New Binoculars, 15x70's - A Dilemma

[trynda1701]

I have a problem.

Recently, I have been pursuing astronomy again for the first time in a LONG while with binoculars, having not used my Celestron C8 in many years. It started with Comet Panstarrs in March 2013, using my 25year+ Carl Zeiss Jena Jenoptem 10x50W's. Since then, I have supplemented my Vanguard photo tripod with the DynaSun WT011H 3/8 Professional variant of the Trigger Grip Ballhead, on a Manfrotto 679B Monopod that I got second hand for about 25GBP. I'm getting used to using the Jenoptems with the monopod, but I must say, it's a nice treat to not be quite as twisted using them as I had been in the past with my Vanguard tripod! Thanks again for the recommendations, Steve!

So, here's my dilemma. I want to get a new pair of binoculars. Since Panstarrs (four sightings), I've been out about a dozen times, and I'm enjoying getting out observing under a dark sky again, even if only from my back garden. As I am happy with how the 10x50W's are performing, and are still in good nick for their age, I want to go with some 15x70's. At first, I was looking at the Strathspey 15x70's mentioned on The Binocular Sky, which seemed good value at about £90, but have since learned that they are really equivalent to 15x63mm effective aperture. The big recommendation all over the forum here seems to be the Helios Apollo 15x70's, which of course are a bit more expensive!

So, should I just treat myself to the Helios Apollo's? I'm worried that if I lapse back into only VERY occasionally going out under the sky like I was before last year, it may be a waste of money, and I should settle for either the Strathspeys, or something else similar in value. Or should I look at the Helios pair as an investment, and even if I do only go out occasionally, I know that I am using a quality instrument, delivering the best optical performance for that type of binocular, which I could be using in 20 years still?

Pros and cons, I would like to hear from my fellow forum members about this. If I settle for something cheaper than the Helios Apollos, what is my best choice? Or try and persuade me that the Helios pair is still a great choice for me!

Discuss!

Mark

[Space Dragon]

Maybe if you go for the Apollos, you may find yourself out using them more than if you went for a lesser pair......just for the hi-fidelity of the views.

If you did find that your interest wained, they hold their value quite well, so reselling would not be difficult.

[BinocularSky]

Well, I have both the Strath and the Apollo: I use the Apollo much more frequently than I used the Strath before I had the Apollo.

[MadAlbert]

I have the Helios Apollo 15x70 for a few reasons:

1. I'm quite picky about the view and am not disappointed (but too poor to afford Leicas et al);
2. the Helios are waterproof (big plus regarding dew and living in coastal Wales);
3. they are very well made and represent excellent value for money (no affiliation).

You wont regret getting these, in fact you'll prolly find you use them more often than you anticipated. If things don't work out they will sell very quickly!

HTH

[neilm]

"So, should I just treat myself to the Helios Apollo's?" Yes! You'll only regret it if you don't. I went through various binoculars on the basis that I originally thought the Apollo's too expensive, cheapish ones, then some more slightly expensive, then another pair and finally took the plunge. Should have got them in the first place, would have saved myself money in the long run! 

Cheers

Neil

[ronl]

More money = better optics = better views = enjoyable observing.

click here http://www.firstlightoptics.com/helios/helios-apollo-high-resolution.html

= the best choice. End of story.

[Crebles]

Go for the Apollos. You'll only end up wondering what if...

[Iced Earth]

General consencus is Apollo's and deservedly so judging by opinions and reviews.

I done lots of research before purchasing my first set of bins and these were no.1 on my to buy list. Being a newcomer I did not want to splash out  that kind of money in case this hobby was not for me.. seems it is and I kinda wish I had purchased the Apollo's.

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

If you are used to the Jenoptem quality, go for the Apollos, otherwise you will be disappointed.

[NeuStar]

My Dad has Jenoptem 7X50 and whenever I get to Devon and point them at the night sky the amazing precision of the imaging is in your face straight up - even for a newby like me.

