ES 14mm Water Proofed (82º) or TV 14mm Delos (72º) ?

[milkyjoe]

Hi,

i was wondering how these 2 eyepieces compare, obviously the TV is a house-hold name and oozes quality, but I've heard good things about ES also.  The TV has better eye relief compared to the ES at 20mm and 15mm respectively, but there is quite a big price difference between the 2 of them!

I am leaning towards the TV what with its better eye relief :-D

Thanks.

Rick.

[Daniel-K]

Hi Rick ive had quite a few of the Delos range from TV and i found the 14mm to be the "weakest link" if your going to get a delos id go for the 12 or 10 the 17.3mm is by far the best out of them all though  BTW id always go for TV over ES

[Damo636]

Hi Rick

This is purely subjective opinion and I'm sure others will disagree, but for me having owned the 14mm Delos, & currently the 14mm ES100°, would pick the ES every time. It's not that there's anything wrong with the Delos, quite the contrary, it's practically perfect optically, but for me totally lacked the "wow" factor of the 100° eyepiece at this focal length. Now for a shocker! I actually replaced my 13mm Ethos with the 14mm ES100° recently. After approx a month of comparisons, I found it optically on par with its much more expensive counterpart so decided to cash in on the Ethos (yep, no brand loyalty here!) Anyway, my advise is this. If at all possible, try before you buy in this case. Both are optically superb, and I doubt you'd be disappointed with either, but just bear in mind, a 100° eyepiece is a very different viewing experience to a 70°. Good luck with your decision.

Edit: Just noticed the title of the thread reads ES "82°" so feel free to ignore all the above, doh!

[Mark in Macc]

Have to agree, the 100 deg experience is something special. I've stopped trying to spot the field stop, it's irrelevant. My 14 or 20 mm ES 100 deg eyepieces won't be up for sale anytime soon.

[Liquid360]

I don't actually own an ES EP. I own a couple TV ethos', but have since peered through those of others. IMO it depends what scope you're using, but unless it's a high end frac, I'd save the cash and go with ES. You can still find them online at the summer sale price. $299US for a 21mm 100deg EP just can't be beat. Spend a little more for the 100deg. It's worth it.

[milkyjoe]

Thank you for your replies. I only own a few meade 3000 plossls at the moment so I think es or tv is going to give me a better viewing experience than what I have now, I suppose with the tv, if I don't like it I can always resell it as they hold their value well, not sure about es?? what is the "default" size ep for planet/moon viewing? ;-) thanks

[Charic]

Thank you for your replies. I only own a few meade 3000 plossls at the moment so I think es or tv is going to give me a better viewing experience than what I have now, I suppose with the tv, if I don't like it I can always resell it as they hold their value well, not sure about es?? what is the "default" size ep for planet/moon viewing? ;-) thanks

Thats not good business ethics!

What's really wrong with the Meade 3000's?

Your eyepiece only magnifies the image produced by the telescope to allow you to see that image. If the  telescope image isn't up to  scratch  then the magnified image is similar, no matter whether its a Skywatcher or TV EP, and  finally  what your own eyes perceive as good from that magnified image?  Spending big bucks/£'s on a Televue means diddly if  your own setup is not perfect . I honestly don't think, in my case,  a Televue would give me any better result than my present EP's, mainly due to my own eyesight problems. At least when buying my BST's I only lost about £2  to cover the return postage, I exchanged one EP, and I returned the TMB 6mm ?

Often , more often, and frequently we tell everyone to try before they buy. That makes sense. Your Televue EP's  will last a lifetime, or so they say. But If TeleVue are so perfect,  do you have the perfect  telescope to match, you'll be forever changing telescopes to find out?

Whatever your decision, try first if possible, choose wisely.

[John]

I feel that the eyepiece is half the optical system so thats why I've invested in the best ones I can afford over the years. Tele Vue, whether their plossls or the more expensive and complexe ones have always given me the confidence that I'm seeing everything that the scope and the conditions will allow. The next bit is up to my skill as an observer which is probably the weakest link in the chain !

Pentax eyepieces are also in this category for me as are, with lower price tags, Baader GO's, Astro Hutech orthos, Fujiyama orthos, Baader Classics orthos and lately the Vixen SLV's. They will benefit any scope they are used in - even my old Taso refractor produces great images with a Tele Vue plossl in the drawtube . Its still a 60mm scope though .....

