Dedicated CCD, What's the advantage?

[emadmoussa]

OK, back to the astro banter...

Somebody has suggested to me the Orion G3 Monochrome CCD camera for, obviously, deep sky imaging. I am not very interested in a dedicated CCD, and dont' know much about them. Still, his offer seems like a bargain and I might give it a shot if it's worth it.

I just want to know if anybody out there uses such a camera, pros and cons?

Wondering what advantage it would give me over the EOS 1100D (unmodded)...Is it worth it really, especially it's a monochrome?

Ah yes, it's a cooled camera...which one of the advantages that I find worthy.

[steppenwolf]

There are certainly some good reasons for having a dedicated CCD camera although as you already have a DSLR camera, this particular one wouldn't necessarily be my first choice.

Pros

Sensitive, astronomy optimised sensor

Sensitive to Hydrogen Alpha emissions

Low noise because of Peltier cooling (as you have mentioned)

Can be used effectively with a wide range of narrow-band filters

Cons

Requires an external power supply

Requires connection to a PC at all times

Expensive even with a small sensor

Requires at least three exposures and three filters for colour images

Requires a filter wheel

Can realistically only be used for astro-photography

The sensor in the one you mention is quite small especially in comparison with your DSLR camera

[emadmoussa]

There are certainly some good reasons for having a dedicated CCD camera although as you already have a DSLR camera, this particular one wouldn't necessarily be my first choice.

Pros

Sensitive, astronomy optimised sensor

Sensitive to Hydrogen Alpha emissions

Low noise because of Peltier cooling (as you have mentioned)

Can be used effectively with a wide range of narrow-band filters

Cons

Requires an external power supply

Requires connection to a PC at all times

Expensive even with a small sensor

Requires at least three exposures and three filters for colour images

Requires a filter wheel

Can realistically only be used for astro-photography

The sensor in the one you mention is quite small especially in comparison with your DSLR camera

Thanks Steve. I could live with permanent power supply and connection to PC, but like you say the sensor is smaller than the DSLR. Except for the cooling functionality, the pros still don't outweigh the cons in comparison with a DSLR...or at least, that's how I see it.

[steppenwolf]

You can do an amazing amount with a DSLR and a whole load more with a modified DSLR . One shot colour (DSLR/OSC CCD camera) versus mono and filters is another interesting discussion (have search on SGL for that one) but I am a great believer in getting the most out of what you have and spending your "Orion G3 Monochrome" money on modifying your DSLR camera would be a better plan IMHO if you want to move to the next stage.

Of course, if money were no object, a nice big mono CCD camera, electronic filter wheel and a set of Astrodon LRGB filters would be a great move!

[ollypenrice]

I think the cons might well outweigh the pros in the case of this camera. You need to use a dedicated CCD with a reasonable chip size, though, to appreciate how much better they are than DSLRs. The Con with a capital C is the cost!

Olly

[emadmoussa]

You can do an amazing amount with a DSLR and a whole load more with a modified DSLR . One shot colour (DSLR/OSC CCD camera) versus mono and filters is another interesting discussion (have search on SGL for that one) but I am a great believer in getting the most out of what you have and spending your "Orion G3 Monochrome" money on modifying your DSLR camera would be a better plan IMHO if you want to move to the next stage.

Of course, if money were no object, a nice big mono CCD camera, electronic filter wheel and a set of Astrodon LRGB filters would be a great move!

I guess I'll stick with my DSLR, probably modify it in the future. Thanks for the tip, Steve. I've learnt so much from your book

[emadmoussa]

One question though if I may, DSLR are not great for planetary...last trial on Saturn with the EOS 1100D was pathetic. Is this Orion CCD camera up to the job or just deep space due to exposure capabilities? I'm actually after a cheap Planetary alternative to the QHY5...(I use it for guiding mostly).

[lukebl]

If you're interested in planetary imaging, you could try the IMG132e, which are pretty inexpensive (there's one on UK Astro Buy and Sell at the moment). They can give reasonable results, luke this one captured with a 3x Barlow and 250mm f/4.7 Newtonian. Alternatively, your QHY5 will take quite good mono images.

[emadmoussa]

If you're interested in planetary imaging, you could try the IMG132e, which are pretty inexpensive (there's one on UK Astro Buy and Sell at the moment). They can give reasonable results, luke this one captured with a 3x Barlow and 250mm f/4.7 Newtonian. Alternatively, your QHY5 will take quite good mono images.

That's pretty good. Would you mind linking me to the page please?

[emadmoussa]

Oh, no worries, found it.

[swag72]

Initially I was using a modded DSLR and fairly quickly made the move to a CCD. I wanted to try some narrowband, and the Ha filter in the DSLR just wasn't giving me the quality of image I was after. So for me the advantages were;

1) Lack of noise

2) Overall sensitivity

3) Versatility

Yes they are considerable in price and the chip size is far smaller than you get on a DSLR. I thought I'd find the whole mono processing and filters lark really difficult, but in reality I find it far easier than colour image processing. I think the data is far more forgiving generally.

I never for one minute regret moving to CCD. I do regret wasting my money initially on a DSLR followed by a modification and various filters. I wish I'd gone for a CCD from the start.

