E.Bay Scopes

[John]

If you are new to the hobby and are interested in buying a telescope it would be quite natural to include e.bay in the list of places you browse when looking for something suitable.

Having browsed all the 1000+ items that get listed on e.bay under "Telescope" a few times recently I was a bit alarmed to see that most (not all) of what is listed on e.bay is equipment that would almost certainly dissapoint a newcomer to the hobby, many made unrealistic claims of performance and mechanical excellence and many were also quite highly priced for what they are.

It leaves me wondering how many folk innocently buy an e.bay scope, quickly get frustrated by it's performance (or lack of it) and pack in the hobby without ever getting to try a decent beginners scope

That's not to say you cannot get some good telescope buys on e.bay from time to time, you can and I've had one or two myself, but if ever there was a place where "Caveat Emptor" (Buyer Beware) applies surely it's e.bay. E.bay is fine when you know exactly what you are looking for but otherwise it's still a minefield IMHO.

When I started out in astronomy there was no e.bay (no internet in fact !) but there was an equivilent which was buying a scope from a Department Store, so much so that the term "Department Store Scope" has found it's way into the astro vocabulary and is used even to this day. Maybe it's time it was replaced with the term "E.Bay Scope" !.

This is not a general rant against e.bay, I'm generally a great fan of it, it just reflects my opinion that in the astro equipment market of it there still seem to be many potential pitfalls.

Luckily there are a number of good Astro Equipment retailers around these days (there were very few when I started out) and they all stock equipment which will get a newcomer to the hobby off on the right track and at a reasonable price as well.

If in doubt about a particular purchase, ask questions on SGL BEFORE you click "Buy it now" - thats my advice

John

[Ant]

I couldn't agree more.

I quite like ebay, but I make sure that I have done my homework first and know what I want to buy - then I look on ebay (and others) for a good deal.

I agree reasearch first and ask lots of questions, then you can't go too wrong!

Ant

[barkis]

You raise a good point John.

What would be a great help to people in a quandry over buying a telescope, or any other piece of Astro equipment., is for them to immediately think of SGL as a place where they can get the help and advice they need. In other words, we have to become a household name througout the nation.

I think we are on the way to being that anyway.

[philsail1]

Good points John,

It's a pity your advice can't appear at the top of the telescope section of "e-bay" (I don't think they would allow it!)

Regards,

philsail1

P.S. Yes, I too think "SGL" is getting to be "THE" centre for excellent advice Barkis!

[SurfingNeil]

Hi John,

Very good point, I started to look for scopes in January after "a moment of clarity" sparked action in me to prsue an interest (which is rapidly becoming an obession :shock: ). Being from Cornwall being "careful" with money is in my DNA and therefore not knowing where to look I tried ebay and was very tempted. Luckly I had a real thrist for knoweldge and so looked up and found a local astonomy group (Callington Astronomy Group) which I have joined and hope to become a very active member. I have since bought a pre loved scope but the purchase was made with some knowledge of what to expect from a scope and it's limitations. I'm going on a bit I know but it's raining outside . I cannot recommend enought joining of a club and of course using this very powerful and friendly forum, even with cloudy skies and my wife fed up with watching astronomy programmes/dvd I can talk to like minded people.

Neil

[Astro_Baby]

I think its sad myself - I was looking at ebay last night and there were people trying to sell on what were horrible telescopes which thay had paid £300+ for. The selling decsriptions said 'only used once' etc which seemed to indicate someone had paid out some serious money and gotten frustrated.

When you think £300 would, wisely spent, get you a very good telescope for a beginner ( Lots of Sky-Watcher stuff for instance would fall into that ) and yet people will be put off by a 'cheap' scope on ebay.

Lots of people I think assume because its on ebay its a bargain especially when people say stuff like 'would cost £700 in the shops'.

Buyer beware is always good advice I think. There are some good bargains to be had - theres someone selling a TAL1 at the mo on there for whats a good price for a pretty decent scope I'd think.

I'd always be disinclined to shop for stuff like telescopes, cameras etc on ebay myself. Too many scams, too many rogues. I'd rather pay a bit more and know I am dealing with someone reputable.