Your Meade 3000's, as I've posted before, are also pretty good - I've owned and used a number of the Japanese made ones. The only issues that let them down slightly are the normal plossl characterisitcs of tight eye relief in the shorter focal lengths (orhos have this too though) and that the edges of the lenses in the 3000 series were not blackened so you can get a little more light scatter around bright objects. No eyepiece is going to be a massive step up from them in all honesty. Again I think I've said this before

If you want a wider field of view  or longer eye relief then another eyepiece type will be needed as the 3000's don't do this. But otherwise they won't be hurting the optical performance of your scope much at all.

As the well used saying goes though "your mileage may vary"

[milkyjoe]

Charic: my meade 3000 plossls are great, don't get me wrong, they took me a long time to aquire as they don't come up for sale that often.  What I meant was I want an ep with a bigger fov, I.e. an es or tv would be a good candidate.  I do wish I hadn't sold my bgo's though :-(

The eye relief on the es is borderline at 15mm, but seems just as good as the tv's.

[Daniel-K]

if ER is a concern get a 12mm t4 nagler, i got one of ebay for a stonkingly good price £142!!  the delos are kings for ER though and VERY comfortable to use 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TELE-VUE-DELOS-EYEPIECE-12-MM-/271625640396?pt=UK_Telescope_Eyepieces&hash=item3f3e2659cc you wont loose much on this if you dont like it 

[gooseholla]

For me it would come down to price, If buying new I'd be going ES 82. However, if you can find a good secondhand deal on a Televue, that kind of changes the game. For  example, I paid just £80 for a Nagler T5 20mm, because there was a slight bit of damage to the coating on the top lens. It doesn't affect anything however, and I love it. Looking on ebay, there are some Naglers for around the price of the ES 82, so may be worth considering also.

[Charic]

Charic: my meade 3000 plossls are great, don't get me wrong, they took me a long time to aquire as they don't come up for sale that often.  What I meant was I want an ep with a bigger fov, I.e. an es or tv would be a good candidate.  I do wish I hadn't sold my bgo's though :-(

The eye relief on the es is borderline at 15mm, but seems just as good as the tv's.

........I started out with the intention of buying  into Meade , but couldn't get the JAPAN versions, so on the advice of SGL members,  I bought into the Starguiders, and to this day, have no regrets. Fact  is, I'm only trying to save you some money, yet I've never tested any other EPs, let alone the Televue EP's. But as  John points  out TeleVue are regarded as the best, and if you have the best, then maybe  you  will feel  that whatever the scope offers, you shouldn't be able to get  any better with any other EP? Its what you feel comfortable with, I suppose, and If you have the funds, then go ahead. I just wonder having EP's that can cost twice as much as the telescope and more can really improve that telescope, when there are just as many other EP's that can give as great a result at  a much lower cost. I have heard talk of folk testing some expensive EPs, and a BST was slipped into the equation. The BST got a very good report, despite its low cost? maybe one day I`ll see the light and go for something else, but nothing can persuade me just yet. I had the option to buy ANY telescope, ANY eyepiece since I started  last Year, but I think I have chosen wisely for my  intended use and for where I live. Having the most expensive is surely a great talking point, but would my views have been starkly different from my present site with other EP's and telescope, I doubt it?

[russ.will]

My 2p; I went the other way - From ES82 to Delos. 

The ES82 are a more up close and personal viewing experience than the Delos and perhaps a bit more so than the raw ER figures would have you believe - you effectively loose another 2-3mm due to the recessed eye lens. And you do need to get right in there to access the outer reaches of the 82deg AFOV. For me, finding this a bit tiring over prolonged examination of a subject, I found they were approximating to a 70deg FOV in actual use.

The Delos is touch sharper in the center, but the gap in performance increases the further off axis you get. I don't want to overstate this as a night and day difference, but it's enough for me let a subject drift right through the FOV before nudging the Dob, whereas I'd be nudging before the ES gets to the same 70deg point of the FOV.

I would also add that the ES82s were just a hint warmer in tone, slightly compressing the subtler contrast of bands on Jupiter as a for instance. It could just be me, but the moon also seemed to display a wider range of greys-with-a-hint-of too.