So when you said you were using Jenoptem 10X50, (assuming Zeiss collimation is still rock solid) -  I thought "Wow - lucky you!"

Over the last few weeks the name Fujinon keeps cropping up as being the gold star level of attainment in both build and optics which competes with the big German makers.  E.g Fujinon 16X70 Polaris

So my question here (for myself too) is - if you've been used to Zeiss precision optics - is the Helios Apollo going to be too much of a climb down?

Or - do the Helios Apollo 15X70's compete favorably side by side with a Fujinon 16X70?  I hope so, because of the money involved!

This would be a very interesting comparison I feel.

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

Steve (Binocular sky) has made the comparison and states the Fujinon is a bit better than the Helios Apollo, but the difference is very small indeed. I know there is a huge jump in quality between a BA-1 (Revelation/TS/Celestron/Omegon) cheap pair of 15x70s and a Helios Apollo 15x70 HD. I have never looked through the Fujinon 16x70. A law of diminishing returns, I suppose. I have looked through an older Vixen ARK 20x80 and it was a good match in quality with the Helios. I am tempted to replace my Helios Apollo by the Vixen 16x80, which weighs slightly less, apparently has the same quality, 10mm more aperture, and the eye lenses are not as far recessed as in the Helios Apollo (my only niggle)

[NeuStar]

Steve (Binocular sky) has made the comparison and states the Fujinon is a bit better than the Helios Apollo, but the difference is very small indeed. I know there is a huge jump in quality between a BA-1 (Revelation/TS/Celestron/Omegon) cheap pair of 15x70s and a Helios Apollo 15x70 HD. I have never looked through the Fujinon 16x70. A law of diminishing returns, I suppose. I have looked through an older Vixen ARK 20x80 and it was a good match in quality with the Helios. I am tempted to replace my Helios Apollo by the Vixen 16x80, which weighs slightly less, apparently has the same quality, 10mm more aperture, and the eye lenses are not as far recessed as in the Helios Apollo (my only niggle)

Thanks a lot for your reply re  my curiosity about these two binos.  How about collimation (more specifically) keeping collimation accurately through the knocks of daily usage?  I heard the Fujinon prisms were set in concrete! or there abouts. 

[BinocularSky]

How about collimation (more specifically) keeping collimation accurately through the knocks of daily usage?

Sorry, but I have absolutely no intention of finding out how much of a hammering my Apollo will take before collimation gets compromised!

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

Same here. Mine are fine, and have been for a few years. They feel rock solid, but I am not going to use them as a hammer just yet

[trynda1701]

I'm beginning to sense a pattern here!

So who's on the biggest commission then?

[NeuStar]

Same here. Mine are fine, and have been for a few years. They feel rock solid, but I am not going to use them as a hammer just yet

They sound good then.  I'm just going to be super cautious this time before parting with what for me is a lot of money.  Nothingwworse than binos that come slightly out, or even worse start out fine then after travelling from A to B perhaps to get to a dark skies site, go out of adjustment.  I used badly collimated binos for a year.  Never again!  So dissapointing.  I pick up on this issue because other forums have had people complain of large aperture binos - some arriving incorrectly collimated - some arriving okayish but not good - some arriving spot on but later went off - and the latter case spot on and stays spot on indefinately even after numerous car journeys etc.  I think you will agree there is a big spectrum of satisfaction here on only ONE of the many possible bino issues.  But for me it's a biggie (rugged internal build quality).  Hence my initial question and caution.  Thanks a lot for your input.  

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

In my experience, it is the cheaper BA-1 types (cheaper Revelation, Celestron, Omegon, TS) which are easily knocked out of collimation, not the BA-8 (Helios Apollo, APM/TS Marine).

[NeuStar]

In my experience, it is the cheaper BA-1 types (cheaper Revelation, Celestron, Omegon, TS) which are easily knocked out of collimation, not the BA-8 (Helios Apollo, APM/TS Marine).

Sorry to pick your brain again   - but I was also looking at the Helios Quantum 4 series, either the 15X70 and 20X80.