[oohmygod831]

I couldnt agree more.

I made the mistake of buying my first ever scope from an Ebay store. The advert made out it was the bees knees and i was really excited when it arrived and i thought it looked good when i set ti up but i didnt know any better, anyhoo when i took it out to try and do some observing, the only thing i could actually see was the moon, and thats because is so big, anything else was just a blur.

Whenever i tried to focus on a star the vibration on the scope was so bad that the scope ended up pointing at a different part of the sky. If i was lucky enough to actually focus on anything i had to stand about a foot away from the scope because if i touched it at all, it would vibrate terribly.

However i think the worst problem was my lack of research and preparation, you see i (like many i suppose) had always enjoyed looking at the night sky and trying to find the constellations that i knew (which amounted to the Plough and Orion) so i thought i would get a scope and bought one from Ebay.

I almost lost all interest in the hobby when i stumbled across this forum (thank the stars) and did some reading. Following recommendations from other members on this forum i got a pair of binos and a book (Turn Left at Orion) and spent time just trying to learn the night sky. I have now purchased a good learner scope (Skywatcher 150) and the first time i used it i was absolutely blown away, could have been something to do with seeing Saturn but also that i knew where to look.

What i am trying to say is i dont think its worth just jumping in and buying a scope from Ebay without doing some research and learning the sky.

[John]

Thanks for the feedback folks - it looks like I have struck a chord here

What bothers me about e.bay is that some of the sellers there seem to be able to make all sorts of outrageous claims about what they are selling - claims that they would not probably be able to get away with any more in a normal retail environment - a couple of decades ago Tasco were accused of something similar and eventually cleaned their act up so now the information they provide in support of their products is a bit more realistic.

What would be interesting (but maybe impractical ) would be to have a mechanism for those that have had their fingers burned in this way to be able to provide real feedback, maybe anonomously, so that others don't repeat the same mistakes. I think most us will have all done something like this at some point but have written it off to experience and are perhaps reluctant to share our mistakes - I can think of one or two purchases that I've regretted with hindsight

A campaign for SGL perhaps - "warts and all" feedback on the less desireable equipment thats out there !.

John

[Woodsey65]

Hi,

This is a very interesting thread.

I bought an Optrons 150-1400 Reflector from eBay four years ago...

Horrible, it actually put me off because as much as I'd read reviews and things, nothing could tell me if it was any good. I just rebuilt it to something passable. Once I took it apart I found out why it was so bad to use. Build Quality was poor, Mirrors, plastic plossl etc. My next 'scope was a Skywatcher SkyMax 102, and yep it blew me away with the images of Saturn and Jupiter, then a LXD75 then the Megrez 72FD. Lovely.

But since starting my own group, and trying to do things on the cheap, I have had to wing it and buy a few telescopes on eBay, a Skywatcher 130/900 ( similar to astro_baby's) for £48 complete with drive, and also a 150P with EQ3-2 mount that's also complete for £82. Both are going to be used for observing sessions and a direct comparison to the cheap eBay 'scope such as the Optrons/Hi-Optics brand. I also bought an Celestron Explorascope 80 and 100 (actually, very good but handicapped with no finder, 1.2" only eyepeices, for it would harm sales of bigger 'scopes) and lots of other bits and pieces, about £700-800 over the past four years I guess. It's been mixed as an experience.

Armed with what I know now and searching around on SGL for what most beginner/intermediate astronomers are to looking buy first time, we now have six 'scopes that people can use to get an idea of what a good starter scope is...

I think it's an astronomy groups duty to offer this service, as buying a nasty telescope will turn people off from astronomy. Not all do though, pity...

Most people I feel would be best served by learning the night sky with a map and a good pair of 10x50 binos. It's easy to think that buying a telescope is the answer. Which I did, what a mistake!

That's why buying from a proper UK-based astronomy store has to be a good thing.

I've just bought stuff from the USA, good stuff, but that's been a real palaver!

I'm doing a story on that, but will be careful not to spark off an international incident! Couriers and Duty are the main problems to be honest.

