Beginners, monochrome is fastest and easiest!

[ollypenrice]

3 minutes ago, souls33k3r said:

lol, thought i should lighten up the mood in the room

And you did!

Olly

[souls33k3r]

Chipping in my few bits at this topic, i am eyeing up on ASI1600 or QHY9 CCD camera, both mono. It's just not practically good to be using OSC in light polluted London

Haven't made up my mind yet, still need to figure out if i should go for the 5 POS FW or the 7 ... decisions, decisions

[ChrisLX200]

1 hour ago, souls33k3r said:

Chipping in my few bits at this topic, i am eyeing up on ASI1600 or QHY9 CCD camera, both mono. It's just not practically good to be using OSC in light polluted London

Haven't made up my mind yet, still need to figure out if i should go for the 5 POS FW or the 7 ... decisions, decisions

You need 7-pos I would think. In London you'll be interested in doing narrow-band due to LP, but you'll still want the RGB filters in there. That would be my own thinking anyway.

ChrisH

[StuartJPP]

I can't disagree with Olly regarding speed and "best" but a clarification of "beginner" is needed.

Unless you are sure that you want to pursue this crazy hobby long term, investing in loads of kit upfront will kill it off for many before they even start.

A DSLR on a cheap mount is how I started. My initial investment was £250 for a 2nd hand AstroTrac since I already owned all the other bits such as cameras, tripods, heads etc.

Would I have invested in a dedicated mount, mono CCD, filter wheel, filters, laptop, etc? I seriously doubt it.

I still refuse to go mono...mostly because I am stubborn...and because if I calculate how much each image costs me my eyes water, so purchasing even more kit will only increase the cost per image...

What I strive for is to try and be best in my class, or at least better my previous attempts. Still a long way to go and there a loads of targets out there...

I may change my stance one day but for now I ain't budging

 

[DaveS]

I might consider a 8 position wheel, LRGB [SII], [NII], HII, [OIII].

OTOH a 5 poition wheel might do, swapping between LRGB,HII and L, [SII], [NII], HII, [OIII]. In the latter case L is used as a finder filter.

[John78]

So ready for its first light and my inaugural mono image is - el cheapo...

£30 200mm F4 SMC takumar lens

£3.40 M42x1 -> M42x0.75 adapter

£77 ZWO Manual filter wheel

£77 ZWO RGB filter set

£179 ASI120MM camera

It'll be going unguided on an EQ5 and with the small sensor M33 would be framed nicely, so let's see how mono goes and upgrade from the beginning...

 

[tomato]

A great thread!

When moving up from a DSLR, my first choice was mono but I ended up with OSC because I didn't have the patience to wait for the right cooled mono CCD to come up on the second hand market. 

However, I am enjoying using it under iffy UK skies, it is way more sensitive than my DSLR and when the clouds roll in or I have to call it a night because I have work the next day, I know I will get some kind of complete colour image from the subs taken. My biggest gripe is the small FOV  but that's independent of mono or OSC more a function of the credit card balance. ?

[Helen]

23 minutes ago, tomato said:

A great thread!

When moving up from a DSLR, my first choice was mono but I ended up with OSC because I didn't have the patience to wait for the right cooled mono CCD to come up on the second hand market. 

However, I am enjoying using it under iffy UK skies, it is way more sensitive than my DSLR and when the clouds roll in or I have to call it a night because I have work the next day, I know I will get some kind of complete colour image from the subs taken. My biggest gripe is the small FOV  but that's independent of mono or OSC more a function of the credit card balance. ?

Double like for this   Its all about having fun, however you do it 

[Knight of Clear Skies]

1 hour ago, John78 said:

So ready for its first light and my inaugural mono image is - el cheapo...

£30 200mm F4 SMC takumar lens

£3.40 M42x1 -> M42x0.75 adapter

£77 ZWO Manual filter wheel

£77 ZWO RGB filter set

£179 ASI120MM camera

...

It'll be going unguided on an EQ5 and with the small sensor M33 would be framed nicely, so let's see how mono goes and upgrade from the beginning...

 

Interesting rig, I look forward to seeing what you get from it.

[Ouroboros]

I hear what the mono-ists are saying. I even believe them.  But there's still a but.....

What stops me from taking the plunge with a mono CCD are my concerns about having to set up from scratch each time. Each and every time I set up to astro image it is  a unique adventure, and somewhat like building a house of cards.  Any one of the many bits of kit might and sometimes does fall over to scupper the evening, not to mention fickle skies. A mono CCD with filter wheel and possibly an OFA guider adds additional complexity that I fear might be a technological step too far.  Or are my concerns unfounded? Are there mono astro imagers out there, who set up and tear down, who can reassure me it's not much more difficult than doing so with a DSLR. 

