i took it out and gave it a clean,it was

really dirty. l all so bought 4 Adler VWA lenses,when i got the scope, & i think

this is why its not to bad .For my next scope i was looking at the TAL 200K,

on a EQ5 .I want a scope with a long F L ,this is a 10 .Celestron do the C8.

Do you think it is worth getting a powered mount ,theres more to go wrong.

Any suggestions i would be greatfull for .I dont mind going up to a Grand.I

dont want a GOTO mount ,just something simple, that i can cart around,and

is easy to use .That is why iv got a lot of use out of this one

Steve

The TAL 200K is an 8" scope. If you want the 10" model, that's the 250K. I had a quick peek through Daz's old 200K and what I saw looked pretty good to me. If you planning on getting one, I'd go for a HEQ5 mount over the EQ5 as they're a bit on the heavy side.

Tony..

[Woodsey65]

Hi Dave, the scope i have is the 1400mm.The problem was that the barlow in

the bottom of the tube was loose.So i took it out and gave it a clean,it was

really dirty. l all so bought 4 Adler VWA lenses,when i got the scope, & i think

this is why its not to bad .For my next scope i was looking at the TAL 200K,

on a EQ5 .I want a scope with a long F L ,this is a 10 .Celestron do the C8.

Do you think it is worth getting a powered mount ,theres more to go wrong.

Any suggestions i would be greatfull for .I dont mind going up to a Grand.I

dont want a GOTO mount ,just something simple, that i can cart around,and

is easy to use .That is why iv got a lot of use out of this one

Steve

The TAL 200K is an 8" scope. If you want the 10" model, that's the 250K. I had a quick peek through Daz's old 200K and what I saw looked pretty good to me. If you planning on getting one, I'd go for a HEQ5 mount over the EQ5 as they're a bit on the heavy side.

Tony..

Hi Tony,

The TAL 200K OTA enjoys a good reputation for £599 and the HEQ5 mount is indeed lovely. GOTO mounts like my Meade LXD75 are great to use and quite portable. The Celestron C8 SGT is ideal and we did a review of the CG-5 GT mount in our July edition of Look Up! ezine last month, which is the same mount that the C8 uses.

So the Question is; what kind of astronomy do you want to do...? Is it just planets are you looking to get into imaging (or at least have the option) at some point?

Dave

[Tiny]

I think the way people buy scopes for the first time will always mean a lot end up with bad scopes that seem cheap. The trouble is that people do their own thing and often don't ask for advice. I actually wrote a bit in the local village mag and offered advice if anyone was getting a scope for them or their relatives - complete with phone number. (Most people know us anyway.)

We never got a single query but I bet a few out there have brought scopes - who needs advice. On the web the problem is too much info. Idealy there should be a buying a (you name it) site for each product that you could go to and trust but the whole free for all web idea works againt this. (Having said that try typing in 'Buying a Telescope' - the result is instructive.)

[geoff_k]

I would tend to avoid E-bay for anything that expensive anyway. The real problem as for any beginner in any field is simple lack of knowledge. Sometimes you have to learn the hard way and not just with a first astronomical purchase.

Think of the sheer number of "what should I buy for my first scope" questions on this and other forums and the range of answers they get. Always well-intentioned and sensible suggestions, but often they must only add to the confusion for a newcomer. There is a bewildering range of kit out there and so many factors to consider such as price, portability, area of interest, so on and so on.

I only have one scope but often hanker after a second. I wouldn't consider myself a beginner in the hobby but I would confess to being just as uncertain as to what my choice should be as any beginner choosing their first telescope.

Geoff

[Jeff RV]

I would tend to avoid E-bay for anything that expensive anyway. The real problem as for any beginner in any field is simple lack of knowledge. Sometimes you have to learn the hard way and not just with a first astronomical purchase.

Think of the sheer number of "what should I buy for my first scope" questions on this and other forums and the range of answers they get. Always well-intentioned and sensible suggestions, but often they must only add to the confusion for a newcomer. There is a bewildering range of kit out there and so many factors to consider such as price, portability, area of interest, so on and so on.

I only have one scope but often hanker after a second. I wouldn't consider myself a beginner in the hobby but I would confess to being just as uncertain as to what my choice should be as any beginner choosing their first telescope.

Geoff

I'm with you on that Geoff, I have no trust in ebay (without prejudice) and yet my daughter uses it quite often and laughs at my concern.

Jeff.