Dave

[John]

Thanks for that feedback Dave

It sounds like you have now got valuable experience in separating the "wheat from the chaf" with regard to budget scopes which is dead useful for others.

There is a review of a scope similar to your Optrons on the Cloudynights web site - this one is branded Baytronix but it's essentially the same scope that is sold on e.bay under a variety of names:

http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=1105

Of course there may be happy owners of these scopes out there (the sellers do seem to have 1000's of positive feedbacks) in which case it would be good to hear from them as well

John

[peeceeTal2M]

Good points John,

It's a pity your advice can't appear at the top of the telescope section of "e-bay" (I don't think they would allow it!)

Regards,

philsail1

P.S. Yes, I too think "SGL" is getting to be "THE" centre for excellent advice Barkis!

I believe you can write and submit to ebay a review / guide on any subject for prospective buyers to read, i've seen some that even knock paypal and warn of some of their pitfalls so i'd assume that a guide /review on some of the poor quality telescopes sold on ebay would also be allowed! Worth a try.....

[ottUp]

I have bought (and sold) a fair share of name-brand equipment on eBay at good prices. But there is far more questionable equipment than good. The best advice for the beginner is the simplest: be skeptical - if it seems too good to be true, it's probably not true. Is it really likely that the advert claiming that $100 unit is as good as professional gear costing $thousands is true? If you pay a small price for equipment the seller properly describes as entry-level gear, you are probably getting a good deal. If you pay a small price for equipment the seller describes as professional-grade, you are probably being had.

Generally I advise people to decide what they would like to buy, and what would be a good price, outside of ebay - by looking in astronomy magazines, reputable online stores, and dedicated astronomy sales sites such as Astromart. Then, by all means check eBay to see if you can get a better price on the item in question. I find that, if patient, one can usually do 20% - 30% better than retail this way. It's also very important to decide, before entering an auction, what you're willing to pay. It's amazing how often you'll see someone get caught up in "auction fever" and pay nearly full retail price for used gear, just because they didn't want to lose the auction.

The other thing to warn people about is gear that seems to exist only to be sold on eBay. There are a number of brands of this nature, and by all reports they are uniformly of very poor quality. I often refer people to that excellent article by Jon Isaacs (referenced above), in which he buys an "ebay scope" to properly evaluate and see if it can be tuned into decent performance (it can't).

One easy rule of thumb is that any ad that claims high magnification (450x, 650x) is likely advertising junk. (In fact, ads that mention the word "magnification" or "power" at all should be considered suspect.)

- Richard

[Woodsey65]

Just read the review of the Baytronix, about a year after I bought mine.

That's nasty! Even for landfill.

Dave.

[Periscope]

My advice is stay clear of E-Bay altogether. That way you won't get ripped off!

Buy from a reputable astronomy store and shop around before you buy. I saved over £45 on my Explorer 200P by looking for the cheapest deal.

Geoff

[PaulG]

If you are new to the hobby and are interested in buying a telescope it would be quite natural to include e.bay in the list of places you browse when looking for something suitable.

Snip.........

John

Very true John, exactly what I did.

The problem is Astronomy shops are few and far between, here in Nottingham the nearest shop to me is 30 miles away near Sheffield and they don't stock a full range of scopes. So I started looking at Ebay so I could pick up a telescope locally.

I trawled the internet for information and with my head spinning I jumped on the astronomical merry go round and bought an Ebay £30 bargain, a boxed Celestron 70/900 refractor used only a few times.

I got lucky with my first entry level choice but even with a little knowledge things don't always pan out the way you would like. I have now only recently upgraded to a Skymax 127 Mak, and on Jupiter the refractor shades the Mak for detail and contrast. The Mak cost over 6 times the price of the refractor, so even after months of advice and deliberation telescopes can disappoint.

Trouble is it's almost imposible to try before you buy and this is the main problem for anybody buying equipment, novice or experienced. If we all knew what would would end up with before laying out sometimes a considerable amount of cash, it would be alot better for the bank balance.

I suppose Astro buy & sell would be a very quite place.

I agree that Ebay to the uninformed is not a good place to be.