[RayD]

6 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

I hear what the mono-ists are saying. I even believe them.  But there's still a but.....

What stops me from taking the plunge with a mono CCD are my concerns about having to set up from scratch each time. Each and every time I set up to astro image it is  a unique adventure, and somewhat like building a house of cards.  Any one of the many bits of kit might and sometimes does fall over to scupper the evening, not to mention fickle skies. A mono CCD with filter wheel and possibly an OFA guider adds additional complexity that I fear might be a technological step too far.  Or are my concerns unfounded? Are there mono astro imagers out there, who set up and tear down, who can reassure me it's not much more difficult than doing so with a DSLR. 

I do.  I have my filter wheel and camera all spaced and ready to just screw on, and this then just plugs in to my power supply and mini PC.

The filter wheel is the only addition, and in reality once the spacing is sorted it's not a big deal 

[Ouroboros]

7 hours ago, RayD said:

I do.  I have my filter wheel and camera all spaced and ready to just screw on, and this then just plugs in to my power supply and mini PC.

The filter wheel is the only addition, and in reality once the spacing is sorted it's not a big deal 

That's very encouraging to hear. I guess you've got some extra cables over just using a DSLR. Two power cables, one each for CCD camera and filter wheel, and a USB cable for the wheel. A single software application presumably allows control of the camera, filter wheel and image transfer to the PC. Any other additional kit? 

[Martin Meredith]

I set up every time too but I keep the filter wheel and camera on the scope while carrying the scope outside and mounting it. It then comes off while I collimate and straight back on as a single unit. This is great as the sensor is never exposed to dust. It isn't any more hassle with or without the filter wheel to be honest. The camera and filter wheel cables are tied together, that's all. This is the 7-position SX wheel. If anything I'd like more slots.

Martin

[ollypenrice]

9 hours ago, Ouroboros said:

I hear what the mono-ists are saying. I even believe them.  But there's still a but.....

What stops me from taking the plunge with a mono CCD are my concerns about having to set up from scratch each time. Each and every time I set up to astro image it is  a unique adventure, and somewhat like building a house of cards.  Any one of the many bits of kit might and sometimes does fall over to scupper the evening, not to mention fickle skies. A mono CCD with filter wheel and possibly an OFA guider adds additional complexity that I fear might be a technological step too far.  Or are my concerns unfounded? Are there mono astro imagers out there, who set up and tear down, who can reassure me it's not much more difficult than doing so with a DSLR. 

Your fears woud be justified if using an electric filterwheel. Occasionally these act the goat by not being recognized, etc. They are also expensive and add cables to a situation not inherently short on cables at the best of time... Their only contribution to a picture is convenience in its capture. They add nothing to the quality of the image itself. Nothing will go wrong with a manual wheel (he said, knowing that someone will appear and say that he cut off his finger with one!!!)

Olly

[Knight of Clear Skies]

17 hours ago, AKB said:

Well this piqued my interest, and then I thought: "surely this very narrow-band stuff will mean much longer exposures?" which would bring all sorts of woes like tracking, guiding, meridian flip, ...

...is that true? 

I think Olly means easier in terms of processing, not data capture. The easiest way to go about the latter is with a DSLR and wide angle lens, but unless they have dark skies colour balance and gradient removal can be a challenge for beginners.

[ollypenrice]

30 minutes ago, Knight of Clear Skies said:

I think Olly means easier in terms of processing, not data capture. The easiest way to go about the latter is with a DSLR and wide angle lens, but unless they have dark skies colour balance and gradient removal can be a challenge for beginners.

Yes, ease of processing is one of the things I think advanageous in mono imaging.

Well it looks as if I'm going to have to try presenting a one hour mono camera image since I haven't carried the day with two hours! I'll be back...

lly

[DaveS]

Back when I was setting up each night I had the filter wheel and guider plugged into the USB hub on the Trius, which powered both. By using 'fracs I could avoid having to collimate each night, and by marking the balance point I didn't have to re-balance. Actually, even when I used a 130P-DS I didn't have to collimate each night.

So I had two USB cables going to the mount, and two power cables. Not a major tangle by any means.

I'm still a 'frac-y type with no inclination to go down the mirror route for now.