Where do they differ in the main from the Helios Apollo?  Obviously aperture in the latter case.....

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

Sorry to pick your brain again   - but I was also looking at the Helios Quantum 4 series, either the 15X70 and 20X80.

Where do they differ in the main from the Helios Apollo?  Obviously aperture in the latter case.....

The quantum 4s are not as good as the Apollo series, as far as I know. Please also note that some of the cheaper 20x80 have been measured  to be 19x73 (internal baffles restrict the effective aperture). I do not mind the 19, but I do mind the 73! 20x80 is also much harder to hold (weight + magnification). I have hand-held a pair of Vixen ARK 20x80s but they are exceptionally light (50g or so lighter than the Helios Apollo 15x70), and I have very steady hands. Even I could only hold them steady for a little while.

[SteveNickolls]

Hi Mark,

I say go for the Helios Apollo's. Since having my pair they have become the mainstay of my observing. Also as they are quick to set up to observe you can squeeze in sessions on nights when you would not bother with the hassle of setting up a telescope. The number of observing sessions I have been able to make this season compared to last year has greatly increased.

Best of luck deciding but remember those shopping days before Christmas are getting one less every day!

Cheers,

Steve

[NeuStar]

The quantum 4s are not as good as the Apollo series, as far as I know. Please also note that some of the cheaper 20x80 have been measured  to be 19x73 (internal baffles restrict the effective aperture). I do not mind the 19, but I do mind the 73! 20x80 is also much harder to hold (weight + magnification). I have hand-held a pair of Vixen ARK 20x80s but they are exceptionally light (50g or so lighter than the Helios Apollo 15x70), and I have very steady hands. Even I could only hold them steady for a little while.

Appreciate your valued input.  I think I can see the end of the minefield!  Many thanks.

[trynda1701]

I'm getting a feeling I should start saving for these, or drop a hint to Santa!

Two questions if I may. One, I'm going to get my interpupilliary distance measured, but what's the minimum the Apollos allow? (I have quite a narrow nose bridge).

And two, with the internal tripod bush on the Apollos, will they fit straight onto my Dynasun trigger/ball mount as is like my Jenoptems with the clamp Steve Tonkin recommends on the Binocular Sky site?

Mark

[Markinaboat]

Hi Mark,

Please see my own comments here re the cheaper BAK 7 15x70's  http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/185920-25x100-binoculars/page-2#entry2112073.

The Chinese manufacturers of the majority of these branded Bins are here http://www.united-optics.com/products/binoculars/Giant_Binoculars/Giant_Binoculars.html

I found this a very informative about a year ago when I was a complete newbie (still am I think!).

Mark

[scarp15]

Sorry to pick your brain again   - but I was also looking at the Helios Quantum 4 series, either the 15X70 and 20X80.

Where do they differ in the main from the Helios Apollo?  Obviously aperture in the latter case.....

The Quantum 4, 15X70 provide good contrast and a sharper image, compared to cheaper alternatives, yet the Apollo is a slight step up in terms of dark sky background and image quality. I also like the the individual eyepiece focusing on the Apollo's. Whilst the Quantum 4 is a bit lighter than the Apollo, it is perhaps more vulnerable to distorting the collimation if knocked, as it did not feel as ruggedly built and comes in a soft case. The Apollo is provided in a metal flight case.

I did upset the collimation on a pair of Quantum 4 bino's - dropped quite heavily (in case) off a car seat whilst braking on a country road descent (never again!)  If you have the expertise n' tools, then I guess you could re-collimate (which I think is internal). However I could not even get these professionally collimated, which would have cost a fortune anyhow. So on balance go with the Apollo, I too enjoy using these whenever I can. 

[scarp15]

Just to add that the only slight niggle with my 15x70 Apollo's, is that the objective lens rubber dust covers felt a bit loose and easily kept dropping off. I had these replaced and they are a bit better at staying on. It might just be my pair or it may be a factor with these?