Paul

[scotastro]

Regrettably, a large number of scope are bought as presents by people who know nothing about them or where to go for information. An internet search is more likely to land them on Ebay than SGL.

When good quality, low cost scopes from Skywatcher, etc are easy to get it is sad that there are still too many pricey bad scopes in catalogues (and shops) that catch the attention of the uninitiated.

Mike

An off topic add-on. - PaulG I'm surprised a 70mm refractor outguns a Mak127. Are you sure it's properly collimated? I like lots of people on SGL rate the Mak highly.

[Doc]

Hi,

I bought an Optrons 150-1400 Reflector from eBay four years ago...

Couldn't agree more with all of above.

I've looked through one of these telescopes and if I had been a complete beginner in Astronomy it would have definetly put me off.

E-bay is great for a bargain and good named telescopes do appear I bought my Meade 16" LB from e-bay, just stay clear of cheap unknown brands.

[davekermito]

I bought my scope off ebay - a Celestron 6SE OTA for a marvellous price. The seller was happy for me to inspect and test the scope prior to handing over any cash and I got quite a steal.

But generally speaking if you want to be ripped off by a scope that advertises itself as a 1000x magnification 60mm scope then you can't go wrong with ebay!

I have used ebay to sell 'cheaper' gear like the basic plossls EPs and sundry diagonals/RDFs etc, but if I ever feel the need to offload and of my more 'professional' kit, it would always be advertised on somwhere like here.

I don't blame the vendors if they can get an inflated price for a sub-standard scope, it's down to the buyer to do his or her research first.

[Woodsey65]

Yep,

It's those 525x from AstroMegaStar 2000 60mm OTA in light weight plastic OTA for superior portability, EP Lenses! (expanded polystyrene..) the sort that do the damage. Even though they may be telescopes it's the expectation that they will do a fair job.

This requires education from every single club in the UK to say with one voice, do not buy these 'scopes. UK Retailers should do the same. Is UK amateur astronomy growing or shrinking? That's the bigger picture, these toy scopes, don't help that's true, and eBay is based on price not quality.

Promoting these plastic telescopes to kids helps no-one. Astronomy is a complex subject, and too much focus I feel is spent on bringing kids into astronomy.

Let's buy little Johnny a telescope this week... 30 quid? Ooh, I know... eBay!

Educate and involve the parents first, get them to buy decent scopes, then involve their kids. It's why we do not allow under 18's into our group other than open days.

But then how can astronomy compete with an XBox?

My PS3 is better, or maybe Nintendo should do a Wii with a telescope attached.

'Liittle Wii Scope'?

;-)

Dave...

[PaulG]

An off topic add-on. - PaulG I'm surprised a 70mm refractor outguns a Mak127. Are you sure it's properly collimated? I like lots of people on SGL rate the Mak highly.

Well when I say "shades it", it is marginal hair splitting but the refractor doe's look better.

It's early days yet but this is what I have experienced so far

http://stargazerslounge.com/index.php/topic,29399.0.html

The Moon will be the next test.

Paul

[Neon]

I asked my mates on a gaming forum if they knew anything about 'scopes as there was a nice looking Tasco on eBay (525x mag!) for only £70 quid! Thankfully there were a couple of guys there who knew a bit about astronomy and pointed me towards Patrick Moore's article on choosing a 'scope. Although I spent my money on some semi decent binoculars (also on eBay) which weren't culminated, but they were a bit of a bargain.

My mate brought his daughter a telescope for christmas (he wanted to use it himself really) and they paid about £80. Comparing it to my Sentinel purely from an optical POV there's no competition, like putting a set of plastic speakers next to a couple of B&W floor standers. But people just go to whom they feel comfortable with, be it eBay, Jessops or even Argos, without doing any real research.

Personally I think that what puts off a lot of people with astronomy is the gulf between perception and reality. You can't point your 'scope at Altair and expect to see a couple of planets circling it :?

[beamer3.6m]

Ebay already has a guide to buying a decent scope on it to be fair to be ebay.

Plus, I would say that if you are new to this hobby, or if you are buying for someone else, then having to sign up to a forum can be a real pain, especially in today's world of identity theft.

