Brunnings (Holborn) Ltd Mirror - Anymore info

[SnakeyJ]

I've just acquired a rather tired but fundamentally intact Fullerscopes 6" F8 reflector with MK.111 mount.      This appears to be an earlier example, supplied with optics by Brunnings of Holborn - the mirror is marked on the reverse, though much of the writing has faded.

Although the existing coatings are shot, I shall probably send this away to Galvoptics. but wanted to get see if anyone can shed some more light on the history and probably quality.     Not sure if this is plate glass or pyrex, it appears neutrally coloured with no obvious tint - there are a few chips on the back rim at 3 o'clock which might testify to brittleness.

The white rectangular sticker appears to be written in ball pen, with something like 'MD / 49' on the top line and perhaps Kirkwood on the bottom line.

There are no visible marks on the flat/secondary.

I might try a UV lamp to see if I can tease out any more detail from the worn text.

[ronin]

Well reading the catalogue you got a bad one, the focal length should be 48" not 49" :grin: :grin:

Should be Low Expansion glass and cost £36.00.

OK you can stop reading the bumblings of an idiot and read theri "catalogue" yourself.

http://geogdata.csun.edu/~voltaire/classics/brunnings/BRUNNINGS.pdfL

Looks like they used the 0.965" eyepieces etc.

Useful list of classic scope catalogues:

http://geogdata.csun.edu/~voltaire/classics/

[SnakeyJ]

Well reading the catalogue you got a bad one, the focal length should be 48" not 49" :grin: :grin:

Should be Low Expansion glass and cost £36.00.

OK you can stop reading the bumblings of an idiot and read theri "catalogue" yourself.

http://geogdata.csun.edu/~voltaire/classics/brunnings/BRUNNINGS.pdfL

Looks like they used the 0.965" eyepieces etc.

Thanks Ronin - I had seen that document and read the early Fullerscopes catalogues (65 and 85) as well - A great site/archive for classic catalogues!     The link for that Brunnings catalogue said that it was a 1960s price list, though the document is marked as March 1980 - so was not entirely sure that it would list the same items.    My Fullerscope is supplied with a mix of RAS and pushfit EPs, which may well not be original but I think this suggests an earlier manufacturer (mid to late 60s or early 70s).

Low expansion glass would be good - might re-figuring explain the longer focal length (perhaps one they didn't get right first time)?

[SnakeyJ]

A little Gimp trickery on the faded lable - though certainly not the latest/greatest in forensic image processing :

[ronin]

I would say the link title is incorrect, the list prices are decimal.

Decimal came in sometime in '71.

So a 60's price list would be £sd.

So the pdf has to be after '71.

The slight difference in focal length will just be manufacturing and figuring.

The intention was 48" but I would guess they came out anything from 46" to 50" in focal length.

[SnakeyJ]

Thanks Ronin - I was four in '71, so no real memory of decimalisation - though I do have a set of pre-decimal coins from '67 and a handfull of silver threepenny pieces for the Christmas pud

I sent a quick e-mail of thanks over to Robert Provin for providing this great site/resource and suggested correction for this link.

I'll forgive the mirror maker a 2% error in focal length, provided the shape and figure are ok!

[DaveS]

I bought a couple of mirrors from Brunnings. as I recall neither were particularly good, with zonal errors. Eventually I had the 8" one re-figured to 1/8th wave by (I think) David Hinds and re-coated.

Seeing that catalogue brings back floods of memories from when I used to haunt Brunnings. Remember them having emergency gas lights during the '73 strikes and power cuts.

[SnakeyJ]

I bought a couple of mirrors from Brunnings. as I recall neither were particularly good, with zonal errors. Eventually I had the 8" one re-figured to 1/8th wave by (I think) David Hinds and re-coated.

Seeing that catalogue brings back floods of memories from when I used to haunt Brunnings. Remember them having emergency gas lights during the '73 strikes and power cuts.

Thanks David - nice to hear first hand from someone with direct experience who frequented the shop.     Quite a nice photo of this here:

Reading the fullerscopes catalogues, this would seem to be the unnamed London manufacturer of their 1/4 wave standard optics:

"FULLERSCOPES now supply three grades of mirrors.    The parabolic 1/4 wave mirrors, which are made for FULLERSCOPES by a London firm of Optical Workers, are quite adequate for the beginer or those who wish to 'star gaze' as a hobby.   At the price these mirrors are unbeatable.   The are of Pyrex and aluminised and Silica hard coated.