[cosmojaydee]

I live in a light polluted part of the UK so for me mono imaging is more rewarding than struggling with rgb. What I mean by that is I only have to worry about HA and or L ,   I dont have to wait for the second night (when ever that may be) to capture rgb , I dont have a filter wheel , the only filter I do have IS an HA , the processing of HA and or L is a doddle ,calibrate, stack ,quick stretch , adjust contrast and done, my aim is not to create a masterpiece, but self gratification to say yes I photographed this 

[RayD]

4 hours ago, Ouroboros said:

That's very encouraging to hear. I guess you've got some extra cables over just using a DSLR. Two power cables, one each for CCD camera and filter wheel, and a USB cable for the wheel. A single software application presumably allows control of the camera, filter wheel and image transfer to the PC. Any other additional kit? 

I actually only have a single power cable up to the focuser point on my mount and then a Y splitter for the camera and FW.  One USB for each.

As Olly says it is a weak point, but once you have used software such as Maxim (I use SG Pro) then you appreciate the convenience of setting up a session from indoors and not having to go out to the mount to change the filter position, albeit it's not a huge chore.

The power cabling really isn't a big deal if you do what I have now, which is buy a 50m drum of cable and 20 cable ends, and then make my own up to the exact length I want.  It just lets you tidy things up a bit.

[Knight of Clear Skies]

40 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

Well it looks as if I'm going to have to try presenting a one hour mono camera image since I haven't carried the day with two hours! I'll be back...

Ah, but does that hour include re-assembling your rig from scratch? That's the only option for many beginners. This Rosette really isn't great, but it's 10 minutes of data:

A bit of wispy cloud went into the stack but all hail sigma clipping. Including setup time, polar alignment, focus and framing it's perhaps a 25 minute image. Unless you're Benny Hill you'll have trouble matching that with your rig.

Your points are well made but perhaps only really relevant to a subset of beginners. I think it's interesting how much interest the alt-az challenge thread has received.

[ollypenrice]

4 hours ago, Knight of Clear Skies said:

Ah, but does that hour include re-assembling your rig from scratch? That's the only option for many beginners. This Rosette really isn't great, but it's 10 minutes of data:

A bit of wispy cloud went into the stack but all hail sigma clipping. Including setup time, polar alignment, focus and framing it's perhaps a 25 minute image. Unless you're Benny Hill you'll have trouble matching that with your rig.

Your points are well made but perhaps only really relevant to a subset of beginners. I think it's interesting how much interest the alt-az challenge thread has received.

Very good! I think it's fair to say that 'beginner' is a term that covers quite a spectrum of people.

Olly

[Knight of Clear Skies]

1 minute ago, ollypenrice said:

Very good! I think it's fair to say that 'beginner' is a term that covers quite a spectrum of people.

Olly

Yes, absolutely.

[Ouroboros]

10 hours ago, RayD said:

I actually only have a single power cable up to the focuser point on my mount and then a Y splitter for the camera and FW.  One USB for each.

As Olly says it is a weak point, but once you have used software such as Maxim (I use SG Pro) then you appreciate the convenience of setting up a session from indoors and not having to go out to the mount to change the filter position, albeit it's not a huge chore.

The power cabling really isn't a big deal if you do what I have now, which is buy a 50m drum of cable and 20 cable ends, and then make my own up to the exact length I want.  It just lets you tidy things up a bit.

I think this would work for me too. I work out of my warm-ish room (the shed) only a few metres from my telescope. Running a single multi-purpose power lead sounds a good idea. What power supply do you use?  I imagine the one that comes with the camera will drive the FW too. Is that right? 

[RayD]

1 hour ago, Ouroboros said:

I think this would work for me too. I work out of my warm-ish room (the shed) only a few metres from my telescope. Running a single multi-purpose power lead sounds a good idea. What power supply do you use?  I imagine the one that comes with the camera will drive the FW too. Is that right? 

I suspect it would be fine as most FW's are very low power (300ma or so), and only run for short periods.  I actually use a linear bench supply, so it's not an issue at all.

[Sanity3d]

As a beginner myself i image using a dslr and also mono ,for a beginner  i find using a dslr is far easier in setting up, imaging and stacking than mono.Using a mono with a FW you have take your L,s then a set of RGB's  refocusing after each filter change then take your darks then your flats for each filter, align and stack each set seprately before u get a coloured image, OSC is simpler take your subs, flats etc and align and stack bingo.

The quality of the data maybe better using mono but the effort using a dslr against a mono is simpler and for a begnner mono will be daunting and frustrating as i found out and still do especially when clouds roll in in the middel of a lrgb set then you have to wait days till its clear again with OSC at least you have a coloued image.

just my 2cents worth

Toni