You sign up, get an email, log into the email, then go back to the forum then sign in then, and unlike here, get met with derision and blah answers that just promote people's own self importance.

I'm sure we have all experienced some forums where a question says for example 'I would like to by my son a telescope but have no idea what to choose...' with the answer being 'I would not recommend anything less than the Explorer 300 on an EQ6 Pro...'

What I am trying to say is that even astronomy sites sometimes give duff information so you cannot blame a parent for example going into Argos on a Saturday and paying £80.00 for a scope.

Plus there are many more Argos' than astronomy shops, I know in Hampshire there is only 1 astronomy shop I believe and Hampshire is a big place, plus the shop was not open on a Saturday when I called them - wooohoo!

So whilst I am not advocating the purchase of dodgy scopes from ebay I consider that the astronomy community can do more to help.

Something I find really annoying personally is when magazines tell me something is reasonably priced and then tell me it is £4,000.00. I recall this in a recent review in Sky at Night I think for some solar scope or something. It gave the impression that to view the sun you need to spend this much - rubbish.

Anywhoo, thats my 2 penneth worth, you may disagree.

[beamer3.6m]

I just wanted to add that whilst I appreciate that a cheap scope will give poor views I consider that even the views through a decent scope are somewhat dissapppointing when you first see them.

Lets ignore Saturn and the moon but D.S.O's are distinctly unexciting at times (I appreciate that you will all shout M42 at this point, but even this is not what you see on TV, the internet or in books and magazines). M57 (Ring Nebula) it looks like a Polo mint if you look at with averted vision - unlikely to blow away a child of 12 for example, M32 is a large smudge which looks better the longer you stare at it, again patience is not a 12 year old's strong point.

I think a lot of stuff gets bought and sold not because it is rubbish quality but because people's perception of what you can actually see is not clearly explained by anyone.

For example, even on here we do not have a section of photos which actually show you what the item will look like, so person comes on here with no knowledge and goes to the images section and see's some fantastic shots. Goes home, buys a scope (decent or not) and see's nothing like it through the scope.

Astronomy is a hobby which takes time and patience and an appreciation of what you are looking at.

Again, just another 2 penneth worth.

[Neon]

I'm sure we have all experienced some forums where a question says for example 'I would like to by my son a telescope but have no idea what to choose...' with the answer being 'I would not recommend anything less than the Explorer 300 on an EQ6 Pro...'

What I am trying to say is that even astronomy sites sometimes give duff information so you cannot blame a parent for example going into Argos on a Saturday and paying £80.00 for a scope.

I agree that like any specialist hobby, people can tend to be quite snobby about their approach to certain to how and what people should purchase and do. Be it Hi Fi's, mountain bikes, fishing or anything that requires specialist equipment there'll always be people who harp on about the equivalent of 'Department Store Scopes' and how they wouldn't touch them.

Trouble is that you miss out on so much with such equipment. My mate's £80 scope was fine for seeing the blurry shape of Saturn or the moon, but pointing out nebulas was very hit and miss and a bit of a waste of time. If you've got a 70mm refractor that's only good for looking at a couple of things in the night sky then it's not much cop. Now my mate's got himself a SkyWatcher 102 refractor, but only because he had the option to look through my 'scope and see the potential. It also didn't help that the box the 70mm came in was plastered with pictures of Jupiter and Saturn that looked like they'd been taken from the film 2010!

Having said that, my friend who brought the 'scope did spend £200 on fishing equipment back in 2001, after deciding it was his new hobby. He then failed to catch any fish and got bored, selling his equipment in the local paper for less than half of what he'd brought it for :shock:

So keep your eyes out for a used Alt-Az Skywatcher Skytravel on eBay

[John]

I think a lot of stuff gets bought and sold not because it is rubbish quality but because people's perception of what you can actually see is not clearly explained by anyone.

Good points beamer3.6m . When Tasco were under fire a few years ago for exaggerating the true capabilities of their scopes part of the criticism was that the pictues on the scope boxes bore no resemblence to what you can actually see through the scope.

The trouble is if you covered the boxes with images of what things really look like through a scope then sales might drop off rather sharply .....

John