 

The best quality of mirrors and flats are made specially for FULLERSCOPES by H. Wildey F.R.A.S. who's mirror and lens making prowess is internationally known and by Optical Services Ltd. who's mirrors are to be found in Professional Observatories and Research Centres throughout the World."

 

The Wildey mirrors are cited at tenth wave or better.

 

Great fun reading through these old catalogues.   They were painstakingly typed and hand annotated, though perhaps not proof read!     Apart from the enthusiastic salesman's patois, I find the writing and language is much broader and more interesting than much modern prose.     

 "WHY JUST BUY A TELESCOPE, WHEN YOU CAN choose A FULLERSCOPE?"

 

Dudley sounds quite a roguish character from most accounts - though evidently SPM had good faith in him; http://www.telescopehouse.com/acatalog/resources.html

[DaveS]

Oh Lord Jake, that photo brings back memories!

As I recall the shop was divided in two, the right hand as you went in was microscopes and telescopes (Pluss odds and ends of lenses etc), the left cameras, in those days medium and large format, with some 35mm. There was a divider down the middle.

There used to be a firm called "Optical Works" just up the road from me in Ealing, down a *very* narrow turning. I had them re-coat my mirrors a couple of times after dissasters. They eventually moved to Cornwall I think.

[SnakeyJ]

Thanks Dave - it is an evocative glimpse of the variety and utility that real high street businesses could provide before being chased out by the chains and internet!    Every town had a few good specialist shops, worthy of trips out to visit!

I've just been doing a little research at Companies House, and although Brunnings is still recorded (in liquidation), there is little information on this.   Broadhurst, Clarkson and Fuller Limited are still active and buoyant, but I was quite astonished to see that both Dudley and Diana Fuller are still company directors, with Dudley still the major shareholder.    He must be all of 85 years old and it's great to see he's still actively involved.

[DaveS]

Casting my mind back a way, Brunnings as it was closed (Early '80s?) but then re-opened again with a new look, I think they gutted it to make it more open, but the old atmosphere had gone. It looks as though your photo dates from just after the first closure.

I recall seeing a 6" refractor in an old fashioned alt-az head on a wooden tripod in the "New" Brunnings in the early 80's, priced I recall at £500, when the average weekly wage was about £75, and something like an OM1 was about the £150 mark.

[Merlin66]

My first 6" f8 way back in the 60's had a Wildey mirror....

I still have (thanks to Maurice) a signed 6" H Wildey mirror...

Ahhhh those were the days.

[Peter Drew]

Like many amateurs of my era I had the occasional nosey round the quaint shop that was Brunnings. I'm not totally certain that Brunnings actually made optics although they did sell them off the shelf. Optical Services were actually Optical Surfaces. We had dealings with Optical Works Ealing who supplied us with slumped blanks for Maksutovs and cast iron tools for working them. 

[SnakeyJ]

Thanks Merlin66 - feeling a little envious of those quality mirrors, well worth hanging on to!

Thanks also Peter - great to hear first hand of your recollections and at least this thread will give some background for anyone trying to find some information on Brunnings in future.     I looked up Optical Surfaces who seem to be at the forefront of development with 1/20 wave optics.   Interesting site as well with the old tunnels!  Optical Works Ealing now sadly dissolved, but also considerable history/information for this online.

Working with slumped blanks sounds tricky.

[Peter Drew]

The slumped blanks were for the corrector lenses, much too steep curvature to produce from flat blanks economically. 

[SnakeyJ]

The slumped blanks were for the corrector lenses, much too steep curvature to produce from flat blanks economically. 

I was looking this up and found quite a good guide c/w cautionary tales - http://www.turbofast.com.au/astrotel/corrector.html

[Peter Drew]

Thanks for that Jake, an interesting read. I think annealing is another important factor in producing a successful blank, I didn't see any mention of this. We were supplied with ready slumped and annealed blanks from Optical Works in 6", 8" and 12" aperture for our range of Maksutovs. The glass was opthalmic crown, a hard wearing material with good transmission. An attempt at a 16" ended in failure as after diamond milling of both curves the blank split into several pieces.