In value for money terms, I think it's ES all the way, simply because you can pick up two ES82s for the price of one Delos. For someone sitting there with few or old EPs, then there's a lot to be said for the increased rate you can accrue ES82s. You can rest assured that you are well into the top 95% of performers and exponential curve that is the law of diminishing returns, really kicks in after this point. On the flip side, the Delos is a better EP in all respects bar the missing 10deg FOV and if you aren't fussed about that omission, you will struggle to find anything better.

Russell

[Daniel-K]

you cant beat televue for QC how many times have you heard TV letting one slip through? never, ive never heard of anyone buying a duff telvevue. id rather give my money to the people who done the research rather than clone  a competitors.

[russ.will]

I take it all of your mass built cars have been Ford?

Russell

[Moonshane]

at the risk of repeating myself, come to Peak Star Party and try some LOL

you'd not regret it.

[milkyjoe]

I will most probably be coming moonshane :-D

[Moonshane]

you'll really enjoy it. don't spend before then and it may even save you some cash. you'll be welcome to try any of my eyepieces.

[milkyjoe]

Thank you.

[Ruud]

Thank you for your replies. I only own a few meade 3000 plossls at the moment so I think es or tv is going to give me a better viewing experience than what I have now, I suppose with the tv, if I don't like it I can always resell it as they hold their value well, not sure about es?? what is the "default" size ep for planet/moon viewing? ;-) thanks

An exit pupil of 0.5 to 1 mm is recommended for planets. When the exit pupil gets below 0.5 mm the image gets too dim and blurry. 

You calculate the exit pupil like this:  (Eyepiece focal length in mm) / (Telescope focal ratio) = Exit Pupil.

Example: A 3 mm eyepiece on an F/6 telescope gives an exit pupil of 3/6 = 0.5 mm  (quite dim, but usable on the Moon)

               A 6 mm eyepiece on an F/6 telescope gives an exit pupil of 6/6 = 1 mm     (probably most people's choice for planets and the Moon)

Many prefer exit pupils between 0.5 and 2 mm for planets and small DSOs, exit pupils between 2 and 3.5 mm for general deep space, and between 3.5 and 5 mm for rich, wide views.

At 0.5 mm you reach your telescope's maximum magnification. Beyond 5 mm the images become very bright and light pollution becomes obvious.

-----

The eye relief of the 11mm ES 82° is much too tight for me. My lashes touch the glass if I want to see the 82° field. 

I returned it and got a 12mm Delos instead. On my F/5 it is a good deep space eyepiece (ExP=2.4mm) and on my F/10 it is a planetary eyepiece (ExP=1.2mm). It's a very nice eyepiece. Perfect, as far as I can tell.

[bingevader]

 id rather give my money to the people who done the research rather than clone  a competitors.

To read this, you'd think that TV invented every EP out there and that everything else is merely some poor clone! 

They may have taken some designs and improved them greatly, they certainly didn't invent them all.

I'm sure Georg would be a bit miffed at being called the inventor of a clone, I hadn't realised TV had been around that long.

The Meade and ES EPs are supposedly quite similar, my 14mm Meade is very good indeed and from my site with a similar 8" 'scope, does seem to be a good focal length to have for DSOs in particular.

If the 14mm ES is comparable, I'm sure it would be a fine EP.

But of cause, if you have the money, you're unlikely to get much better than the TV, that goes without saying.

[John]

Quote from "The Backyard Astronomers Guide" by Terence Dickinson and Alan Dyer:

"Al Nagler has introduced more innovations in telescope eyepiece design than anyone else in the history of amateur astronomy."

Meade, ES and others have come along and produced great clones of his work though, and priced them somewhat lower. You pays your money and makes your choice

ES has come up with some more innovative designs recently though but it's interesting that those are somewhat more expensive.

[Moonshane]

At the sort of level we are talking about you cannot really make a big mistake unless you buy new and then don't get on with it.

[Liquid360]

Not to hijack this thread, but has anybody peered through the ES 30mm 3in EP? Very curious, but not $1300 curious.

[bingevader]

Quote from TV website: PLOSSLS The cornerstone of Tele Vue's reputation. 

Georg Simon (or Simon Georg depending on where you look) Plossl's design was back in 1860.

TV have come along and produced great clones of his work though, and priced them somewhat Higher. You pays your money and makes your choice