I'm not knocking anyone who uses a DSLR. There's some great images produced by them, but thats just my thoughts based on my own money wasting experience

[ollypenrice]

Initially I was using a modded DSLR and fairly quickly made the move to a CCD. I wanted to try some narrowband, and the Ha filter in the DSLR just wasn't giving me the quality of image I was after. So for me the advantages were;

1) Lack of noise

2) Overall sensitivity

3) Versatility

Yes they are considerable in price and the chip size is far smaller than you get on a DSLR. I thought I'd find the whole mono processing and filters lark really difficult, but in reality I find it far easier than colour image processing. I think the data is far more forgiving generally.

I never for one minute regret moving to CCD. I do regret wasting my money initially on a DSLR followed by a modification and various filters. I wish I'd gone for a CCD from the start.

I'm not knocking anyone who uses a DSLR. There's some great images produced by them, but thats just my thoughts based on my own money wasting experience

This is exactly what a guest said to me last year. I can't comment from personal learning experience because I went straight into CCD on the basis of advice from Ian King. I'm glad I did though.

Great Jupiter from Luke there, given that this wasn't with a top end camera and a C14.

Olly

[laser_jock99]

Just to add the Canon 6D has got to be a serious consideration these days:

http://www.procamerashop.co.uk/canon-eos-6d-digital-slr-camera-body.html

A full frame sensor 35x24mm sensor for around £1k !! And the noise levels seem improved vs older Canons too.

I have found a company in the US MaxMax who will remove the Anti Alias filter, IR filter and disolve off the Bayer Matrix for a small fee too.

http://www.maxmax.com/IRCameraConversions.htm

So you could get a full frame, de-bayered monochrome, Ha sensitive camera fairly 'cheaply'. Pity adding a peltier cooler is not straightforward.

[steppenwolf]

For planetary work you really do need a fast frame-rate camera and believe it or not, you already have one in the Canon 1100D!

There is an excellent (and free) capture program that works amazingly well with the Liveview function on Canon cameras called EOS Camera Record as this provides a reasonably fast-rate solution.

I am not a Lunar or planetary imager and I have only used the software once but here's what I got on the Moon that first time (2 panes) with my EOS 450D:-

[emadmoussa]

For planetary work you really do need a fast frame-rate camera and believe it or not, you already have one in the Canon 1100D!

There is an excellent (and free) capture program that works amazingly well with the Liveview function on Canon cameras called EOS Camera Record as this provides a reasonably fast-rate solution.

I am not a Lunar or planetary imager and I have only used the software once but here's what I got on the Moon that first time (2 panes) with my EOS 450D:-

I've just actually made a deal on a second hand QHY IMG132E -- it's a dedicate planetary imager and has great reviews. And also since it's a colour fast planetary camera, it complements my imaging gear. I hope I made the right decision...as I always struggled with DSLR planetary imaging. And worse of all webcams

[johnrt]

Yes, same for me, bought and modded a DSLR & tried a Ha filter, results were OK. Got rid of it and moved up to a mono Atik 314l+ and have never looked back. I do have lots of respect for DSLR imagers and the quality images some of them produce, I have no idea how they manage it, I certainly couldn't with the same gear.

But for me, serious imaging means mono CCD & filters.

[emadmoussa]

Yes, same for me, bought and modded a DSLR & tried a Ha filter, results were OK. Got rid of it and moved up to a mono Atik 314l+ and have never looked back. I do have lots of respect for DSLR imagers and the quality images some of them produce, I have no idea how they manage it, I certainly couldn't with the same gear.

But for me, serious imaging means mono CCD & filters.

Very nice images you've got there, John. I like my DSLR, it produces really nice images.

[davew]

Very nice images you've got there, John. I like my DSLR, it produces really nice images.

I think you may have answered your own question. If you like the 1100D ( Which many would aspire to ! ) get out there and don't listen to " Suggestions "

Dave

[emadmoussa]

I think you may have answered your own question. If you like the 1100D ( Which many would aspire to ! ) get out there and don't listen to " Suggestions "

Dave

Since I'm not a expert on dedicated CCD cameras and having been offered a second hand one at a very cheap price, I thought it might be worth the shot, hence the questions. That's all. But obviously having read what CCD people had to say, well...like you said I have an answer now.

I'm glad I started this thread though. It lead me to find the kind of planetary camera I was looking for...

[nytecam]

The major difference between DSLR and astro-CCD is the sensitivity of CCDs and it is major. This reflects in the exposure necessary to go deep. However as long sessions with many subs is recommended here then given enough exposure time the DSLR, at very modest cost for sensor size, would be a match for the astro-CCD. Colour control apparently seems more difficult and probably involves a steeper learning curve than stacked LRGB etc but doesn't actually cost anything but time.

[kirkster501]

I am using a 450d and its great! That said, a mono CCD is the way to go but been holding off due to incessant cloudy weather these last three months before making that investment. I have enough to learn as it is with the scopes, mount and DSLR !

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ollypenrice]

The major difference between DSLR and astro-CCD is the sensitivity of CCDs and it is major. This reflects in the exposure necessary to go deep. However as long sessions with many subs is recommended here then given enough exposure time the DSLR, at very modest cost for sensor size, would be a match for the astro-CCD. Colour control apparently seems more difficult and probably involves a steeper learning curve than stacked LRGB etc but doesn't actually cost anything but time.

I'm not sure that I believe this. FIrstly there's a difference in well depth. Then there's the difficulty in getting perfect dark subtraction since there is no set point cooling.

It's true that with lots of signal DSLR images rise to a very high standard but that, so far as I've seen on the net, is seen when the strong signal comes from a fast F ratio. Very long exposures are not possible in DSLRs because the temperature rises (bad) and so varies within a single exposure (arguably worse?)

Olly